|
JerryLee posted:Are you joking or do you just not understand how rage works? if your opponent has no answer for your 1/2, you get to hit for 2 the turn after!!! all aboard the value train
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 10:19 |
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:if your opponent has no answer for your 1/2, you get to hit for 2 the turn after!!! A one-drop that hits for ever-increasing damage in the shard with the best combat tricks is gold in a draft format where the majority of decks are pretty slow. The only turn 1 play that beats a Cottontail Ronin is a Gearsmith that fetches either a Charge Bot or a War Hulk with the other in hand.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:34
|
|
|
sappers charge???
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:37
|
|
|
any two drop???
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:37
|
|
|
a two power 1drop???
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:38
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:if your opponent has no answer for your 1/2, you get to hit for 2 the turn after!!! It's not a fantastic card but it does have value. A 1/2 is already above cost curve, and with rage it has the potential to go much higher, depending on how fast your opponent gets out something to block it. It's not uncommon to get it to 2/2 or 3/2 before it has to stop or is killed. Then it's a 2/2 or 3/2 for cost 1 and one threshold. I'd still take feral ogre over it, but it's clearly superior to shin'hare militia (which is truly awful). That's why I'd put it at least where you put Moon'airu Sensei. I also consider it better than wild child because of its rage.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
If there's anything that doesn't benefit from having other cards on the field it's definitely a shin'hare.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
someone pls post a deck with cottontail ronin that won a competitive draft so i can admire all your bombs that actually won the game for you
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:40
|
|
|
Heh, you may think cottontail ronin is a decent one drop but, you see, *pushes glasses up nose* it dies to removaldongsbot 9000 posted:a two power 1drop??? The only two cards that I can think of that fit this criterion actually die to anything that kills ronin or, in the case of the R 2/1 must attack, die to more answers. Also neither of them will ever attack for more than 2 on their own. I mean, if your thesis is just 'aggressive 1 drops are bad' then that's fine, but I don't think that's supported by evidence either. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jul 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:43
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:sappers charge??? If my opponent uses a Sapper's Charge on my 1-drop, I'm generally ecstatic. dongsbot 9000 posted:a two power 1drop??? dongsbot 9000 posted:any two drop??? Most 1 and 2 drops actually cannot kill Cottontail Ronin, and with only a couple exceptions the ones that do also die in return, which is pretty good for you. Zurai fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Jul 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:45
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:someone pls post a deck with cottontail ronin that won a competitive draft so i can admire all your bombs that actually won the game for you That's hardly a fair challenge, finding a wild deck that won a competitive draft tournament is about as likely as getting passed a third-pick Vampire King.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:45
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:Heh, you may think cottontail ronin is a decent one drop but, you see, *pushes glasses up nose* it dies to removal i wasn't listing stuff that beat cottontail ronin, i am listing way better 1drops (and better cards). ruby and blood are aggressive shards so their 2 power 1 drops are cool. wild is not an aggressive colour because you need to hit 4,5,6 threshold to cast spells that aren't horrible. cottontail ronin will never hit for more than two by itself either because it can't attack past anything on the ground other than other unplayable cards (and worker bot). someone said cottontail ronin has some value, but that isn't true. it actually has NEGATIVE value. assuming your draft goes well, you have more cards in your two shards than you have slots for cards. if youre playing something like cottontail ronin, it is a really, really bad card. it is, on average, generously, G "deal 3 to target opponent". sure, you can imagine some scenarios where its awesome, but it's dead soooooo often. it's like stormcall, but while stormcall might win you the game, cottontail ronin's BEST scenario is where it does 3 and then trades for a three drop. if youre playing wild, great! you haven't done anything to further your true game plan, which is to drop dudes too big for your opponent to deal with and then winning. the little green cards are really, really bad sorry for some of the less content-filled posts, i just finished a draft which is insane (and i will easily crush anyone who's playing cottontail ronin)
