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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:More sanctions, or if they really want to hit Russia below the bet, no FIFA 2018. Would Russia really care about FIFA?
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Jul 21, 2014 16:45
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Beamed posted:Would Ru$$ia really care about FIFA? Fixed that for you.
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Jul 21, 2014 16:50
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archaeo posted:Wait, so you're on the side that's mad at them for not moving the bodies quickly enough? Not the side that is mad because they moved the bodies (stole for hostage purposes was the general thread claim). The claim was not that they had been deliberately taken with pre-made plans to use them as hostages, or 'stole for hostage purposes', it was more like this The New York Times posted:“We are here to get the bodies back to their countries and to their families. We will try our utmost to do this as quickly as possible,” Michel Oz, the group’s Dutch coordinator, said. But he added that it was still unclear whether the separatist rebels who control the crash site and the nearby railway station at Torez would allow a train loaded with corpses to leave for Kharkiv. “We have no information,” he said. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/putin-calls-for-talks-in-ukraine-and-a-robust-crash-investigation.html
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Jul 21, 2014 16:50
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archaeo posted:Wait, so you're on the side that's mad at them for not moving the bodies quickly enough? Not the side that is mad because they moved the bodies (stole for hostage purposes was the general thread claim). I'm on the side that thinks it's not ridiculous to describe as "dastardly" the people that made the corpses of 80 children rain down from the sky and then left them to rot for days and looted them while threatening to shoot at international observers who approached their crime scene. e: And it's hilarious how the conversation surrounding "hostages" was called a witch hunt of pro-Russian posters. It was completely driven by the asinine need to insist the word hostages could not possibly apply. Is it the exact right word choice? Who the gently caress cares? Not me. FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 16:53
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Pimpmust posted:Related to this, but weren't there a tweet going around (either from the Ukrainian government or the seperatists) that the An-26 was at 10 000 meters? I know the altitude "changed" as the situation became clearer. I'm pretty sure that it was all but certain that there was at least 1 BUK around ~2 days before the shootdown of the airliner, which is why it was a bit surprising (for me) that there were still civilian airliners flying in the area (maybe they didn't get the memo) There were four other commercial airliners flying in the same area over Ukraine at the time MH 17 was shot down; also Malyasia airlines was flying on a high-traveled commercial route used by several other airlines in the days preceding. Basically, there is no mystery because at the height, location and route MH 17 had been traveling, there were other airplanes in the same vicinity since all of them had the reasonable expectation they wouldn't have been shot down. Haven't seen any rumors that the An-26 was at 10,000 meters but I'm not sure of the difference since it would still require a Buk to take it down? More confirmation as to the type of missile systems in the area and there's another graphic showing more missile ranges. Related is this article trying to plot the location of the Buk system based on relative known speeds.  Edit: spelling error Furious Lobster fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 16:55
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The An-26 is a turboprop that has a ceiling of 7500m so something up at 10km couldn't have been an An-26.
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Jul 21, 2014 16:58
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rockopete posted:The claim was not that they had been deliberately taken with pre-made plans to use them as hostages, or 'stole for hostage purposes', it was more like this Also I think it's fair to describe barring observers from the crash site and letting the corpses rot as they are looted for valuables and/or evidence as holding them hostage, even if there wasn't necessarily an explicit ransom demand for the corpses. For all we know, the delay allowed the rebels to do whatever it was they wanted to accomplish with the crash site. Ultimately, this is a pointless semantical debate that accomplishes little besides distracting from the heinous nature of the crime while prompting some bizarre and terrible hyperbolic posting.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:00
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Russia's stock market after the crash.  http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3485
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Jul 21, 2014 17:02
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Beamed posted:Would Russia really care about FIFA? Yes. They are big on appearances/prestige. Plus, when else are they going to invade Belarus?
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Jul 21, 2014 17:03
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A bit zoomed out for more context. I wouldn't know if this is a good measure of economic 'damage', but it's in interesting barometer regardless. source (you can mess with the dates) http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/INDEXCF:IND/chart Interestingly the last time it was that low prior to March was in September 2013, when it started rising again. Was that when Yanukovych hinted that he would go with the Customs Union agreement? e: Hmmm, no. Armenia declared it would join around then, though. Who knows. rockopete fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 17:07
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I would zoom even further out to 5 years. Every time people talk about the russian stock market in relation to Ukraine they always use misleading graphs.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:12
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OddObserver posted:Yes. They are big on appearances/prestige. Plus, when else are they going to invade Belarus? Invade? Russia already gets free access to Belarus any time they want. The only thing left for them to do is get rid of Lukashenko, but that's not necessary yet.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:14
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Invade? Russia already gets free access to Belarus any time they want. The only thing left for them to do is get rid of Lukashenko, but that's not necessary yet. Why would they want to get rid of Lukashenko?
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Jul 21, 2014 17:17
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Niedar posted:I would zoom even further out to 5 years. What's the deal with May?
