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HEY GAL posted:No, she's the one with the exploding tower. Are you thinking of Agatha? Oh, boy, that's so much better. =/
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Jul 19, 2014 21:07
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the_chavi posted:Oh, boy, that's so much better. =/
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Jul 19, 2014 21:26
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So who out there can tell me stuff about the Black Madonna? Some years back I attended a lecture by Matthew Fox--the Catholic-turned-Episcopal priest who wrote about what he called Creation Spirituality--where he discussed the Green Man and Black Madonna. It was basically along the lines of this article, though in both cases, I'm honestly not clear on what he's talking about. I'm also a little wary, looking at the article, about divinizing Mary to the extent that he does. I did find out about this particular Black Madonna, and I gotta say, I love that there's a Theotokos out there with battle scars.
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Jul 20, 2014 02:14
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The Franciscan Church in Vienna has a madonna with an axe buried in its shoulder  (supposedly the statue originally came from Bohemia, where Protestant iconoclasts tried to destroy it by fire. When that miraculously failed, they tried to smash it with an axe, but failed as well - the axe still remains) e: I skimmed Fox's article, and to be honest, he sounds a little bit, uh, crazy. Also, calling Mary a "goddess" should be a big no-no in the Episcopal Church as well. e2: Well, I guess it's less the shoulder and more the upper arm. But still 
System Metternich fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 21:37
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A question to all the Catholic goons: what do we know about the rites abolished by the Council of Trent? Do some of them still exist? What do you think of them? A reader at my church said that there should only be two rites, Byzantine and Roman because those are the only ones chosen by God. I don't agree with it, but what do you think?
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Jul 23, 2014 15:46
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Smoking Crow posted:A question to all the Catholic goons: what do we know about the rites abolished by the Council of Trent? Do some of them still exist?
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Jul 23, 2014 16:44
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HEY GAL posted:We know a fair bit about them, lots of texts survive. I like them, since they reflect a high degree of regional variation--the rites and music were developed by these people, by these communities, for themselves. If God acts in our religious communities, why should It only act to produce two rites and then stop? (Also, your friend is forgetting all the Middle Eastern/Indian rites out there.) He is of the opinion that if a rite was killed by a council, it shouldn't exist because God commanded it to not exist. His example is of the Celtic Rite, he thinks that no one should care about it or try to recreate it because if it was correct, it would still be in use today.
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Jul 23, 2014 16:47
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Smoking Crow posted:He is of the opinion that if a rite was killed by a council, it shouldn't exist because God commanded it to not exist. His example is of the Celtic Rite, he thinks that no one should care about it or try to recreate it because if it was correct, it would still be in use today. Wait, what does he think about the Tridentine Rite, replaced in turn by another council?
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Jul 23, 2014 17:02
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HEY GAL posted:He better not also be an Old Calendarist, then. He isn't an Old Calendarist. He likes the Tridentine Rite and thinks that it is the true Catholic Rite because people still use it.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:07
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You mean like the Sarum rite, Ambrosian rite, et all? There are attempts to revive them every once in a while, but they don't seem to stick. Catholic priests who use Sarum only seem to do so on special occasions. I've never seen or heard it, myself. From my understanding, they're not so much different liturgies as they are different local styles of the Roman liturgy. Sarum was also a major influence on Anglican liturgies, and occasionally you'll see Anglo-Catholics celebrating it here and there. First time I've heard anything like what your reader is saying, though.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:07
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Keromaru5 posted:You mean like the Sarum rite, Ambrosian rite, et all? There are attempts to revive them every once in a while, but they don't seem to stick. Catholic priests who use Sarum only seem to do so on special occasions. I've never seen or heard it, myself. From my understanding, they're not so much different liturgies as they are different local styles of the Roman liturgy. He says that he's quoting Fr. Alexander Schmemann. It's something about how we shouldn't be liturgical archaeologists because that leads to disunity in the church.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:13
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Smoking Crow posted:He says that he's quoting Fr. Alexander Schmemann. It's something about how we shouldn't be liturgical archaeologists because that leads to disunity in the church. Wait, Schmemann is an Orthodox theologian, is your friend also an Orthodox? How come this guy accepts Latin rite? As far as I know, all attempts by Orthodox Christians to use Latin/Western rite never were all that popular. I'm confused.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:20
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Paladinus posted:Wait, Schmemann is an Orthodox theologian, is your friend also an Orthodox? How come this guy accepts Latin rite? As far as I know, all attempts by Orthodox Christians to use Latin/Western rite never were all that popular. I'm confused. He's one of those "we're gonna reunify any day now!" guys.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:21
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This guy's ideas seem incoherent. Begging_the_question.txt.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:22
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Question for any Episcopalian goons: I dropped by a local Episcopalian church today to see their schedule of services, and one of their services is listed as a "Victory Service." I've never heard of this in the SBC - what is a Victory Service?