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 04:56
|
|
|
Zurai posted:If my opponent uses a Sapper's Charge on my 1-drop, I'm generally ecstatic. Basically this. It is an early game threat that has to be answered. As a 1-drop if it can attack even a single time it's doing work for you - It did 1 damage and can block many much higher costed cards (all the X/1 aggro orcs, etc.) Plus if someone uses a removal on it, they've just wasted a removal or the Ronin has been raging hard enough to actually become a threat. A 3/2 or 4/2 is nothing to laugh at. Sure it's not the best, but it's not the worst either. It's quite solid in an aggro deck. As for the wild thing, have you guys looked at the Hex Draft spreadsheet? "Disappointment (Go RV!)| Wd Aggro| Kishimoto| 5/3/2/2| 2-0, 2-1, 1-2| Cottontail Ronin/Survival of the Fittest| Kishimoto + Survival is really strong. The other thing that's strong? 3x Ronin, 3x Survival, 3x Boulder Brute. " He even listed Cottontail Ronin as the MVP and got to the finals. There are plenty of examples of Wild doing very well. It's often outshined by other colors, but it's not like it never happens.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:00
|
|
|
my current hand is blood shard, murder, corpse fly, corpse fly, corpse fly with two blood shards and a sapper's charge in play this is the most insane deck i've ever drafted edit: i just drew another corpse fly
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:02
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:someone said cottontail ronin has some value, but that isn't true. it actually has NEGATIVE value. Or maybe literally everyone else isn't wrong and you mis-evaluated a card. Zurai fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Jul 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:03
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:someone pls post a deck with cottontail ronin that won a competitive draft so i can admire all your bombs that actually won the game for you
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:04
|
|
|
Cottontail Ronin is not a terrible draft card.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:06
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's hardly a fair challenge, finding a wild deck that won a competitive draft tournament is about as likely as getting passed a third-pick Vampire King. edit: man this thread is moving fast, got beaten Grim fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jul 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:13
|
|
|
Grim posted:There's at least one on the spreadsheet! 6, actually. Of course, at least one of those actually had a Vampire King in the deck, so...
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:18
|
|
|
i know i said that no one likes to hear bad beats stories not even yesterday and the goon opinion on me is pretty low because apparently cottontail ronin is a really good card but i just lost rd1 with this deck and i hate my life
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:34
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:sorry for some of the less content-filled posts, i just finished a draft which is insane (and i will easily crush anyone who's playing cottontail ronin) dongsbot 9000 posted:my current hand is blood shard, murder, corpse fly, corpse fly, corpse fly with two blood shards and a sapper's charge in play dongsbot 9000 posted:i know i said that no one likes to hear bad beats stories not even yesterday and the goon opinion on me is pretty low because apparently cottontail ronin is a really good card but i just lost rd1 with this deck and i hate my life This is amazing. Also, if my one drop deals 3 damage and then trades with your 3 drop, it pulled its weight.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:44
|
|
|
it really does feel like i committed some sin against the hex gods, haha query: what about all the games where you dont have a cottontail ronin t1. it's obviously horrendous if you draw it like turn 3 or 4, but how bad would you feel about playing cottontail ronin t2
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:48
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:i know i said that no one likes to hear bad beats stories not even yesterday and the goon opinion on me is pretty low because apparently cottontail ronin is a really good card but i just lost rd1 with this deck and i hate my life What'd you lose to?
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:51
|
|
|
dongsbot 9000 posted:i know i said that no one likes to hear bad beats stories not even yesterday and the goon opinion on me is pretty low because apparently cottontail ronin is a really good card but i just lost rd1 with this deck and i hate my life Holy poo poo. Just... what did they do? Draft 3 angels of dawn and then draw all of them?
