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MrYenko posted:Depending on how intact the aircraft was as it went down, (and it looks like it was mostly in one piece at impact, or at least didn't really start to come apart until low altitude, from the pictures of the crash site I've seen,) they very well might have still had emergency bus power for a significant time after intercept. It wouldn't be terribly useful, since we already know what killed the airplane, but I doubt that the warhead on an SA-11 could do catastrophic structural damage (slowly descending cloud of aluminum fragments) to an aircraft the size of a 777. I'm thinking something more like a major structural failure of a wing, or empennage, leading to complete loss of control, and the aircraft either breaking up at low altitude, or impacting in one piece. weren't they reporting body parts scattered upto 15km from the impact site? If so, that would suggest break-up at altitude. Not much of a breakup looking at the aircraft debris scatter, but I would be surprised if the fuselage hit intact. I guess we wait for the report. edit: yeah, there are body parts spread over several kilometers. 
Captain Postal fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 00:08
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MrYenko posted:Depending on how intact the aircraft was as it went down, (and it looks like it was mostly in one piece at impact, or at least didn't really start to come apart until low altitude, from the pictures of the crash site I've seen,) they very well might have still had emergency bus power for a significant time after intercept. It wouldn't be terribly useful, since we already know what killed the airplane, but I doubt that the warhead on an SA-11 could do catastrophic structural damage (slowly descending cloud of aluminum fragments) to an aircraft the size of a 777. I'm thinking something more like a major structural failure of a wing, or empennage, leading to complete loss of control, and the aircraft either breaking up at low altitude, or impacting in one piece. Knowing how an airplane crashed, failure modes, etc., is pretty interesting and what not. But it's hard to discuss stuff like that with people outside of those circles without appearing cold and callous. In an environment sterile of the human element, crashes are fun to analyze. Captain Postal posted:weren't they reporting body parts scattered upto 15km from the impact site? If so, that would suggest catastrophic break-up at altitude. Depends how the debris field is; a small field 15km from the main impact would show there was major damage to the fuselage itself, enough that the passenger compartment was compromised. If the entirety of the debris field is scattered across that area, then yes, the airplane broke up mid-air at high altitude. e: again, depends on debris, it could be that people were falling out of the aircraft as it was descending. Not really something I want to go into detail about. CovfefeCatCafe fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 00:12
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I like learning about that kind of stuff too, but for the immediate future it's still kind of an emotional event.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:16
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YF19pilot posted:Depends how the debris field is; a small field 15km from the main impact would show there was major damage to the fuselage itself, enough that the passenger compartment was compromised. If the entirety of the debris field is scattered across that area, then yes, the airplane broke up mid-air at high altitude. The footage of the crash site doesn't look that large, but the body recovery searchers are saying things like 'we found body parts in this sunflower field. Some guys found body parts in that field a few km away. The miners a few km down the road have found more'. Hard to know what that all means without a proper investigation.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:16
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CharlesM posted:I like learning about that kind of stuff too, but for the immediate future it's still kind of an emotional event. Yeah, I try to be careful about stuff like this, especially when trying to explain the what, why, how of things. Kinda like, I could prattle on about the OKC bombing if I wanted to, but having been to the memorial, it's hard for me to not get choked up when I think of the chairs, especially the small chairs. Doesn't help that I'm an Uncle to a 2 year old at the moment.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:22
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In light of MH-17 shootdown Mark Kirk (R) Ill. Wants missile shields for US Airliners. Indicating a lack of understanding of the EM spectrum, as he advocates DIRCM systems....that aren't even built in his district. http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/212690-gop-senator-wants-missile-shields-for-airplanes joke from comments: Kirk would also like photon torpedos and a cloaking field.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:37
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Slo-Tek posted:In light of MH-17 shootdown Mark Kirk (R) Ill. Wants missile shields for US Airliners. Indicating a lack of understanding of the EM spectrum, as he advocates DIRCM systems....that aren't even built in his district. Wrong administration to try and get starfleet funded...or anything space related.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:40
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Slo-Tek posted:In light of MH-17 shootdown Mark Kirk (R) Ill. Wants missile shields for US Airliners. Indicating a lack of understanding of the EM spectrum, as he advocates DIRCM systems....that aren't even built in his district. These systems have been shunned by European airports and the FAA before, supposedly for fear of inadvertently fired flares being a fire hazard.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:19
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Snowdens Secret posted:These systems have been shunned by European airports and the FAA before, supposedly for fear of inadvertently fired flares being a fire hazard. He isn't talking about chaff or flares, but grover-beam laser dazzlers. So, just a risk for blinding ground crews. And not going to do a whole lot against a radar-guided medium range missile.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:40
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Are there any defenses against radar guided missiles that could conceivably be installed on airliners? Or are we going to have to wait until those LAIRCM things get upgraded with hard-kill lasers or something?