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Jul 23, 2014 17:24
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Smoking Crow posted:A question to all the Catholic goons: what do we know about the rites abolished by the Council of Trent? Do some of them still exist? IIRC, Trent only forbade rites with less than 200 years under their belt. Off the top of my head, till the sixties there were still special rites in Milan, Lyons, Greece, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, and for the Dominicans and Carthusians. I've seen a Dominican rite Mass. They have the offertory at the very beginning.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:30
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Smoking Crow posted:He says that he's quoting Fr. Alexander Schmemann. It's something about how we shouldn't be liturgical archaeologists because that leads to disunity in the church. Hm. Put Schmemann's way (assuming that's accurate), it kind of makes a little sense. It can be easy to get too obsessed with reconstructing things as they surely must have been at first. Makes me think of DC's many reboots. It's the idea that "That's the way God wanted it" that's throwing me off. Do Orthodox normally view post-schism Catholic councils as valid? Where does that put Vatican I and II? Also, speaking of Schmemann: what's the difference between a priest, protopresbyter, and archpriest?
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Jul 23, 2014 17:33
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Keromaru5 posted:You mean like the Sarum rite, Ambrosian rite, et all? There are attempts to revive them every once in a while, but they don't seem to stick. Catholic priests who use Sarum only seem to do so on special occasions. I've never seen or heard it, myself. From my understanding, they're not so much different liturgies as they are different local styles of the Roman liturgy. Well, the Ambrosian rite is still alive and kicking, as it is practiced by about five million Catholics in parts of Northern Italy and Switzerland. Other (regional) rites and variations that still see continued and regular use are the Mozarabic Rite (two parishes in Toledo and a chapel of the Toledo Cathedral), the Anglican Use and the Zaire Use for Central Africa (with lots and lots and lots of dancing). The priests of the Portuguese Archdiocese of Braga are all authorised to celebrate Mass in the "Rite of Braga", but most prefer to use the Roman Rite instead. I think some orders have special rites (Dominicans?), but apart from them that's it, I think.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:52
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Cythereal posted:Question for any Episcopalian goons: I dropped by a local Episcopalian church today to see their schedule of services, and one of their services is listed as a "Victory Service." I've never heard of this in the SBC - what is a Victory Service? I've never heard of such a thing before either. It might just be a special service for the day in question. In particular, it might be for VJ day if it's around the 3-9th of August.
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Jul 23, 2014 18:43
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Jaramin posted:I've never heard of such a thing before either. It might just be a special service for the day in question. In particular, it might be for VJ day if it's around the 3-9th of August. I don't know - it was listed as "Victory Service - Wednesdays at 6:30 PM."