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:51
|
|
|
Savage Raider is also pretty bad if you draw it turn 4 or so. I'm fine playing a Ronin and a three drop on turn 4. My opponent isn't going to care about my Ronin and will likely ignore it in favor of dealing with my bigger creatures. Also, sending a Ronin into something bigger and blowing them out with Wild Aura is really awesome.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:53
|
|
|
Cottontail Ronin is a bad card. If you don't draw it in turn 1 or 2, you can't actually attack with it in most games unless you have a combat trick. It's also a super lovely blocker at 0/2 since it won't trade with anything. If I have a Wild Child (which you can always pick up late in a pack) instead, I can group block with it even in the late game. Having a combat trick is a lovely argument for the card being good or even passable because any creature is better when you have a combat trick, but you're better off overall if you have a good creature instead of a crap one. Also,if your opponent is good, they're going to consider the trick. They may have a buff of their own, and they'll 2 for 1 you. Or they'll have removal and 2 for 1 you. Rage is not impressive in Wild. It has the worst removal and the least evasion. It's even worse on the draw. where you have less time to ramp up the power. If I go T1 pass, and you go T1 Ronin, and then I go T2 2-drop, your ronin isn't going to do anything unless you have a buff spell.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:54
|
|
|
If I play Ronin on the draw, you play your two drop and I attack, are you blocking? Arena Brawler obviously doesn't block, Phoenix Guard Scout blocks, I guess Wild Child blocks? Do you block with your Feral Ogre?
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 05:57
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:If I play Ronin on the draw, you play your two drop and I attack, are you blocking? I'll probably trade almost any 1 or 2 drop for your buff spell (and I'll take a free ronin if you were bluffing). The only exception would be if I was playing a very aggressive deck and didn't care about the damage you were dealing to me. If I'm wild I'll certainly take your buff spell, because you're not going to have it to deal with my 4/4 hexproof.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 06:01
|
|
|
King Burgundy posted:What'd you lose to? bad beats, mostly. i lost to a dwarf deck, which i think is my worst matchup since it turns off my murders and makes my evasion dudes pretty mediocre but i rattled off some pretty shard-heavy hands when i needed threats. i also didn't board out my murders which was rough since i drew them pretty readily against board states with no targets. that might've been a mistake since dwarves wins by 5/5s and pterobots, but boarding murder went against all my sensibilities. i was really close to winning g3 but my opponent had a good heat wave (pyroclasm) when he had the 5/5 active. it was a learning experience. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 06:03
|
|
|
There are some decks where I wouldn't play ronin over wild child, for basically the reasons that have been stated--if you don't anticipate having the tools to push him through, whether those are removal, combat tricks, buffs, whatever; or you don't have any other pressure between 1 and 5 mana. Also keep in mind when I say combat tricks, removal, etc., I'm not assuming you're playing a mono-wild deck, but even there he can be fine.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 06:47
|
|
|
I almost lost to a wild deck in the finals of the draft once, running a few ronin. It wasn't bad imo: 2+ ronin 3+ feral ogre 3+ Honeycap 2+ wild aura 2+ wild growth 2+ sapper's charge 1+ pheromones 1 crash of beasts hero was the +2 +2 guy It was interesting in that it was very aggressive, but without the 1 toughness issue that most aggressive decks have
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 06:56
|
|
|
Karnegal posted:Having a combat trick is a lovely argument for the card being good or even passable because any creature is better when you have a combat trick, but you're better off overall if you have a good creature instead of a crap one. Also,if your opponent is good, they're going to consider the trick. They may have a buff of their own, and they'll 2 for 1 you. Or they'll have removal and 2 for 1 you. Yeah, I also feel like Wild's combat tricks and just spells in general are way easier to read. Every other color I have to try to think about the possibilities and how to play around likely cards that they might have. Wild its like: wild growth, wild aura, the fight card, or GTFO and most of the time its really obvious which they have.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 07:33
|
|
|
