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dilbertschalter posted:Yes, but that doesn't explain China's current attitude about borders, which is very much the subject of discussion! There are many countries that came under full colonial rule that don't go around pathologically lying about historical borders and claiming territory they never ruled. Most post-colonialist nations don't have any sort of force projection (although there still are nations that do - for example, Argentina).
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Jul 23, 2014 05:00
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icantfindaname posted:China doesn't see any meaningful distinction between Japan and The West here, does it? Western colonialism was peanuts compared to the Japs marching in and burning half the country to the ground, and Japan is clearly not a western country. Where does Taiwan fit into this? I mean, I'm assuming there is no coherent thought here and it's just CCP officials stirring up nationalism to deflect criticism without rhyme or reason, but maybe not? Taiwan is not really talked about as a colony because they were a model colony and the Japanese weren't committing widespread atrocities there. It was operated under civilian governors and throughout most of its history before 1941 there was no effort of forcing people to adopt Japanese culture. This is one of the reasons why you get older Taiwanese people talking glowingly of the colonial period. Japanese colonial policy was very schizophrenic and doesn't fit well into the simplistic narrative the CCP draws from.
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Jul 23, 2014 06:20
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whatever7 posted:This is British preferred style of colonization anyway, having a very weak local ruler to do the dirty job for them. The Brits didn't want to rule India directly but after the up rising they lost their puppet kings. Once they ruled India directly they found out it was more profitable that way. Well even then, a significantly portion of India was ruled by puppet "princely states" that swore allegiance to the Queen/King of India. Also, as for "non-colonized states" Iran also was put under pretty extensive Russia and British dominance even if it remained nominally sovereignty. Japan is more or less the real oddity in that they were able to militarize and industrialize too quickly to really be subordinate for very long. In a way I guess they are a model. Obviously, the CCP relies on the war extensively as a matter of legitimacy although, the KMT and the CCP itself obviously conducted their own atrocities. While it makes since the CCP would never implicate itself in any wrong doing, the atrocities of the KMT being swept under the rug is sort of interesting. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Jul 23, 2014 |
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Jul 23, 2014 06:25
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Modus Operandi posted:You don't need to control the body of the dragon when you can control the head. Those ports were arguably the lifeblood of trade and controlling them is the same as controlling the country. Most of China was not administered directly through colonialism but it was in fact colonized by proxy. "Colonised by proxy" makes no sense whatsoever. Nor does "not administered directly through colonialism." You just mean puppeted, then. If it wasn't under the direct political control of the metropolitan sovereign, it wasn't a colony. If a country is ruling itself but subordinate to an imperial power, it's a vassal state. Big parts of British India weren't really colonised until the Raj. Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Jul 23, 2014 |
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Jul 23, 2014 10:24
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computer parts posted:Most post-colonialist nations don't have any sort of force projection (although there still are nations that do - for example, Argentina). How about Malaysia and Indonesia? Konfrontasi was a tough period for Singapore
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Jul 23, 2014 11:10
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Smudgie Buggler posted:"Colonised by proxy" makes no sense whatsoever. Nor does "not administered directly through colonialism." You just mean puppeted, then. If it wasn't under the direct political control of the metropolitan sovereign, it wasn't a colony. If a country is ruling itself but subordinate to an imperial power, it's a vassal state. Big parts of British India weren't really colonised until the Raj. If vassal kingdoms count as colonies then China has a more complicated relationship with colonialism than anyone suspected.
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Jul 23, 2014 11:32
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caberham posted:How about Malaysia and Indonesia? None if those countries have any force projection capability and never have.
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Jul 23, 2014 13:10
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Even China textbook call it "partial colonization/half colonization" period I don't see why would anybody want to argue it was a full on colonization. The difference being in Chinese textbook, the Manchus government was enemy #1 and the foreign hegemons were enemy #2. A lot of the blame were put on Empress Dowager for delaying China's modernization. I don't have problem with this narrative. However, nowadays I don't think a progressive and westernized emperor would have help Qing Dynasty that much. I recently read up on the history of Iran alot. The two Shahs did have considerable power and wanted to modernize the country very fast. Ultimately, they represented the interest of a very small group of people and their attempts failed. This would have happened to China and only delay the fall of Qing Empire for a few decades if an Kangxi type Emperor was put to the throne at the end of 19th century. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Jul 23, 2014 |
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Jul 23, 2014 13:13
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Then why was Japan able to do it?
