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Bouchacha posted:Autoaim is a remnant of imprecise/impractical limitations to the peripherals at the time (Namely no mouse, or using a controller). It has no purpose nowadays. There's no reason why it can't just be a toggle in the options menu. Everybody wins! Although yeah, I agree that autoaim isn't as essential to doom as moving at 60mph and not reloading is. It was a necessity because most players didn't even have a mouse back then, and just aimed horizontally. It does feel good to play Doom without mouselook sometimes though... I'm cautiously optimistic for Doom 4. These are good things we're hearing, but I was kinda excited for the Rise of the Triad remake, being super old-school, and it didn't capture my interest at all. Really regret buying that one. On the other hand, Shadow Warrior wasn't half bad, old school run'n'gun.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:14
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Bouchacha posted:Autoaim is a remnant of imprecise/impractical limitations to the peripherals at the time (Namely no mouse, or using a controller). It has no purpose nowadays. Yeah, I agree. It's a relic that doesn't enhance the game at all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if people scream bloody murder that it "dumbs the game down".
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Jul 18, 2014 17:18
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Bouchacha posted:Autoaim is a remnant of imprecise/impractical limitations to the peripherals at the time (Namely no mouse, or using a controller). It has no purpose nowadays. I would argue that it was central to Doom though. Doom isn't about getting sick headshots, it is entirely focused around movement and monster control. New Doom doesn't necessarily need autoaim specifically, or no mouselook or something, but it should have extremely generous hitboxes, like Quake 1 style. gently caress missing someone because the crosshair is between their legs.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:21
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No reloading sounds cool on paper but it looks really weird and out of place when you have good graphics. For example, you don't reload in the new Rise of the Triad and it just felt... wrong. Like I could just hold down left click and become a bullet hose.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:29
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:No reloading sounds cool on paper but it looks really weird and out of place when you have good graphics. For example, you don't reload in the new Rise of the Triad and it just felt... wrong. Like I could just hold down left click and become a bullet hose. Just do it Metal Slug style. Pause in firing? Reload animation. Thirteen shots? Reload. One hundred and thirty two shots? RELOAD.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:36
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LvK posted:Just do it Metal Slug style. Pause in firing? Reload animation. Thirteen shots? Reload. One hundred and thirty two shots? RELOAD. 
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Jul 18, 2014 17:39
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Segmentation Fault posted:The myth that Doom is all about the hard metal needs to go. Doom's soundtrack is just as much about the atmosphere and the slow, ambient songs, too. The Imp's Song, Dark Halls, Suspense, Demons on the Prey, and the legendary Sign of Evil are five songs in the first episode's nine levels. Nah man you're objectively wrong. E1M1 captured the feel of DOOM and you need know nothing else about the series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSsfjHCFosw quote:I really loving wish we could see it I feel like these con only announcements are just clearly trying to cover up for something, and trying to build on nothing but ultranerd hype off the quakecon faithful who would probably think anything looked pretty cool since they've got so much red bull and mountain dew coursing through their veins. I guess we'll probably get some cams or leaks soon. Nah it's hype management. Do something cool for QuakeCon, then go dark until just before release. Remember how Skyrim showed us that badass trailer and then it came out the same year? They're doing that. oswald ownenstein fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 17:42
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abagofcheetos posted:I would argue that it was central to Doom though. Doom isn't about getting sick headshots, it is entirely focused around movement and monster control. New Doom doesn't necessarily need autoaim specifically, or no mouselook or something, but it should have extremely generous hitboxes, like Quake 1 style. gently caress missing someone because the crosshair is between their legs. Totally this. Doom with headshots plays totally differently. I'm sure some people are obscenely good at FPSs and can just always headshot monsters at exactly the same speed, but I doubt that applies to most people. A need for precise aiming slows you down and changes the game.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:43
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Zaphod42 posted:I'm cautiously optimistic for Doom 4. These are good things we're hearing, but I was kinda excited for the Rise of the Triad remake, being super old-school, and it didn't capture my interest at all. Really regret buying that one. On the other hand, Shadow Warrior wasn't half bad, old school run'n'gun. I'd argue that the reason the Shadow Warrior remake was far superior to the ROTT remake was because it didn't go all the way old school. Heresy in this thread, sure, but I wouldn't mind seeing Doom move forward like SW did.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:53
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Super 3D Noah's Ark is on Steam Greenlight. Apparently the developer of ECWolf gets a big cut of the profits, so if this hits Steam your gag gift money will go to a cool project.