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Jul 21, 2014 17:19
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Niedar posted:I would zoom even further out to 5 years. Is that the performance index?
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Jul 21, 2014 17:20
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Peak Summer, gas sales down?
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Jul 21, 2014 17:20
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I wasn't really serious --- but I really am afraid that there is someone on the list after Ukraine...
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Jul 21, 2014 17:21
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katlington posted:What's the deal with May? Round of sanctions for Crimea hit.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:22
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Phlegmish posted:Why would they want to get rid of Lukashenko? Exactly, there's no reason to get rid of him. Lukashenko is very good at walking a tightrope and looking out for number 1 when it comes to international issues.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:22
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UP is reporting that all the bodies have been located --- though some of them are, well, "in fragments"...
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Jul 21, 2014 17:28
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archaeo posted:Wait, so you're on the side that's mad at them for not moving the bodies quickly enough? Not the side that is mad because they moved the bodies (stole for hostage purposes was the general thread claim). We're mad because they killed 300 people. Quit trying to shift the issue.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:29
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OddObserver posted:I wasn't really serious --- but I really am afraid that there is someone on the list after Ukraine... Belarus, the Baltic states, Poland -and then the march to the Atlantic begins.  In other news, tomorrow is the foreign minister conference of the EU about what to do with Russia. There are signs the EU may go to step 3 of its 3-step-sanction plan. Which would include a potential ban on Russian oil and gas.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:38
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OddObserver posted:I wasn't really serious --- but I really am afraid that there is someone on the list after Ukraine... Lukashenko will seriously have to gently caress up big before Russia kicks him to the curb. He's a yes man, because he needs money and gas from Russia to keep what little economy Belarus has afloat. I honestly thought there would be more blowback from Russia last summer when he had the CEO of Russia's potash company arrested in Minsk, and I mean literally dragged off the airplane before it could taxi to the runway. Two years ago when Russia figured out that the Belarusian oil company was sending train loads of oil marked as solvents so they wouldn't have to pay the duty on exporting the oil ... but nope, Putin still supports Lukashenko, so I don't know what he could do at this point to make things so bad the Kremlin decides he has to go. The other problem is Lukashenko got into office in 1994 and then promptly destroyed every opposition party in the country so he can in essence run unopposed every five years and win. If Russia decides it's time to support a new candidate for president, who would there be? That's why Lukashenko is still president. If there is anyone else on Putin's list, I think it will be Lithuania, because of Kaliningrad.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:42
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Please stop responding to retarded fuckwit archaeo who is incapable of constructing a single post without including at least one straw man or bad faith argument or being intentionally obtuse, tia.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:43
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archaeo posted:Those dastardly rebels! Letting the Dutch take away the bodies! All the rebels should be hunted down and killed by all good patriotic true Ukrainians! The rebels really are pieces of poo poo though, they shot down a plane, bragged about it, won't take responsibility for it (also can you confirm that you believe the rebels shot down the plane or are you drinking the Russian Koolaid)? They then impeded the investigation by trying to cover their tracks and also looting the scene making both identification of the bodies that much harder and also making it harder to find out what missile brought down the plane. A noose is too good for those that shot down that plane.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:44
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Huh, Lukashenko is 2 years younger than Putin. The mustache makes him look older. So it's a toss-up if Russia can seize on his inevitable death and succession crisis.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:48
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alex314 posted:Round of sanctions for Crimea hit. I think he's asking about the drop that happens in May every year.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:48
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Would Lithuania refuse an offer for interterritorial highway and railroad to Kaliningrad. poo poo, make a good offer and Poland could consider it.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:49
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US government confirms recordings of separatists talking about shooting down airliner are authentic. http://news.yahoo.com/us-says-recordings-ukraine-rebels-admitting-mh17-downing-161443402.html
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Jul 21, 2014 17:53
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rockopete posted:The claim was not that they had been deliberately taken with pre-made plans to use them as hostages, or 'stole for hostage purposes', it was more like this What the gently caress is wrong with the writer of that article: quote:In Torez, about 40 miles east, where the bodies of Flight 17 victims were being held, the Dutch forensics specialists arrived at about 11:30 a.m. and bowed their heads for a few seconds of silence. The first wagon was opened by a woman, apparently a railroad worker, in a tight satiny black skirt, tight white shirt and high wedge heels with purple straps. "let us digress from the three traincars full of dead bodies to discuss the tight-fitting clothing of a railroad worker"
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Jul 21, 2014 17:53
