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US for profit schools rely on two things, the gullibility of their students and federally supported loans or the federally funded GI Bill. So yeah, I'd say it's the public's problem since they're paying for these people's useless degrees.
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Jul 17, 2014 12:19
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Zo posted:Actually most of the for profit colleges target adults. Especially veterans - for profits get the majority of GI bill funds. Average age of students for university of phoenix is mid-30s, for instance. I spent a couple weeks working in an education center on a military base and University of Phoenix had a loving office there, and there were for-profit college pamphlets all over the place. Also one lady was getting ready to start her degree at Liberty University, so there's a whole other can of "military-friendly" worms.
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Jul 17, 2014 13:36
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FrozenVent posted:US for profit schools rely on two things, the gullibility of their students and federally supported loans or the federally funded GI Bill. And there you have the solution. Simply make these schools ineligible for Federal Student Loans and watch them shrivel up and die. No need to outlaw them. If the economy can support them without the subsidy, then great! I think it's stupid, but if people want to go buy a useless degree, or build an ugly fountain (different example - I know), and it generally doesn't harm other people, then I wouldn't want the government to stop them.
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Jul 17, 2014 13:49
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Folly posted:And there you have the solution. Simply make these schools ineligible for Federal Student Loans and watch them shrivel up and die. On the other side of the coin, even as a vet, I know there are military dudes who would cry their eyes out if they couldn't get a degree from some online bullshit college. A lot of that has to do with the broken system of "individual development" the military has fostered; if you want to make it higher up the chain, the easiest way to get points with minimal effort is to pay for some college credits, which translate directly into promotion points, regardless of their actual relevance to your MOS.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:13
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OneWhoKnows posted:Did you get any indication if that was her choice or if there was some kind of outside pressure? Not really. I spoke to her father, and he seemed supportive of her decision, but it definitely didn't seem like he'd been the driver behind it. I'm sure there was some coming from the school itself, but I wasn't able to undo that.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:22
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In the state of Colorado, ALL state colleges must accept in state community college credit for certain core courses. If you take ENG 101 at Red Rocks community college, it will transfer to CU Boulder. What's funny is that I went to CU Denver. People would try to take courses there for a year or two, then transfer to CU Boulder. CU Boulder wouldn't take most CU Denver credits at all because "CU Denver classes are not as academically rigorous." So your ENG 101 from a community college was fine, but not the one from their redheaded Juggalo stepchild (that really is how Boulder treats CU Denver) that requires an index score (combination of SAT or ACT with HS GPA) only 8 points lower to guaranteed acceptance into. I did take 5 high school classes that gave me simulatneous community college credit. Earned 15 credits. Total cost: $36 ($9.00 processing fee each semester I took atleast one). Probably the sole reason I graduated with only 11K in student loan debt for a 4 year degree.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:33
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Wasabi the J posted:On the other side of the coin, even as a vet, I know there are military dudes who would cry their eyes out if they couldn't get a degree from some online bullshit college. To be fair, I know an ex-Marine here in Japan who was doing UoP just to get a degree of any kind, so he could qualify for normal English teaching jobs. Then he said gently caress it, moved back down to Okinawa, and got a contractor job that didn't require a degree and probably pays better than English teaching.  The thing is though, plenty of regular public universities/CC's allow you to take classes online.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:51
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Pompous Rhombus posted:To be fair, I know an ex-Marine here in Japan who was doing UoP just to get a degree of any kind, so he could qualify for normal English teaching jobs. University of Maryland University College is the go-to one for the Air Force; and they do face-to-face classes on base, too. The problem with legit schools is that so many of their programs are only partly online. The poo poo schools worm their way into the military sector because they put entire programs online (regardless of how lovely that makes things). "Military friendly" basically means flexible schedules and/or online-only classes + familiarity with the process to get paid directly by the military. At least in this context they're not leaving most of their students in crippling debt (just the US Government). VideoTapir fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 15:23
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Trilineatus posted:This is why I went to a public state school (equal to Cornell in reputation). They took my 3 years of dubious community college credits My wife went from community college to a big public state school. Technically, they took all of the dubious community college credits, but none of them qualified for meeting major requirements, for one reason or another. Big public state school was also much cheaper than the community college for her to attend, since they gave out more than just the federal grants, to the extent that she was actually getting paid to go there.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:22
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Zauper posted:Fair point. US news and world report still doesn't have any public colleges listed above Cornell (though some of the Cornell colleges are public). UC Berkeley? If he indeed went to Cal, (or in fact, transferred to any UC), then transferring CC credit to UCs is preetty easy. This site was built pre-2000 but is still used to help you confirm whether the classes you're taking fulfill the initial breadth courses - http://www.assist.org/web-assist/welcome.html Also, USNW ranking is pretty bullshit and based on extremely superficial factors. But yeah, if you're in California, CC is a legitimate academic path mostly because of assist.org helping you really determine whether your course of study leads you towards getting into either a UC or CSU.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:43
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The idea that community college courses are always easy and fluffy is not accurate for every program or every college/university. There were always a subset of courses within a category that were the "transfer to university" courses. So even if you can fulfill an associate's degree requirements with "MATH 092 - Shapes and Colors" you had to take "MATH 231 - This Will Not Be Easy For You" to transfer to your degree program at the university. Some of those math courses were taught by the same professors who were teaching at the university. I had a couple intense accounting courses that made me way more prepared for 400 level ACCT courses than my peers who took them at the University. My wife did her first semester of college at the univeristy. She had a Biology class that was held in the university's theater with 600 students. The professor did the lectures, and a platoon of TAs ran everything else in the class. So reputable universities can suck too for general education requirements.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:23
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Is there any actual distinction between 'for-profit' colleges and run of the mill private (non-ivy) ones? Or is the distinction just that of employment/graduation metrics?
