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Breaky posted:No just a Saints fan. Hehe, me too. Who Dat!
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Jul 15, 2014 04:25
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http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/i-was-a-pro-russian-separatist-fighter-in-ukraine/374411/ Interesting article from the Eastern Europe thread in D&D.
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Jul 15, 2014 19:32
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Hell of a read, thanks for bringing that here for us.
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Jul 15, 2014 22:43
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 Here are freshly delivered Russian Su-25s painted up in Iraqi colors. You see their paint is much fresher than the Iranian supplied planes. Finally a photo emerges. Consider it my apology for the text below. Snowdens Secret posted:That's a pretty good Cyranopost but we're getting a touch D&D in here. Some notes, though: Yes but the Kurdish insurgency in Turkey would have a nation state with control of its own oil revenue to fund it and supply it with arms. The Kurds in Syria could join in (if they got over the huge clan animosity between themselves and the Turkish Kurds, and the Turkish kurds got over their hate of Barzani). Stuff could happen. Cyrano4747 posted:tl;dr: multi-cultural, non-corrupt, democratic governance is loving difficult and attempting all 3 at once is a fool's errand that tends to collapse badly. The countries that have managed to evolve into these have done so in stages over centuries and the deep-rooted cultural acceptance for a) living peacefully next to people different from you b) demanding and expecting transparent government and c) participating in elections and respecting their outcomes is something that takes generations to achieve. You really have to pick one and run with it in the short term. If keeping Iraq in one piece with the colonial borders is that important we're probably going to need to accept some form of Saddam 2.0, while if democracy and/or transparent civil administration are the goals we're probably going to need to be willing to form a Kurdistan, a Shia-stan, etc. which is going to be a bloody and painful process. Of course it's difficult. But the population of Iraq is better off in the long term in a real state, not in a series of partitioned mini ethnic states, to be bullied by their neighbors. Simple mass is important in international relations. And the modern genesis of an idea to partition Iraq into three states is Israel's Yinon plan. Which is not exactly a way to win over the population. Hey would you like to cut up your country so that your nation state can never be a military power and threaten Israel again? Oh you would? Okay, let's do it. It's not going to take them that long to figure out that a bit of federalism is all they need. Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 09:40
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WEREWAIF posted:Of course it's difficult. But the population of Iraq is better off in the long term in a real state, not in a series of partitioned mini ethnic states, to be bullied by their neighbors. Simple mass is important in international relations. This is a valid point, but in actual practice the trend since the end of the Cold War has been toward smaller and more religiously/ethnically homogenous states. The Balkans are the archetype of this; in addition to Yugoslavia parting itself out, we've had Montenegro and Kosovo emerge just within the last decade. There are, de facto, two Cypruses now, a Greek and a Turkish one. South Sudan split mostly along religious lines. While there are many foreign policy benefits to remaining as one larger country, there are just as many domestic policy problems, and as Cyrano said, it takes time and effort to establish a culture of inclusive democracy (and this is effort that many leaders simply are not willing to put out as long as they can blame all their problems on some minority, which they can then oppress into the stone age). I like big loadouts and I cannot lie: 
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Jul 16, 2014 12:46
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TheNakedJimbo posted:I like big loadouts and I cannot lie: I knew the Scooter was small, but drat, those missiles look huge.  The weird rear overhang of the AIM-9s on the wingtip pylons doesn't help either.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:10
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Crescendo posted:I knew the Scooter was small, but drat, those missiles look huge. Hey, free winglets.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:24
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WEREWAIF posted:It's not going to take them that long to figure out that a bit of federalism is all they need. TheNakedJimbo posted:While there are many foreign policy benefits to remaining as one larger country, there are just as many domestic policy problems, and as Cyrano said, it takes time and effort to establish a culture of inclusive democracy (and this is effort that many leaders simply are not willing to put out as long as they can blame all their problems on some minority, which they can then oppress into the stone age). Bingo. It's pretty easy to sit back and say "look, it's simple, all they need to do is respect the ballot box and form a unity government" but that's a bit like saying "look, all the Israelis need to do is give the Arabs their loving land back." Simple, obvious solutions are frequently neither so simple nor so obvious to the people who need to actually make and live with them. Take the basic concept of voting for poo poo. It takes a long time to make respecting votes a core cultural value and an even longer time to make accepting minority parties you disagree with part of that. Your alternatives are pretty much either elections that are obviously and near-openly rigged seven ways from sunday with no one really giving a poo poo (see the most recent Afghan election, plus just about every other tinpot dictatorship "election" you care to name), or situations where whoever gets elected dismantles the democratic apparatus that got them into power, represses their opposition, and creates de facto single party rule (see Egypt as a recent example, Nazi Germany as a prominent historic one). This isn't to say that the situation is totally bleak and awful. Having those bullshit elections that are blatantly rigged or where the choices are between the anointed candidates of a single party helps develop the habit of voting and grows an expectation of some measure of participation in politics. People whose grandparents accepted a military dictatorship with a shrug grow up to be the protestors who demand electoral reforms. The problem is that this is a long, slow process and not something you can impose on an area over night, so it kinda does gently caress-all to solve the current problem.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:48