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Jul 23, 2014 19:18
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Smoking Crow posted:He isn't an Old Calendarist. He likes the Tridentine Rite and thinks that it is the true Catholic Rite because people still use it. It's true because the church does it, and the church does it because it is true. Can't find any faults in that logic, it forms a perfect circle with absolutely no gaps to exploit.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:30
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Smoking Crow posted:He's one of those "we're gonna reunify any day now!" guys. So what does he think about many rites including non-Latin ones within the Catholic church then? Should all them be abandoned? It really makes little sense when a very ecumenically-minded person has objections to variety in liturgical live.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:54
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Smoking Crow posted:He isn't an Old Calendarist. He likes the Tridentine Rite and thinks that it is the true Catholic Rite because people still use it. That's not a Catholic position at all. I attend the Tridentine Rite, but you can't claim that it is the only true Catholic Rite. It is the rite for the Latins, just as the Byzantine Rite is the rite for the Greeks, etc. etc. The Tridentine Liturgy is not more "Catholic" than the Byzantine Liturgy, any more than Latin Catholics are more Catholic than Greek Catholics. I hold different views about the Mass of Paul VI however.
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Jul 23, 2014 22:53
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For interested Orthogoons, there's going to be a passel of hierarchs from the Middle East in town in September. (Came across this today while I was at work and, shamefully, thought more about posting this here than immediate foreign policy implications for my job.) http://www.idcsummit.org/
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Jul 24, 2014 01:04
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Cythereal posted:I don't know - it was listed as "Victory Service - Wednesdays at 6:30 PM." I've never heard of it either. Call their church office and ask, then report back here since I doubt I'm the only one who's curious about it now.
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Jul 26, 2014 14:41
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PantlessBadger posted:I've never heard of it either. Call their church office and ask, then report back here since I doubt I'm the only one who's curious about it now. I intend to ask about it tomorrow. 
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Jul 26, 2014 18:20
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PantlessBadger posted:I've never heard of it either. Call their church office and ask, then report back here since I doubt I'm the only one who's curious about it now. Trip report: the Episcopalian service was indistinguishable from the Lutheran service I visited. The "Victory Service" is just what this particular church calls their families-and-children oriented Wednesday night service.
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Jul 27, 2014 16:29
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Cythereal posted:Trip report: the Episcopalian service was indistinguishable from the Lutheran service I visited. The "Victory Service" is just what this particular church calls their families-and-children oriented Wednesday night service. Too true. :/ I actually have been going to the lutheran church here more often than the episcopal because goddammit, its closer to what i grew up in. (I grew up in a massive, high church, very WASPY (it was princeton, everyone is a WASP) very pomp and circumstance, big hymns, robes, cassocks and albs for everyone church). And here, the only thing close to it is the lutheran church. the episocopal one tries. it tries so hard. but it just doesnt have the membership to support that sort of a service, and the services are nearly indistinguishable outside of this particular church having much more of a prediliction for the apostle's creed over the nicean.
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Jul 27, 2014 18:23
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Cythereal posted:Trip report: the Episcopalian service was indistinguishable from the Lutheran service I visited. The liturgy itself is going to seem pretty similar, yes. I think the biggest differences will have more to do with things like theology, biblical interpretation, ecumenical relations with other religious groups, and social positions. Even then, some of these denominations with differing theological traditions are actually in full communion with each other, which means a member of one denomination can take communion at any of the other denominations, and there are provisions for sharing clergy. Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jul 27, 2014 |
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Jul 27, 2014 18:39
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Lutha Mahtin posted:The liturgy itself is going to seem pretty similar, yes. I think the biggest differences will have more to do with things like theology, biblical interpretation, ecumenical relations with other religious groups, and social positions. Even then, some of these denominations with differing theological traditions are actually in full communion with each other, which means a member of one denomination can take communion at any of the other denominations, and there are provisions for sharing clergy. At every Episcopal church I've been to, communion is open to all baptized Christians. Is ELCA not the same way? I only really have experience with Missouri, who are a bit...stricter.
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Jul 27, 2014 18:59
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Dominus Vobiscum posted:At every Episcopal church I've been to, communion is open to all baptized Christians. Is ELCA not the same way? I'm not sure. ELCA is certainly not as strict as LCMS but I don't remember what the policy is. I don't even remember if they have a churchwide policy, or if some autonomy is given to synods/congregations on the issue.