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Jul 17, 2014 17:32
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"For-profit" colleges are actual for profit, while your average private college is a non-profit organization that just happens to be private. Kind of like Greenpeace or the AARP. Or the NRA. Diploma mills also tend to have lovely or non-existent accreditation, and advertise really aggressively. Ever seen a Harvard TV commercial?
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Jul 17, 2014 17:36
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mastershakeman posted:Is there any actual distinction between 'for-profit' colleges and run of the mill private (non-ivy) ones? Or is the distinction just that of employment/graduation metrics? Transferability of credits is a major one.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:37
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Wasabi the J posted:Transferability of credits is a major one. I'm not so sure that's a usable metric, though. Having to go figure out what random places like Depaul, or Depauw, accept as credit transfers vs UoPhoenix isn't anything I've ever seen done. Being for-profit vs nonprofit doesn't seem to really matter, the only difference is worse job outcomes at a worse price as far as I can tell, but schools definitely don't want to be ranked based on those and are just going to say there's a distinction (without a difference) in non/for profit.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:43
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If they have shareholders, you do not want your degree from there.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:40
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Harvard Extension School advertises locally, I know that's not exactly what you're talking about, but advertising doesn't always mean red flag. Extension is mostly online, evening, weekend, etc. classes and is geared toward adult learners & the community rather than 18-25 year old traditional undergrads. Basically you need to do at least some low level research before committing thousands of dollars to an education.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:06
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xie posted:Basically you need to do at least some low level research before committing thousands of dollars to an education. In this case I'm guessing thinking about it for 5 minutes would have sufficed.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:11
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xie posted:Harvard Extension School advertises locally, I know that's not exactly what you're talking about, but advertising doesn't always mean red flag. Extension is mostly online, evening, weekend, etc. classes and is geared toward adult learners & the community rather than 18-25 year old traditional undergrads. There's advertising and advertising. Most schools do advertise to some extent; one of my classmate was featured in a commercial for the school and we mocked her for months. It's a public school. ITT tech and the like, however, have extremely aggressive advertising campaign, centered on what you're going to do AFTER university, not what the college is actually going to give you. I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yCKUmGcUU0 ITT tech's ads are even more brazen, but I couldn't find one on Youtube.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:19
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FrozenVent posted:ITT tech and the like, however, have extremely aggressive advertising campaign, centered on what you're going to do AFTER university, not what the college is actually going to give you. I mean: This would be a reasonable tack if they actually had data to back it up. Statistics about things like "median starting salary for a student going here with this major" would be hard to argue with if the data were real. TV advertising for this sort of thing is poo poo though. How did we allow our population to subject themselves to an hour or more of advertising a day?