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Jul 19, 2014 01:45
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Giant ECM pods and dumping chaff at regular intervals!
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Jul 19, 2014 01:52
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Davin Valkri posted:Are there any defenses against radar guided missiles that could conceivably be installed on airliners? Or are we going to have to wait until those LAIRCM things get upgraded with hard-kill lasers or something? Imagine I just linked a scene from the hit movie Air Force One  my cursory search of youtube wasn't finding it
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Jul 19, 2014 01:58
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Davin Valkri posted:Are there any defenses against radar guided missiles that could conceivably be installed on airliners? Or are we going to have to wait until those LAIRCM things get upgraded with hard-kill lasers or something? So your defenses against radar missiles are to either make it lose the radar lock/never lock in the first place, blow up the missile or out maneuver it. Since we're talking airliners maneuvering is out. Blow up the missile is crazy grover laser land. To cause a radar to lose lock you can put out chaff or ECM which would cause a bunch of noise. Or you could make it harder for the radar to lock onto you in the first place with stealth. Unfortunately airliners will have transponders running so ATC can direct them which kinda makes stealth or ECM or whatever useless as the missile could just track the transponder until its close. Clearly then the only solution is to blow up the missile before it launches. To this end all international airliners will need to be fitted with a radar warning receiver, HARM Targeting System and a pair of AGM-88s.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:59
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hobbesmaster posted:So your defenses against radar missiles are to either make it lose the radar lock/never lock in the first place, blow up the missile or out maneuver it. Since we're talking airliners maneuvering is out. Blow up the missile is crazy grover laser land. To cause a radar to lose lock you can put out chaff or ECM which would cause a bunch of noise. Or you could make it harder for the radar to lock onto you in the first place with stealth. Unfortunately airliners will have transponders running so ATC can direct them which kinda makes stealth or ECM or whatever useless as the missile could just track the transponder until its close. After reading viper pilot I get the impression the AGM-88 kinda sucks. So what Airliners need is an escort of F-16CJ's
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Jul 19, 2014 02:02
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priznat posted:Giant ECM pods and dumping chaff at regular intervals! You can tell the major air corridors by the piles of aluminum foil on the ground!
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Jul 19, 2014 02:03
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StandardVC10 posted:You can tell the major air corridors by the piles of aluminum foil on the ground! Dump my Raytheon stock, buy ALCOA stat.
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Jul 19, 2014 02:05
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Flikken posted:After reading viper pilot I get the impression the AGM-88 kinda sucks. So what Airliners need is an escort of F-16CJ's *Buys Raytheon stock* Eh, better up it to 4 per plane then.
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Jul 19, 2014 02:08
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Flikken posted:After reading viper pilot I get the impression the AGM-88 kinda sucks. So what Airliners need is an escort of F-16CJ's Bring back the wild weasels!!!
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Jul 19, 2014 03:17
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jaegerx posted:Bring back the wild weasels!!! Well we do still have a fair amount of F-4s.....
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Jul 19, 2014 05:16
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Yet another job 
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Jul 19, 2014 05:24
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YF19pilot posted:Knowing how an airplane crashed, failure modes, etc., is pretty interesting and what not. But it's hard to discuss stuff like that with people outside of those circles without appearing cold and callous. In an environment sterile of the human element, crashes are fun to analyze. I do have to say that flight safety/mishap investigation is a serious interest of mine. I actively read about it and did it in a professional capacity. It's utterly fascinating to me. Morbid as all get out, though.
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Jul 19, 2014 05:28
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Y'all are overthinking this. All we need are 4-engine airliners retrofitted with a pair of GENxs on the inner pylons and a pair of Phalanx CIWS guns in pods on the outer pylons.
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Jul 19, 2014 05:34
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So if everyone thought the 787-9 prep video was awesome, check out the actual performance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzr313wSY_Y Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 06:05
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AGM-88 isn't a bad thing, but it has a tough job. But if these SAM operators are the gamernerds/retirees/whatever being claimed, they're not gonna radiate poo poo with that threat in the area.CommieGIR posted:Well we do still have a fair amount of F-4s..... Nope. Most of them have been shot down or fallen apart as drones. QF-16s are the new hotness.