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Jul 27, 2014 19:07
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Lutha Mahtin posted:I'm not sure. ELCA is certainly not as strict as LCMS but I don't remember what the policy is. I don't even remember if they have a churchwide policy, or if some autonomy is given to synods/congregations on the issue. If I was to guess it's something similiar to the Finnish Lutheran Church. We are in communion with select churches only (all other Nordic/Baltic Lutherans and the Anglican Churches on the British Isles being the largest ones, I think) but absolutely no one is going to police it in individual cases and it's not really taught widely who we're in communion with. e: In communion this case meaning that there's nothing stopping any of the said churches' priests or parishioners working/visiting in the other churches' masses. Valiantman fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jul 27, 2014 |
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Jul 27, 2014 19:28
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I think "Full Communion" refers to not having to be received (that is, formally become a member) and being able to share clergy. I guess that means a Lutheran minister could serve at an Episcopal church, and vice versa; but a Catholic priest can't do so (or vice versa) without a formal conversion. When I took TEC inquirer's classes, I was told that some TEC bishops have even ordained Lutheran bishops, so the ELCA can have apostolic succession. At the Orthodox church today, coffee hour was a birthday party for a 94-year-old parishioner. The Dormition Fast is coming up, and someone recommended the upcoming Paraklesis service. Here's a fun question for everybody: what do they serve at your coffee hour? At my childhood Catholic church, it was coffee and Krispy Kreme. At the Episcopal churches I've been to, it'd usually be juice or punch (plus coffee, naturally) with various cookies, crackers, nuts, cheeses, hors d'oeuvres, stuff like that. At the Orthodox church so far, it's been pound cakes some weeks, croissants other weeks, depending on who's volunteering, and what I'm pretty sure is leftover antidoron.
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Jul 27, 2014 19:33
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I'll take a crack at this one from all the churches I've visited down here. Southern Baptist megachurch: granola bars, orange juice, lovely coffee. Non-denominational Protestant church 1: pop-tarts, coffee cake, coffee. Small Baptist church: small mountain of publix bakery items, coffee. Lutheran church: random homemade sweets, donuts, homemade lemonade, really good coffee (coffee hour doubled as bible study for the whole church - it was that small). Non-denominational Protestant church 2: dunkin donuts, coffee, orange juice. Methodist church: homemade banana nut bread, dunkin donuts, coffee, orange juice. Episcopalian church: coffee cake, cinnamon rolls, coffee, orange juice. And Southern Baptist church I grew up in: dunkin donuts, coffee, orange juice. Overall: The Lutheran church wins coffee hour/fellowship, hands-down. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jul 27, 2014 |
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Jul 27, 2014 19:46
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My parish doesn't have a coffee hour  Actually, most of the parishes I've visited in Texas haven't. There's cookies and juice after the Extraordinary Form Mass I attend sometimes, but that's the only exception I can remember. Some Sundays, the Knights of Columbus sell breakfast tacos, but that's it. (Well, and the LifeTeen Mass has a teen fellowship afterwards, but that doesn't really count.) My parents' parish (in Montana) has coffee, Tang, and donuts from a local bakery, but only for the Masses actually on Sunday - the Saturday vigil Mass doesn't get anything.
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Jul 27, 2014 19:49
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Keromaru5 posted:I think "Full Communion" refers to not having to be received (that is, formally become a member) and being able to share clergy. I guess that means a Lutheran minister could serve at an Episcopal church, and vice versa; but a Catholic priest can't do so (or vice versa) without a formal conversion. When I took TEC inquirer's classes, I was told that some TEC bishops have even ordained Lutheran bishops, so the ELCA can have apostolic succession. At Orthodox churches, the antidoron has to be distributed amongst the public. If the priest is unusually poor, then he may keep the antidoron for himself.