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Jul 17, 2014 19:39
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FrozenVent posted:Diploma mills also tend to have lovely or non-existent accreditation, and advertise really aggressively. Ever seen a Harvard TV commercial? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnNk2Al2yF8
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Jul 17, 2014 20:28
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VideoTapir posted:Buying a really cheap bike is also bad-with-money; if you actually end up riding a lot. You'll spend as much on upgrades and repairs as you would have buying a moderately-priced bike. Around 300 bucks is probably the floor below which things start going to hell. (give or take 100, as I've not bought a bike in the US lately) Oh I'm intimately aware of the perils of cheap bikes. I purchased a $350 bikes direct Windsor Wellington 2 several years ago which proceeded to have the entire drive train poo poo itself because they shipped it with a bent derailure hanger and I was to ignorant to know any better. Still a step up from the grocery store special, but not by much. Don't cheap out no matter how tempting it is on bikes. Kona makes excellent entry level flat commuters if you're not into drop bar road bikes. /derail
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Jul 17, 2014 20:46
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MC Hawking posted:Oh I'm intimately aware of the perils of cheap bikes. I purchased a $350 bikes direct Windsor Wellington 2 several years ago which proceeded to have the entire drive train poo poo itself because they shipped it with a bent derailure hanger and I was to ignorant to know any better. Still a step up from the grocery store special, but not by much. In my opinion, there are three ways to buy a bike: 1) Craigslist, but only if you have a friend who really, REALLY knows about bikes (i.e. could tell if the frame is cracked, messed up deraillure, etc.). This is the cheapest option, you could either get an amazing deal from a dude who bought a crazy expensive bike and road it once OR find a usable bike to see how you like it 2) Local bike shop: More expensive, but you're getting something new (or potentially lightly used) and the sales people are very knowledgeable 3) Walmart/Target/Dicks/Sports Authority/Internet: Cheap, but cheaply-made and possibly dangerous. Seriously, I've heard of people finding bikes put together in these stores so haphazardly, it's not worth the risk. You could be bad with money in any of the three. Buy a lovely bike for $400 from Craigslist that breaks immediately or kills you? Bad with money. Buy a $10k carbon fiber bike from your LBS when your original budget was $1k? Bad with money. Buying a bike from Dick's because it was cheap, that then fell apart while going down a hill and causing massive internal bleeding? Bad with money.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:56
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Which is funny because as I kid I rode the cheapest piece of poo poo and did such poo poo like jumping 15 feet off of ramps and landing on rocks, etc.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:59
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LorneReams posted:Which is funny because as I kid I rode the cheapest piece of poo poo and did such poo poo like jumping 15 feet off of ramps and landing on rocks, etc. Well, the cheapest POS kid's bike is made out of steel with few moving parts, so you're safe there. A cheap derailleur or cheap cable brakes are horrifying. Expect to spend $600 minimum, plus accessories so you don't get hit or die on impact
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Jul 17, 2014 21:44
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Are foldable/collapsible bikes all crap?
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Jul 17, 2014 21:56
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I don't know but they're all pretty dumb, IMO. There are 3-4 threads over in YLLS devoted to cycling and they can help you scope your local craigslist and find a decent bike.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:38
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mastershakeman posted:Is there any actual distinction between 'for-profit' colleges and run of the mill private (non-ivy) ones? Or is the distinction just that of employment/graduation metrics? Look at major industry groups for the major you want. Only go to schools that have their accreditation. The AACSB accreditation for example is very rigorous and even solid schools have lost it for a semester or two.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:43
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I'm amazed these institutions exist (Australian), my father used to work at a private college which was simply a springboard to get into "proper" universities but at least those credits transferred (and he used to fail a whole bunch of students who literally had no clue what was going on).
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Jul 17, 2014 23:48
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Scapegoat posted:I'm amazed these institutions exist (Australian), my father used to work at a private college which was simply a springboard to get into "proper" universities but at least those credits transferred (and he used to fail a whole bunch of students who literally had no clue what was going on). The difference is, here in Australia we have the Australian Qualifications Framework. It's basically quality assurance for tertiary education, so qualifications can be easily transferred between states, employers have a good idea of what each qualification means in terms of skillset, etc. Edit: I'm going to guess the US has nothing remotely approaching this, which is how crazy for-profit schools start. There are for-profit training providers in Australia, but the overwhelming majority of them conform to the AQF.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:04
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Re: bicycles: I bought an old Schwinn 10 speed road bike from a dude on CL my senior year of college for $100. I am still riding it at 29 with only minor repairs (did have to rebuild a wheel a few months ago because I took it on a pretty rough, 150km ride back in March, only cost like $25 tho). froglet posted:The difference is, here in Australia we have the Australian Qualifications Framework. It's basically quality assurance for tertiary education, so qualifications can be easily transferred between states, employers have a good idea of what each qualification means in terms of skillset, etc. America has no central accrediting body for universities 
Pompous Rhombus fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 00:55
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Pompous Rhombus posted:Re: bicycles: I bought an old Schwinn 10 speed road bike from a dude on CL my senior year of college for $100. I am still riding it at 29 with only minor repairs (did have to rebuild a wheel a few months ago because I took it on a pretty rough, 150km ride back in March, only cost like $25 tho). I also bought an old Schwinn road bike 9 years ago in college for $90 on CL. Only thing I've ever done is replace the tires and it's still going strong. The idea that you have to spend $500+ to get a good bicycle is bad with money and should not be parroted. Anyways, can we get back to people being bad with money? My pet peeve lately: people who make great money, have tons of useless consumer crap, are able to afford the purchase of a home, and yet still ask their friends and subordinates to help them move. Pay a goddamn mover, you are not in college anymore. I guess that is not so much being bad with money as it is being a cheap mofo though.