Zurai posted:A one-drop that hits for ever-increasing damage in the shard with the best combat tricks is gold in a draft format where the majority of decks are pretty slow. uh...what? Savage Raider Burn Fang of the Mountain God Sappers Charge All "beat" Cottontail Ronin which, based upon your definition, I'm assuming means "trades evenly with on turn 1." These all have the distinction of being actually good cards, too, cards which have both high value in draft (Savage Raider and Fang being mid-range picks and Burn being a top tier pick and Sappers Charge being loving amazing, especially in p1p1 because you don't have to commit to a color for a top removal spell) Nevermind the fact that if he is really, really lucky and drops turn 1 and swings twice I can always block him with any loving 2 power creature I play, which means I will have taken 3 damage and traded cards (my actually good card for your bad card, I guess that is value for you? Except I'm not playing bad cards so it will statistically swing back in my favor?) which is not terrible for you, but if that's the Sick Nasty on that guy, let me tell you about Savage Raider, who will do more damage T1 than a Cotton Tail Ronin until Attack # 4, wherein he will be beaten by a single point of damage (oh hey Jerry not sure if you understand rage here bro... JerryLee posted:Are you joking or do you just not understand how rage works? I think you're the one who is wildly overvaluing a 0/2 rage. Rage is awesome on Thunderbird. Rage is awesome when your guy is gonna get to hit, or if his stats are already good, or if you're already winning. None of these scenarios really cross over with Cottontail Ronin. Cottontail Ronin is one of those skill testers where they get you thinking "well, a 1/2 for W isn't bad, and a 2/2 for W is pretty good, and a 3/2 for W is amazing!" and the trick of it is that he's rarely all of those but he's always a 0/2 to start with. The number of scenarios in which he is good is much smaller (t1 on the play vs any other turn in the game) than the number of scenarios in which he is dogshit unplayable garbage. Don't get me wrong, I think rage is a good mechanic, but the thing with Rage is that it shines when it is Rage: A loving Lot, or Rage: On All Your Dudes, or Rage: On an Evasive Critter.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 08:00
|
|
|
I'm just not seeing these apparently common situations where Savage Raider is massively better than the Ronin. Yeah, he will get in for 1 more total damage if they each get to attack exactly once or twice, but gets blanked by relatively more stuff, including some commonly played cards (Bombsmith, Sensei, 1/3 Phoenix guy all make him much sadder than Ronin, just for some examples) and doesn't live through anything that kills Ronin. And if the argument for him being a good card is that you can remove blockers or cast ruby aura on him, well gee golly willickers guess what you can also do with Ronin? Raider isn't even strictly better in a stalled late game than Ronin since with Ronin there is at least the chance that the situation will become advantageous for him to attack whereas Savage Raider just marches to his death like a chump unless he gets the chance to relevantly block on exactly the turn after you play him. It seems like in terms of attacking, the only times when Ronin's really worse than the 2/1 or the 2/2 are when they have exactly a 2/>1 blocker on the turn he's attacking for the first time. Every other case, he trades with the same poo poo, loses to the same poo poo, gets saved by the same poo poo. In terms of winning you a topdeck war on a stalled board, sure he's not gonna do that, but if you're playing 1 drops based on what you're going to be ecstatic to see off the top on turn 7, I have bad news for you. edit: I may be getting a little more heated under the collar here than is necessary. I'm just not seeing the logic people are using to claim that these other 1 drops are massively better, when it seems like a tiny corner case where they aren't functionally equivalent on the relevant turns. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Jul 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 09:03
|
|
|
JerryLee posted:I'm just not seeing these apparently common situations where Savage Raider is massively better than the Ronin. Yeah, he will get in for 1 more total damage if they each get to attack exactly once or twice, but gets blanked by relatively more stuff, including some commonly played cards (Bombsmith, Sensei, 1/3 Phoenix guy all make him much sadder than Ronin, just for some examples) and doesn't live through anything that kills Ronin. And if the argument for him being a good card is that you can remove blockers or cast ruby aura on him, well gee golly willickers guess what you can also do with Ronin? Well, Raider is a Ruby card. Ruby lends itself to aggro. Wild, outside of ogre does not. It's a mid to late game shard that tends to win by throwing big creatures at the opponent. Ronin doesn't play into that strategy because it's pretty bad in the mid game and godawful in the late game. In a Ruby deck, a mid raider can add one more attacker to push damage through on a full swing. If you get to the late game, you're probably losing anyway. The difference is that the Ronin is a 0/2 on defense, which is absolutely worthless. Any other guy at least contributes to a multiblock. Some creatures are less optimal later, but the Ronin is actually worthless most of the time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 09:13