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 Do you think there's an official name for Russian cockpit seafoam teal? TheNakedJimbo posted:This is a valid point, but in actual practice the trend since the end of the Cold War has been toward smaller and more religiously/ethnically homogenous states. The Balkans are the archetype of this; in addition to Yugoslavia parting itself out, we've had Montenegro and Kosovo emerge just within the last decade. There are, de facto, two Cypruses now, a Greek and a Turkish one. South Sudan split mostly along religious lines. While there are many foreign policy benefits to remaining as one larger country, there are just as many domestic policy problems, and as Cyrano said, it takes time and effort to establish a culture of inclusive democracy (and this is effort that many leaders simply are not willing to put out as long as they can blame all their problems on some minority, which they can then oppress into the stone age). For what it's worth, Yugoslavia didn't have to break up the way it did. The spoils of SFR Yugoslavia were divided several years before there was a Yugoslav war and even longer before intervention. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEYQ46gH08 There's a Serbian biased but interesting documentary about it if anyone cares to take a look. In any case it took significant outside pressure to presage the breakup of unified countries into ethnic or religious blocs. The breakups are often to the benefit of bigger neighbors. Of course there are perfectly legitimate breakups. East Timor, after being scourged 100 Years War style, for example. Though by those standards, Indonesia should be independent of itself. Oh well. Anyway here are some SFR Yugoslavian F-86 Sabres and f-84 Thunderjets. Serious cold war.    
Dejan Bimble fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 06:19
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WEREWAIF posted:For what it's worth, Yugoslavia didn't have to break up the way it did. The spoils of SFR Yugoslavia were divided several years before there was a Yugoslav war and even longer before intervention. Yugoslavia only existed for a pretty short time as it was jammed together from various independent territories/nations from the Austro-Hungarian empire. It was effectively a loose confederation of states who had a great deal of independence internally right from the beginning and it remained the case right up until the breakup - even after some major crackdowns during the Soviet era to quell independence movements. There were also a number of notable movements for various states to break away starting during the 1930s right through the 80s, so it's not like the breakup came out of nowhere. Basically it should never have been a surprise that Yugoslavia broke up after the strongman's death shook things up. The Serbians blaming outsiders for the whole thing is kind Serbia's schtick and it shouldn't really be a surprise that the dominant group in the country (politically and militarily) wanted to keep the status quo. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 15:05
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1986 Never forget
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Jul 17, 2014 15:28
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I found this BBC documentary series on the fall of Yugoslavia really interesting and well made. It's 5 hours long though, and since it was made in 1995 it doesn't cover the things that happened after. It may have been posted here before, can't remember. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzvNZz-X-50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVthH4bexTw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK1gR9aYUA0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfSLxK417AI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8hlCWcYlFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoCR0jqEaiA
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Jul 17, 2014 16:03
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Dark Helmut posted:1986 Never forget Everybody needs a Yugo sometime like when your dumbass sun wrecks his new Firebird racing around high on hairspray and getting him a ford escort doesn't seem like punishment enough
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Jul 17, 2014 16:05
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Anybody want to do rundown on Soviet/Russian anti-aircraft missiles, given the news coming out of Ukraine? I figure there's a battery commander who's about to lose his job.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:29
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Veritek83 posted:Anybody want to do rundown on Soviet/Russian anti-aircraft missiles, given the news coming out of Ukraine? Well he's about to be terminated one way or another, for sure.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:38
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Ukrainians claim 9K37 Buk/SA-11 medium-range SAM operated by separatists.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:10
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Which of course begs the question, who the gently caress taught a bunch of hicks how to conduct a very complex acquisition and firing sequence.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:11
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Sjurygg posted:Which of course begs the question, who the gently caress taught a bunch of hicks how to conduct a very complex acquisition and firing sequence. That's part of the argument though, right? That they're not so much separatists as they are Russian troops in track suits.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:16
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I hope there is some evidence proving one side or the other did it. In my mind I believe it would be the "separatists" if only because that has been their MO of late, albeit shooting down Ukranian cargo planes. They seem crazy/dumb enough to do it. Not to purposefully shoot down a civilian airliner but just to lob missiles at whatever is flying over without thinking about it. I'm not  enough to get into false flag scenarios and it seems like the chances the Ukranians would make this error would be far less likely. They haven't been shooting down separatist cargo planes on the reg since the seps probably aren't using them..But some definitive proof is required, hopefully from a "neutral" source.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:30
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WEREWAIF posted:Do you think there's an official name for Russian cockpit seafoam teal? A couple months back I actually went looking for the rgb or cmyk or whatever color for that very same thing and came up with nothing. I'm sure there's a source which has it, but it's also probably in Cyrillic.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:42
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Is it some kind of sperg indicator that the first thing I was interested in hearing about what the type of missile they used to engage a 777 at 33,000? When they said Buk I basically yelled "I knew it!" to myself, and then got a little sad I cared so much. But yeah, this is going to be a pretty big deal, Buks shooting at passing airliners is a real good way to get the UN and NATO more interested in your little situation. They are definitely in the area according to AP photos.  VVVV Yeah, Malaysian really isn't having a good year. I know most US carriers and Lufthansa have avoided the region, as per the news on the way home. Mazz fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 19:01