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Jul 18, 2014 17:58
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Jordan7hm posted:Totally this. Doom is so weird and unique because when you break it down, you are basically firing a pillar of damage at anything in front of you. It doesn't matter where they are, if they are in that rectangle of fire that goes from the floor to the ceiling, they are getting hit. Does the Doom Beta even have an estimated date yet?
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Jul 18, 2014 18:39
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All this talk about what Doom is, and nobody mentions awesome level design. Hope the dev team remembers that...
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Jul 18, 2014 19:41
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Yes, the level design was the absolute strongest part of the original Doom, and while it tripped up in Doom II a lot of people have taken it to make the game bigger and better in every way. Generally while gameplay mods are dime a dozen, a good map pack is eternal. Trying to strike that perfect balance between straightforward flow and non-linear wandering is incredibly difficult to do, and the mappacks that pull it off (  Scythe/Scythe II ) definitely need to be points of reference.You can't just put in a few corridors, put down a shotgun, and put a lot of enemies on the other end. While that's fun, it's not Doom-fun. TerminusEst13 fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 19:44
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abagofcheetos posted:I would argue that it was central to Doom though. Doom isn't about getting sick headshots, it is entirely focused around movement and monster control. New Doom doesn't necessarily need autoaim specifically, or no mouselook or something, but it should have extremely generous hitboxes, like Quake 1 style. gently caress missing someone because the crosshair is between their legs. Doom really is pretty much a 2D game. With a little modification to display the enemies, you could play from the map view, and it would turn into robotron. (Now I kinda want that...) It is kinda 2.5D with the floor levels, but even then its still pretty drat 2D.
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Jul 18, 2014 20:19
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oswald ownenstein posted:Nah man you're objectively wrong. I'll do you one better and post the Sonic Clang version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOZp0RWjdBI I also hope the devs take a page from the Doom 64 level design because that was a really awesome game. Atmosphere, monsters, everything.
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Jul 18, 2014 20:22
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Tobaccrow posted:All this talk about what Doom is, and nobody mentions awesome level design. Hope the dev team remembers that... That' what makes it a masterpiece, but even crappy doom levels are still fun because the core game is fun. The level design probably won't be nearly as good as the best doom wads, but hopefully it can at least be as good as E1, or the Nerve episode.
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Jul 18, 2014 20:25
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Tobaccrow posted:All this talk about what Doom is, and nobody mentions awesome level design. Hope the dev team remembers that... Doom 3's level design wasn't the worst in the world, but it didn't feel remotely like Doom, because of the core features we're talking about right now. Hmm, Doom 4, coming after Doom 3. I wonder why everybody's worried about the core mechanics 
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Jul 18, 2014 20:37
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SavageMessiah posted:I've found what I think will be the mod I use for general doom playing: Smooth Doom. This isn't getting enough love - these kinds of mods are exactly what I'm looking for nowadays and the sprites look so drat good in this. Jiro posted:I'll do you one better and post the Sonic Clang version. The Sonic Clang soundtrack is amazing, their version of E1M5 is the loving best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6xnUWmmgPM
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Jul 18, 2014 20:51
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Game Informer posted their own detailed write-up of the Doom 4 demo: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2014/07/17/a-lenghty-look-at-id-software_2700_s-new-doom.aspx
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Jul 18, 2014 20:53
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Doom 3 is almost exactly what Tom Hall's original design document for doom described. The 'core features' of doom are not coming back. There would have to be huge steps backwards in graphics to handle the speed of doom, and the level design would look weird as hell today and not work in true 3d. Play them on a source port that allows jumping and see what I mean.