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Jul 23, 2014 13:35
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Arglebargle III posted:Then why was Japan able to do it? Relax. China is doing what Japan did, just 80 years later.
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Jul 23, 2014 13:37
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Arglebargle III posted:Then why was Japan able to do it? Because the foreign hegemons were more interested in divvying up China, and didn't take Japan seriously until 1905.
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Jul 23, 2014 13:39
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Arglebargle III posted:Then why was Japan able to do it? Because ~Confucianism~. A shallow opinion to be sure, but China was not helped by a socio-cultural elite that was resistant to the sort of political, economic, and technological change that propelled "the West" to world dominance on an unprecedented scale, whereas Japan realized the potential of those ideas (though it almost didn't). That said, I think it's unfair to compare China to Japan, which was more successful than pretty much every other non-Western country and became a world power in its own right quite quickly.
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Jul 23, 2014 13:47
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Arglebargle III posted:Then why was Japan able to do it? China was much better prize to the west than Japan. Japan had to brutally colonize Korea to gather enough resource to complete industrialization. In retrospect was that worth it.
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Jul 23, 2014 14:05
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Then why was Japan able to do it?
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Jul 23, 2014 14:30
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Arglebargle III posted:Then why was Japan able to do it? Because China was right there and more interesting/rewarding? Japan was a hot dog cart outside an all-you-can-eat steakhouse. The hot dogs were left alone long enough that the mould grew sentient, slimed inside and said "make mine well-done".
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Jul 23, 2014 14:35
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Japan also had effective leadership. The Qing were already not doing well when the westerners show up in force. Japan was in trouble around the time of the opening too, but they got their poo poo together while they had the chance. Ruling Japan isn't nearly as much of a challenge as Qing China was. And for whatever reason, their reaction to westerners was not "Oh barbarians, we don't need anything from you" but instead "Oh barbarians, we don't nee--holy poo poo that rifle can do what? That daimyo next to me won't know what hit him, I'll take 5,000."
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Jul 23, 2014 14:44
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whatever7 posted:China was much better prize to the west than Japan. Japan had to brutally colonize Korea to gather enough resource to complete industrialization. In retrospect was that worth it. In a 20-30 year period, Japan completely overhauled its education system, military, political structure, economy, pretty much its entire society in other words. Colonizing Korea was important given how resource poor Japan is, but it's not as though China, for example, lacked the resources needed to industrialize- rather it lacked the political and economic system needed to do so. That and I'd say doing so in China was much "harder," even if there had been a forward looking government, given how linguistically and culturally fragmented, even though it was more unified than Japan from a political standpoint in 1850.
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Jul 23, 2014 14:56
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If Samurai Champloo taught me anything it was Dutch traders and a very important baseball game against some Americans.
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Jul 23, 2014 15:00
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Come on guys, haven't you all watched the last samurai or ruroni kenshin? Japan had a pretty brutal civil war and the meiji government did some serious house cleaning. See bloodnose and I learned everything from the Satsuma clan museum in Kagoshima. Oh yeah Korean colonization and invasion was labelled as "an incident".
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Jul 23, 2014 15:02
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dilbertschalter posted:In a 20-30 year period, Japan completely overhauled its education system, military, political structure, economy, pretty much its entire society in other words. Colonizing Korea was important given how resource poor Japan is, but it's not as though China, for example, lacked the resources needed to industrialize- rather it lacked the political and economic system needed to do so. That and I'd say doing so in China was much "harder," even if there had been a forward looking government, given how linguistically and culturally fragmented, even though it was more unified than Japan from a political standpoint in 1850. It was much harder for the Chinese because for the previous 2000 years,the only thing they had to learn from the outside world was better way to utilize gunpowder, better way to calculate the calendar and Buddhism. The culture of learning from outside simply didn't exist. Also the concept of nationalism didn't quite exist. You can argue it took an unusually long time from China to transfer from an empire to a nation state.