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Personally I was surprised they still routed airliners over the region. Apparently some carriers have been avoiding it already.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:04
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Psion posted:A couple months back I actually went looking for the rgb or cmyk or whatever color for that very same thing and came up with nothing. I'm sure there's a source which has it, but it's also probably in Cyrillic. I snooped about, and a museum had examples with different shades in the same cockpit. So either it is a color that fades in time, or else it's not as uniform as having an RGB.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:21
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priznat posted:Personally I was surprised they still routed airliners over the region. Apparently some carriers have been avoiding it already. Flights are being rerouted in real time as we speak, the entire corridor will be near-empty by midnight local time if this keeps up.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:53
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Mazz posted:But yeah, this is going to be a pretty big deal, Buks shooting at passing airliners is a real good way to get the UN and NATO more interested in your little situation.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:56
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Welp now I guess the question is where the separatists got the Buk. The Ukrainian military wouldn't be shooting down planes because the separatists don't have any. So either they got it from Ukrainian armories or Russia has an awful lot of explaining to do.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:57
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Nebakenezzer posted:I snooped about, and a museum had examples with different shades in the same cockpit. So either it is a color that fades in time, or else it's not as uniform as having an RGB. Could be different batches of paint, or variances in quality control. I would have guessed SA-2 for some reason, but BUK makes perfect sense. drat you, Wargame: Airland Battle. You've enabled my sperg.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:01
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Arglebargle III posted:Welp now I guess the question is where the separatists got the Buk. The Ukrainian military wouldn't be shooting down planes because the separatists don't have any. So either they got it from Ukrainian armories or Russia has an awful lot of explaining to do. Better question, who trained the Ukrainian separatists to use the Buk? I mean, unless I'm missing something, it's not like a SAM system is "point radar at thingie in sky, push button, explode plane" on the level of simplicity of an AK. Russian "advisors" perhaps?
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Jul 17, 2014 20:05
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It's complex but not impossible. It's also possible that one of these guys, at some point in his life, got paid to operate a SAM system. They still have conscription and poo poo don't they?
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Jul 17, 2014 20:08
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Sjurygg posted:Which of course begs the question, who the gently caress taught a bunch of hicks how to conduct a very complex acquisition and firing sequence. They have mandatory national service so its likely every 'rebel' has had some military training, so its not exactly a stretch that some of them spent their service in an air defence unit. Unrelated cold-war fact, I was speaking with my Dad who was career soldier in the British Army until the 80s and when we were discussing the current situation in Afghanistan he said saw Afghan Mujahideen with trainers in training areas in Northern England a number of times in the mid 80s. I'd read about this happening, but was interesting to get a first hand account.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:12
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There is also probably a lot of ~40 year olds that served under the Soviets in the area.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:14
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Yeah, but how long has it been since they used that system last time? And how long have they had access to Buk's? As far as I can tell we're talking days since they published pictures of them themselves, and I kind of wonder if that's enough time to get back on track with a set of manuals, some alone-time over the controls and a fifth of decent vodka.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:25
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Sjurygg posted:Yeah, but how long has it been since they used that system last time? And how long have they had access to Buk's? As far as I can tell we're talking days since they published pictures of them themselves, and I kind of wonder if that's enough time to get back on track with a set of manuals, some alone-time over the controls and a fifth of decent vodka. Well I imagine shooting down easy stuff is a warmup.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:27
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Already downed at least one Antonov of the UAF in the past few days. Cold War II is so motherfucking on. (Maybe this means we'll finally get the equipment we're supposed to hahaaahahaahahahahahaha oh who the gently caress am I trying to kid).
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Jul 17, 2014 20:38
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Apparently one of the Donetsk Republic guys put up a statement earlier today gloating about downing a Ukranian military flight that would correspond to the Malaysian flight going down. Quickly removed from Soviet Facebook. The same guy also apparently posted photos of BUKs earlier in the week.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:45
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Word is the pro-Russians found the flight recorder and are sending it Moscow to be examined.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:51
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Alaan posted:Word is the pro-Russians found the flight recorder and are sending it Moscow to be examined. holocaust bloopers posted:"high altitude stall something something"
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Jul 17, 2014 21:02
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Alaan posted:Word is the pro-Russians found the flight recorder and are sending it Moscow to be examined. Welp, looks like a sudden loss of hull integrity, nothing that indicates any foul play. Should've bought a proper plane, you never know when these American tincans break apart.
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Jul 17, 2014 21:36
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Boeing jets are notorious for a vulnerability to high altitude FOD. Clearly.
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Jul 17, 2014 21:41
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Alaan posted:Word is the pro-Russians found the flight recorder and are sending it Moscow to be examined. What's Russian for Rose Mary Woods?
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