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Romanian president Traian Basescu just did a press conference, delivering Romania's official position on what happens in Ukraine; the speech was delivered in his usual fiery way, with fists banging on table, etc (he used to be a ship captain) Main points were: - the downing of the airplane was a terrorist act, and the separatists in eastern Ukraine are terrorists (this was repeated several times) - Russia is directly responsible, they are partners in terrorism, they are a terrorism supporting state, etc - Russia has supplied the separatists with heavy weapons, specialists, and chechens, kazaks, transnistrans, and other such creatures - Putin cannot run from responsibility - Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Empire (this is actually a common thing in Romania, saying "Imperiul Sovietic" instead of "Uniunea Sovietica") - today it's Ukraine, tomorrow could be Poland, the Baltics, or even Romania - the lives of EU citizens like those that died in the terrorist attack are not worth more than the lives of poor ukrainians that get killed by russian terrorists every day - there will be new sanctions towards Russia, this time aimed at commercial entities (russian companies) instead of people - tough sanctions should have happened long time ago, and the EU's response until now has been unacceptable (he went on a big rant about this) - the main values of the European Union are the european citizens and their safety, not commercial relations - toughest sanctions possible should be instated right away, no matter the economic hardship for EU (this is easy for him to say, as the effects on Romania's economy would be minimal; Russia would actually be way more affected, as several car assembly plants there would stop functioning without parts imported from Romania) - some other stuff Overall I thought it was a good speech, prebably some of the toughest words to come from the EU countries
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Jul 21, 2014 18:00
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evilweasel posted:What the gently caress is wrong with the writer of that article: It doesn't fit, but having travelled to Ukraine, I see how this might surprise people. Women working in official capacities, ei, rail workers, border guards, etc., will go to great lengths to wear an absolutely impecable uniform and heavy, thick mascara. They really stand out from the drab surroundings, and I guess that's what he was going for.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:00
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Obama has been killing it laying down the law for Russia too.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:05
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It's a little heart-lifting to see so many countries chiming in to say "Hey, gently caress that guy" to Putin.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:22
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FAUXTON posted:It's a little heart-lifting to see so many countries chiming in to say "Hey, gently caress that guy" to Putin. I really want the EU to show they have a spine. An EU World Cup boycott of Russia would hurt Putin the most and not hurt the EU at all.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:27
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3peat posted:- Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Empire (this is actually a common thing in Romania, saying "Imperiul Sovietic" instead of "Uniunea Sovietica") I get why he's saying this, since it's still something that happened in living memory and it was a particularly terrible period in Romanian history. But that said, I think it's generally a mistake for people to characterize Putin's actions like this - not because he's not an imperialist, but because it's not the Soviet Empire he's trying to rebuild. That just makes him seem like a lost-causer who is trying to cling to a decidedly-dead Soviet legacy. What he's trying to reinvigorate is the Russian Empire, a much older institution, of which the Soviet era was only a part. The reason why I think this distinction matters so much is because it demonstrates that Russia's geopolitical interests remained the same before the Revolution, throughout the Soviet period, and into the present day. This is a long-lived problem. Russia has for many centuries viewed itself as a part of Europe, but it also sees its role in the world as a balance to the West. It may not be at the height of its power at the moment, but it's still an extremely powerful country where it counts, and it's likely to be one for the foreseeable future. That's why the West's primary objective needs to be answering the question, "How do we get Russia to not reflexively lash out like this as it tries to balance our geopolitical influence?" e: I agree with a lot of the rest of it, though. I don't think the "tomorrow it could be Romania, etc" part is all that likely, but I get why he's saying it. Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 18:33
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Scapegoat posted:The rebels really are pieces of poo poo though, they shot down a plane, bragged about it, won't take responsibility for it They bragged when they thought it was a military plane. It took the Ukrainians 8 days to acknowledge, after initially denying, that they shot down a Russian plane in 2001.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:34
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FAUXTON posted:It's a little heart-lifting to see so many countries chiming in to say "Hey, gently caress that guy" to Putin. Except for Holland itself, whose prime minister still refuses to call what happened an attack and does not want to speculate over who is at fault. Amazing.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:38
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eigenstate posted:Huh, Lukashenko is 2 years younger than Putin. The mustache makes him look older. So it's a toss-up if Russia can seize on his inevitable death and succession crisis. It's funny, I know that there are more issues that stand between a reunification between Belarus and Russia than just personalities, but I'm so convinced that the biggest issue is just that Putin hates Lukashenko. Like, if the latter were to suddenly keel over, all those other issues would magically clear themselves up the next day.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:40
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FAUXTON posted:It's a little heart-lifting to see so many countries chiming in to say "Hey, gently caress that guy" to Putin. Agreed. This is getting equal parts fascinating and dangerous. I can't see Putin backing down in a visible way, even if it's mainly symbolic, especially now that everyone is calling Russia out here. Most Russians now believe it was a Ukrainian/Western conspiracy, correct? His hold on power relies upon him being seen as grozniy, (terrible/awesome), will he just run the country into a ditch over this? Not that any of his likely replacements would be any better. AAPsel posted:Except for Holland itself, whose prime minister still refuses to call what happened an attack and does not want to speculate over who is at fault. Amazing. Hasn't the president, Rutte, been making some very pointed remarks? I don't know who wields more power in the Dutch system. e: oh actually Rutte is the PM--I feel like he made a pretty angry speech about this more recently, can't find it atm. rockopete fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 18:41
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