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Jul 18, 2014 20:53
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I hope the new Doom has some degree of mod support like 3 or a level designer, but I won't hold my breath.
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Jul 18, 2014 20:55
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Doom 3 is almost exactly what Tom Hall's original design document for doom described. Not by coincidence Tom Hall maps are garbage.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:00
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nftyw posted:Doom 4, pre-order and get the UAC Marine Base Viscera Cleanup Detail free! I actually would not have a problem with this, I had fun playing the Shadow Warrior one. Also I play Doom with mouse-look and no autoaim, so I really don't see how that's a vitally important part of Doom.  Not that I haven't, I just prefer it like that.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:03
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Babylon Astronaut posted:There would have to be huge steps backwards in graphics to handle the speed of doom  As we all know racing games look like garbage. Its a little bit of a challenge but its not nearly the hurdle you seem to think it is. Game developers solve much bigger problems every day. Moving fast or having lots of enemies isn't really that hard. And Rage didn't even look all that good with all its buffering problems, so who cares? Just make it fun and as long as it looks pretty good everybody will be happy. If its proper doom it should probably be dark anyways. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 21:12
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Auto-aim is useful for setting up a common 'baseline' for speed runs since that's what the original used. With auto-aim on, using the mouse (or allowing vertical aiming) actually hinders you because it needlessly distracts you so it makes sense to jettison it as well. Some classic maps (particularly any level with the Icon of Sin) are trivialized when you can mouse aim the rocket launcher. The downside is that you have to put up with unpredictable projectile trajectories. Since I'm not in the competition scene, I couldn't care less.Sir Lemming posted:Game Informer posted their own detailed write-up of the Doom 4 demo: "Doom is not about taking cover," Stratton said. "It's not about finding a place to hide to let your health regenerate. It's about fast, fluid combat, dodging projectiles, finding that next target and charging forward with nothing in your way of slaughtering that next demon." Awesome. Keep the monster numbers high and we'll be good.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:19
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Zaphod42 posted:As we all know racing games look like garbage. That's genius! They just need to build Doom 4 in Gran Turismo. It's just so simple.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:29
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Former Human posted:The Mortal Kombat style melee and gore sound stupid, but the rest of those features sound really promising. I've always found gore superfluous in games, to the point that if I'm immersed in the gameplay enough I don't even notice it. Doom is a good example of this, and Fallout 3 is pretty gory. But both are fun enough that you could take it away and not even notice. I sort of worry about the 'gore lol' aspect of Doom 4, because it's not like all there was to the original Dooms was gore. In the plus side, I find the emphasis on melee pretty interesting. Melee is universally poo poo in FPSs, so it'd be cool if someone could do something new and exciting with it.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:33
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It's more about having really big hitboxes and eliminating any instances of monsters that can be picked off by sitting and carefully aiming. It's totally about that thing Stratton said. That does give me some hope.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:34
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Babylon Astronaut posted:That's genius! They just need to build Doom 4 in Gran Turismo. It's just so simple. I don't know what point you think you're making here. You just keep making yourself look worse. Are you trying to say Gran Turismo can handle speed while Id Tech cannot?  There's nothing inherently difficult about speed, except handling streaming of assets as you move across a level (a non-issue if you can simply cache the whole level) and handling the increased enemy count (a minor problem if enemies use instances of the same few assets, like zombies in left4dead) I mean gently caress dude Rage had racing segments in it. What the gently caress are you going on about? EvilGenius posted:I sort of worry about the 'gore lol' aspect of Doom 4, because it's not like all there was to the original Dooms was gore. In the plus side, I find the emphasis on melee pretty interesting. Melee is universally poo poo in FPSs, so it'd be cool if someone could do something new and exciting with it. Yeah I'm a little worried somebody saw Brutal Doom and was like "this is what people want? Okay lets do that too" Mortal Kombat Fatalities aren't really Doom, and they're probably just going to break up the rhythm. We don't need more quick time events. That said, could be good. It sucks we haven't seen the trailer yet.  Stupid Bethesda making us actually read game journalism!
Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 21:36
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EvilGenius posted:I've always found gore superfluous in games, to the point that if I'm immersed in the gameplay enough I don't even notice it. Doom is a good example of this, and Fallout 3 is pretty gory. But both are fun enough that you could take it away and not even notice.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:41
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So it's likely we won't see any more Doom 4 until 2015, and the build shown was just to address negativity.
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Jul 18, 2014 21:46
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Carmack specifically stated that Doom 4 would have to run at 30fps to have more enemies on the screen than rage. Conversely, rage's driving sections would not feel responsive at the lower frame rate. It really isn't as controversial as you are making it out to claim that racing games use many shortcuts that would not fit a fps game, and a AAA fps released after 2014 will not have movement over 70 scale mph. I guess they could make it work with around 6 enemies on screen, but that would be worse.
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Jul 18, 2014 22:05
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Carmack specifically stated that Doom 4 would have to run at 30fps to have more enemies on the screen than rage. Conversely, rage's driving sections would not feel responsive at the lower frame rate. It really isn't as controversial as you are making it out to claim that racing games use many shortcuts that would not fit a fps game, and a AAA fps released after 2014 will not have movement over 70 scale mph. I guess they could make it work with around 6 enemies on screen, but that would be worse. The things you're saying aren't the full picture. You're holding things like polycounts, texture sizes, and animation detail as constant; they're not. They're extremely variable. And even then that's ignoring instancing and billboarding and world detail and MIP-mapping levels of detail and ... gently caress a TON of poo poo. If you could only have 6 enemies on screen as is, you could cut their poly count 1/10th and now you can have 60, do it again and now you can have 600. But that's just getting started. Again, see Left4Dead, which has hundreds of zombies on screen and runs just loving fine at 60fps dude.
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Jul 18, 2014 22:09
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If Doom 4 looks like Left4Dead, then it is indeed a step backwards in graphics. Left4Dead will be nearly a decade old by the time Doom 4 is released. Your "whole picture" is decrease the graphical fidelity to improve performance which is exactly what I said.
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Jul 18, 2014 22:17
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Maybe they can just hide all the cool graphics in darkness for 8 years.
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Jul 18, 2014 22:31
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The only problem with reduced fidelity for a faster-paced game is screenshots. In fact, I'd argue that to some extent you need to reduce fidelity as game speed increases. Bold colors and simpler shapes are more instantly readable, and that's important.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:15
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Proper art direction will trump graphical fidelity any day of the week. Something can be extremely pleasing to look at graphically without appearing hyper-realistic.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:16
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Babylon Astronaut posted:That's genius! They just need to build Doom 4 in Gran Turismo. It's just so simple. Early development of what would become the Doom engine was a racing game. Masters of Doom posted:Because Spear of Destiny was built using the original Wolfenstein engine, Carmack could work on new technology while the rest of the guys completed the game. At first, he fiddled with countless little experiments, using art resources from the existing games. He played around with making a racing game like F-Zero, the hovercralt title he played now and then with Romero. Carmack covered the floor at his computer screen with an angular blue matrix of lines. Then he started laying down images that together would make up roads. The only digital images around were big banners of Hitler from Wolfenstein, so he put those down back to back, making a highway of Hitlers surrounded by a sprawling web. Carmack could lose himself in the abstract mathematical imagery of this world, working on the acceleration of movement, the sense of speed, velocity, decline.
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Jul 18, 2014 23:18
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I want to race around in Cyber Hitler World.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:07
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Did I mention that Doomero is sick? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSheHyPQkrM
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Jul 19, 2014 00:11
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