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Jul 27, 2014 20:36
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Keromaru5 posted:I think "Full Communion" refers to not having to be received (that is, formally become a member) and being able to share clergy. I guess that means a Lutheran minister could serve at an Episcopal church, and vice versa; but a Catholic priest can't do so (or vice versa) without a formal conversion. When I took TEC inquirer's classes, I was told that some TEC bishops have even ordained Lutheran bishops, so the ELCA can have apostolic succession. To walk that fine line, an agreement was reached that an Episcopal bishop would be present at every ELCA bishop installation, to bring the bishop into the apostolic succession. That way, every ordination the bishop performed afterwards would bring that pastor into apostolic succession. When those pastors eventually become bishops, they won't need Episcopal bishops at their installations, and after a few decades, all ELCA pastors will be under apostolic succession as far as the Episcopal Church is concerned. I don't know if there was any fallout in the Episcopal Church, but angered enough ELCA churches that a bunch broke off and formed Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC). These days, they seem to be an association for churches that don't like how liberal the ELCA has become, but have issues with the Missouri or Wisconsin synods (either doctrinally or historically). Edit: Forgot about coffee hour. My ELCA church does coffee and homemade bars most of the time. Azathoth fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jul 27, 2014 |
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Jul 27, 2014 21:58
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Azathoth posted:The part about Episcopal bishops participating in ELCA bishop installations is accurate. Officially, the ELCA doesn't make a claim to apostolic succession, but the Episcopal Church does, and it was a stumbling block when it came to being in full communion. For the Episcopal Church, not being in the apostolic succession would be a complete non-starter with regards to sharing clergy who were ordained by the ELCA. For the ELCA, the concept of apostolic succession is difficult to reconcile with the concept of the priesthood of all believers. Actually, there is some kind of option for new ELCA pastors who object to the Apostolic thing, where their ordination ceremony is slightly different. I don't remember all the details, though. quote:I don't know if there was any fallout in the Episcopal Church, but angered enough ELCA churches that a bunch broke off and formed Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC). These days, they seem to be an association for churches that don't like how liberal the ELCA has become, but have issues with the Missouri or Wisconsin synods (either doctrinally or historically). The LCMC didn't really take off until 2009 
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Jul 27, 2014 22:36
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In my ACC parish, we have banana bread, cheese and grapes with tea and coffee with the BCP service. On occasion well have some other kind of home baked goods like muffins or cookies. At the larger BAS service, there usually ends up being coffee, tea and juice along with store bought cookies and on occasion cakes. There only real differences between them are fewer people (35-50) attend the BCP service so it's easier to have home made goodies and there's less demand for Juice as there aren't any children, whereas the second service has childcare and thus children at the coffee time who want Juice and store bought cookies since of the 225 or so people who attend that service about 75-100 end up at coffee time.
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Jul 27, 2014 22:52
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Dominus Vobiscum posted:At every Episcopal church I've been to, communion is open to all baptized Christians. Is ELCA not the same way? I only really have experience with Missouri, who are a bit...stricter. Lutha Mahtin posted:I'm not sure. ELCA is certainly not as strict as LCMS but I don't remember what the policy is. I don't even remember if they have a churchwide policy, or if some autonomy is given to synods/congregations on the issue. quote:Holy Communion is a sacrament. God is truly present in, with, and under, the bread and wine. Through these common gifts, God imparts the extraordinary gifts of grace and forgiveness. When we partake in the Lord's Supper, we are not only personally strengthened in faith; our eyes are opened to the needs of our neighbors, and we are all the more ready to serve those in need. We welcome all the baptized - regardless of age or church membership-to the Lord's Table and partake in Holy Communion at each of our Sunday worship services. Also for actual communion, we use both normal and Gluten-free Wafers, and Common Cup, Intinction in wine, and Intinction in grape juice. Occasionally, we'll use a set-up of eating the Eucharist followed by wine/grape juice delivered in little tiny plastic cups (a church I attended previously would also use the same setup on occasion, except the tiny cups were glass rather than plastic):  Pretty much exactly this, with the center eight cups filled with grape juice instead of wine. So, have my and/or my church's beliefs given Jedi Knight Luigi a coronary yet?
fade5 fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 02:31
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