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Jul 18, 2014 15:24
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sativa dreams posted:I also bought an old Schwinn road bike 9 years ago in college for $90 on CL. Only thing I've ever done is replace the tires and it's still going strong. The idea that you have to spend $500+ to get a good bicycle is bad with money and should not be parroted. Seems like beer&pizza is the better financial choice than paying movers a thousand bucks.
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Jul 18, 2014 15:41
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Yeah that's basically the opposite of being bad with money.
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Jul 18, 2014 16:54
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sativa dreams posted:Anyways, can we get back to people being bad with money? My pet peeve lately: people who make great money, have tons of useless consumer crap, are able to afford the purchase of a home, and yet still ask their friends and subordinates to help them move. Pay a goddamn mover, you are not in college anymore. I guess that is not so much being bad with money as it is being a cheap mofo though. This is objectively wrong. Especially because moving companies are much less trustworthy than friends. They often don't give a gently caress if they break something and have all kinds of poo poo in the contract to absolve themselves of anything. Which might be fine if you weren't paying 500-2000 for their services.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:00
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I'm actually moving this weekend, granted only from apartment to apartment so I don't have 20 years of accumulated crap in a house, and while I could easily afford movers I'd rather just do it myself. It's a good opportunity to throw out/donate a bunch of old poo poo and reorganize. Plus it's some good exercise running boxes up a couple flights of stairs. My gf and I recruited a couple of friends just for the unloading portion, and they will be handsomely rewarded with as much good beer and food as they want. Helping people move isn't so bad if they've already done the worst part of organizing and packing everything. A couple hours of work tops if you're quick. I've helped friends move and I'd help them again, and I'd trust myself/friends to be careful 100x more than hired movers.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:10
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Nail Rat posted:This is objectively wrong. Especially because moving companies are much less trustworthy than friends. They often don't give a gently caress if they break something and have all kinds of poo poo in the contract to absolve themselves of anything. Which might be fine if you weren't paying 500-2000 for their services. Facts. My ex recently used one to move all her stuff from Maryland to Texas. Well, unfortunately, she didn't do much research. They told her that it would be there by the time she arrived, in 5 days. Now they're saying it won't be there for another 3 weeks, leaving her with no clothes, no furniture, and no kitchenware until they get there. I'm sure they're also going to tack on some fees when they do get there (storage, unloading, whatever BS) and strong arm her into signing it just to be done with it. The worst part? Federal law (the Carmack amendment) protects movers who do stuff like this from lawsuits; they're only liable for actual damage to the property. The most she could hope for is to sue for anything not included in the original agreed upon price, which would probably not be worthwhile in the first place. So yeah, there's a lot to be said for recruiting some buddies to throw stuff in a U-haul rather than hiring a moving company. That said, good movers are worth their weight in gold. I've used the same guys for my last 3 moves. It's always come under $500 (moving about an hour away each time) and it's nice to just know I'll be done with it without issue and in under 2 hours.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:16
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I'm not in college anymore so beer and food is not a handsome reward for using up an entire weekend day unfortunately. I guess I should be more specific in that my pet peeve is that these people say they can't afford movers, and then I watch as we fill up an entire 26' foot uhaul twice over with useless consumer crap as we move into their 3000' sq foot mcmansion.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:18
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Sounds like they need to learn to not buy so much useless poo poo but also you need to just say "no" and let them find some of their friends who don't mind manual labor. Moving poo poo is a good workout and it's kind of fun to have a few well-earned beers afterwards and talk about all their new plans for the new place. For the record I'm in my early 30s and make 100k+ and don't mind helping people move. Most of my colleagues don't either. So not everyone who's "not in college" is insulted by the prospect of being asked for help moving in exchange for beer and food. After all you might need to borrow their truck sometime, or get picked up from the airport, or whatever. Friends help friends out.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:28
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sativa dreams posted:I'm not in college anymore so beer and food is not a handsome reward for using up an entire weekend day unfortunately. Helping your friends out is its own reward, or should be, and they will return the favor sometime.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:34
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