|
|
|
Well yeah, you don't want to play him nearly as much (or at all) in the wild deck that's all about ramping into tyrannosaurs. I'm saying that's not the only wild/X deck. You can even play wild/ruby aggro! I feel like you guys are looking at completely different draft tables than me because even in the competitive queues I see a lot of cases where 1/X blockers show up on turns 2-3 or someone drops a bombsmith and ruby's typical X/1 drops get hosed whereas ronin is (/would be) at least able to do some work. The price you pay is being able to block less well in the mid-to-late game, yes. e: 1/x blockers not X/1 blockers JerryLee fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Jul 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 09:20
|
|
|
katkillad2 posted:Cottontail Ronin is not a terrible draft card. To clarify, I'm not saying I would play it in most of the decks I draft, but if I had a ruby/wild low curve deck with a decent amount of combat tricks I would probably include it. I play against so many godamn durdly decks that don't do anything until turn 3-4 that I place some value in the ronin, and the nature of the rage mechanic very often compels people to block it as soon as they can reasonably kill it. Which is really good if you're a deck looking to stop them from stabilizing! Because of cheap combat tricks you can leverage very quickly in Wild/Ruby: Ruby Aura Wild Growth Crushing Blow Then there's the blowout card in Wild Aura. Yes these cards are good with every other cheap 1-3 cost ruby/sapphire troop, but the whole point of this kind of deck is to hit a critical mass of early threats such that you threaten their life total from the outset. Yes if we separate out each individual card and judge them in a vacuum the ronin doesn't have the highest value, but it's a high upside card that aggressive Wild strategies WANT to be playing. It's just not to be confused for a card you can throw in a Shin'hare deck or a bigdumbgreen.dec kind of game-plan. All of these are points that have already been raised by Zurai, Afgad & JerryLee, and the argument that has been thus far made against the cards is that it trades card for card with some of the best cards in the format. We want this! I'm never going to pick a Ronin early in the draft, but if you offer something like a burn or sappers charge for my dumb 1 drop then go right ahead. I'll trade my 12th pick for your 1st through 3rd, and if you let it live I can start to leverage my combat tricks to force unfavourable trades. This is like aggressive strategy 101, trading bad cards for their good cards.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 09:23
|
|
|
I just try to avoid playing 1 drop troops 
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 10:13
|
|
|
Grim posted:I just try to avoid playing 1 drop troops This is a good base rule because most 1 drops don't do enough to take up a card slot in your deck. However, there are 1 drops that are relevant (hello, Howling Brave). I think the debate here is whether Ronin is a card you play outside of a 23rd card when the draft went poorly. Given the above posts, I think a question to ask might be "is Wild really the shard you want to be in to compliment a Ruby aggro strategy?"
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 10:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 10:19 |
|
|
Karnegal posted:This is a good base rule because most 1 drops don't do enough to take up a card slot in your deck. However, there are 1 drops that are relevant (hello, Howling Brave). I think the debate here is whether Ronin is a card you play outside of a 23rd card when the draft went poorly. And I do agree that it takes a lot to make 1 drops worth the trouble, but we're dealing with a draft environment where the 1 drops often wheel so we don't have to commit to the aggressive strategy right away. It's pretty safe to pick the 2-4 cost wild cards, as well as combat tricks early and go into the cheaper more aggressive strategy if you see these cards wheel, if you pick up some boulder brutes and such you can bail on the aggressive and go midrange and not lose out on anything. The core cards that make a wild aggressive strategy viable (solid combat tricks and wilds troops) can go in both decks fairly neatly, and it's very difficult to train wreck your draft this way. I'm not lobbying that Ronin is a top grade troop (comparisons to howling brave are unfair in most situations), just that there is very much space in the draft environment for an aggressive Wild/X strategy - and Ronin is a good pickup for that deck. Everyone's so obsessed with durdly dwarves and inspire troops that it's fairly easy to get enough early swings through that your Ronin generates its value back or becomes a lightning rod for removal. When you find yourself in that strategy Ronin is better than a 23rd pick, it's just that in any other deck you straight up don't want to play Ronin at all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 22, 2014 10:48
|
|