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Jul 23, 2014 15:32
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caberham posted:Come on guys, haven't you all watched the last samurai or ruroni kenshin? So, Japan had a brutal civil war in the 19th century that culminated in the government cracking down despite political turmoil within the government itself. China was different?
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Jul 23, 2014 15:37
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Arglebargle III posted:So, Japan had a brutal civil war in the 19th century that culminated in the government cracking down despite political turmoil within the government itself. Dare I say the Japanese invasion gave the communists breathing room to fight again. If blue China won, we would probably be still using traditional Chinese. Albeit going through a white terror cleansing instead of red terror. The country would probably be a lot more like south korea. Crazy Christian influences with military dictators before normalization for democracy. Yes the party apparatus will probably crack but I just don't see ccp breaking down in my lifetime.
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Jul 23, 2014 16:33
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caberham posted:Dare I say the Japanese invasion gave the communists breathing room to fight again. I think he meant the Taiping rebellion.
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Jul 23, 2014 16:52
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Freudian posted:I think he meant the Taiping rebellion. You have hurt the feelings of the people of the kingdom of celestial peace.
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Jul 23, 2014 16:58
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I'm very glad there's only one South Korea, but it would be better to have 0 of them probably.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:02
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MeramJert posted:I'm very glad there's only one South Korea. And it's not the one with a billion people.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:03
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synertia posted:Relax. China is doing what Japan did, just 80 years later. That's a pretty frightful thought.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:17
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MeramJert posted:I'm very glad there's only one South Korea, but it would be better to have 0 of them probably. You seen the girl bands they got coming out of that place? I'd take 2 south koreas, hell, even three.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:18
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synertia posted:You seen the girl bands they got coming out of that place? I'd take 2 south koreas, hell, even three. The "music" and "talent" coming out of south korea makes me think we backed the wrong side in the korean war, and maybe it's not too late to correct that mistake.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:22
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synertia posted:You seen the girl bands they got coming out of that place? I'd take 2 south koreas, hell, even three. South Korea is very bad. I've been there.
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Jul 23, 2014 17:24
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Baronjutter posted:The "music" and "talent" coming out of south korea makes me think we backed the wrong side in the korean war, and maybe it's not too late to correct that mistake. Does North Korea have JuchePop?
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Jul 23, 2014 17:27
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You guys are looking at this all wrong. With your eyes closed! Mama mia
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Jul 23, 2014 17:27
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Freudian posted:Does North Korea have JuchePop? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBBUTpBcCys
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Jul 23, 2014 17:48
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https://www.facebook.com/northkoreanssmiling
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Jul 23, 2014 21:31
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MeramJert posted:South Korea is very bad. I've been there. Do tell. What do I need to know?
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Jul 23, 2014 21:31
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Farecoal posted:i have turkey but it's covered with greece
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Jul 23, 2014 22:14
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Deleuzionist posted:it's ok, you can still serb it i was russian everywhere czeching to see if anyone wanted my greecey turkey but nobody wanted it. i guess iran all over the place for nothing
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Jul 23, 2014 22:35
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JaucheCharly posted:Do tell. What do I need to know? Everything about it is like a worse version of something else from either China, Japan, or the US.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:32
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caberham posted:Dare I say the Japanese invasion gave the communists breathing room to fight again. What's the deal with christians in asia? They aren't a thing in Taiwan or Japan or the mainland from what I understand, it's just SK. Why is that?
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Jul 24, 2014 00:49
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icantfindaname posted:What's the deal with christians in asia? They aren't a thing in Taiwan or Japan or the mainland from what I understand, it's just SK. Why is that? South Korea is the only country where Christianity has reached such a high level of importance (even though less than a third of South Koreans are Christians) but they're are plenty of them elsewhere in Asia (ignoring the Philippines, because that "doesn't count") and even where there aren't that many of them they have disproportionate influence in business and politics, e.g. Japan doesn't have that many Christians, but it's had eight Christian PMs (not as impressive as it sounds, give that Japan has had approximately one hundred umpteen billion PMs, but that's still a considerably higher ratio than for the overall population).
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Jul 24, 2014 01:18
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