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Jul 19, 2014 06:11
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holocaust bloopers posted:I do have to say that flight safety/mishap investigation is a serious interest of mine. I actively read about it and did it in a professional capacity. It's utterly fascinating to me. Morbid as all get out, though. You should make a thread in a/t like the traffic engineer. 
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Jul 19, 2014 06:20
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Solkanar512 posted:So if everyone thought the 787-9 prep video was awesome, check out the actual performance. That touch and go...
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Jul 19, 2014 06:23
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Xandu posted:That touch and go... That maneuver was banned the next day apparently.
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Jul 19, 2014 06:47
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I realize the power-to-weight ratio is big without any passengers, but it's uncanny to see such a huge plane doing maneuvers like that.
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Jul 19, 2014 06:52
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Solkanar512 posted:That maneuver was banned the next day apparently. Oh? How come?
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Jul 19, 2014 07:01
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They didn't like when the pilot dipped the wing, they said it came too close to the ground.
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Jul 19, 2014 07:07
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Craptacular posted:They didn't like when the pilot dipped the wing, they said it came too close to the ground. Yeah to my untrained non-pilot eye I went "hnnngh" when that wing dipped. Beautiful aircraft though, love the wings on those.
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Jul 19, 2014 07:58
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Godholio posted:
There's plenty left at the boneyard
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Jul 19, 2014 14:58
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CommieGIR posted:There's plenty left at the boneyard Looks like 178...admittedly that's a lot more than I expected (I figured >25) but I'm sure most of them have been gutted to keep the drones flying for the past 20 years. I can't imagine many spares are available from other sources. It'd be pretty badass to saturate an enemy IADS with a fleet of Q-jets, while F-22s and B-2s sneak through the mess and F-35s are grounded at Edwards and Eglin.
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Jul 19, 2014 18:20
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CommieGIR posted:There's plenty left at the boneyard Possibly as spare parts for the last remaining operators? (Turkey, Egypt, Greece, and South Korea, I think? And Iran, but I don't think the US will be selling spares to Iran any time soon.)
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Jul 19, 2014 18:26
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:You should make a thread in a/t like the traffic engineer. I wish I had the knowledge to do an a/t. I can only really speak to my experience as a USAF flight engineer.
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Jul 19, 2014 19:54
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Craptacular posted:They didn't like when the pilot dipped the wing, they said it came too close to the ground. Guess I was right! :P CharlesM posted:Cool. I think I've seen that plane. That takeoff where there roll to the right does seem a little risky. Looks like the wing could get close to the ground if they go too early. Or it might be one of those things that being in a 2d video look kinda deceptive.
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Jul 19, 2014 20:30
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Craptacular posted:They didn't like when the pilot dipped the wing, they said it came too close to the ground. gently caress that. They are expert pilots, flying away from the crowd. Do they want all future air shows to be a 5 mile final, followed by a touch and go to pattern height?
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Jul 19, 2014 22:41
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Slo-Tek posted:In light of MH-17 shootdown Mark Kirk (R) Ill. Wants missile shields for US Airliners. Indicating a lack of understanding of the EM spectrum, as he advocates DIRCM systems....that aren't even built in his district. I don't get this. I don't understand how a human being can be this loving stupid. If all you needed to defeat a missile was one simple solution, why would there be any missiles anymore? You can't seriously, honestly believe that there is a simple solution to a problem, yet that problem still exists. If any and all SAM sites could be defeated with a DIRCM system, then every military plane in the world would have them, and nobody would use SAM anymore. I swear, people just don't think.
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Jul 19, 2014 23:06
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Slo-Tek posted:In light of MH-17 shootdown Mark Kirk (R) Ill. Wants missile shields for US Airliners. Indicating a lack of understanding of the EM spectrum, as he advocates DIRCM systems.... If you remove "that aren't even built in his district" this makes perfect sense.
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Jul 19, 2014 23:18
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Captain Bravo posted:I don't get this. I don't understand how a human being can be this loving stupid. If all you needed to defeat a missile was one simple solution, why would there be any missiles anymore? You can't seriously, honestly believe that there is a simple solution to a problem, yet that problem still exists. If any and all SAM sites could be defeated with a DIRCM system, then every military plane in the world would have them, and nobody would use SAM anymore. I swear, people just don't think. It makes a lot more sense if you just pretend the congressional oath of office was just, "I swear to lie, cheat, steal, and fearmonger my way into being reelected, so help me God*." *last phrase only required for Republicans
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Jul 19, 2014 23:29
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