|
Shifty Pony posted:Phone gps hardware is too inaccurate, especially in city environments, to be relied upon as a basis for commercial billing. It is "good enough" to roughly get your location but anyone who has compared phone gps tracked distance with a different measurement system will tell you that's about the only guarantee. I imagine that Uber has an algorithm that takes adjusts for GPS inaccuracies, because they send a map with every receipt and mine have always been 100% accurate.
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 07:56 |
|
|
Radbot posted:Have you ever seen how this is checked? Inspectors carry around a vial, fill the vial to a marked line, and then check that against the display. It's not that complicated, though you're right that I'm not staffed solely for that purpose. What sort of training or certification in weights and measures do you have to know that the method they're using isn't the proper method to use? This thread has a lot of experts about everything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:16
|
|
|
esquilax posted:I imagine that Uber has an algorithm that takes adjusts for GPS inaccuracies, because they send a map with every receipt and mine have always been 100% accurate. Have you considered that the map can be accurate and the distance traveled could be.... wrong?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:18
|
|
|
Condiv posted:I was under the impression uber didn't actually finalize the fare till you arrived, that it could only give a fare estimate in advance. Okay, so now we're against Uber and for taximeters because once Uber pushes out the current taxi monopoly that sets exorbitant rates per mile Uber could lie and push fares up to a slightly higher fraction of what the taxi company charges. This is indeed a horrifying specter when you consider that taximeters are infallible and impossible to beat by taking some tourists around in a circle, which is a thing that never happens because taxi drivers face stringent background checks that make it impossible for them to do that. computer parts posted:I think a woman would have a bit of an issue with getting in an unmarked car with a person convicted of sexual assault. Hundreds of thousands of women are taking that chance right now. Oddly enough very few of them have been sexually assaulted. This is because most people, ex cons or not, do not wake up in the morning with the plan of registering as taxi drivers or Uber drivers so they can stealth rape women in their unmarked car that just responded to a cell phone call placed to a number that's on file. Furthermore, to be totally honest, I'm also really not convinced that serving any kind of prison time for anything should prohibit you from ever driving me to work for  once you're off probation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:20
|
|
|
Citizen Tayne posted:What sort of training or certification in weights and measures do you have to know that the method they're using isn't the proper method to use? What are you talking about? I said I saw inspectors do this, I'm not an expert. You're kind of a dick, though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:20
|
|
|
Condiv posted:Have you considered that the map can be accurate and the distance traveled could be.... wrong? Not really. The fare is calculated by Uber and the driver gets the money, so the incentives aren't aligned to cheat in the same way as a traditional taxi. I would be much more concerned about a cabbie tampering with their meter than with that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:20
|
|
|
Adar posted:
No, there's not, because Taxi cabs are explicitly not unmarked vehicles.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:20
|
|
|
computer parts, I assume you live in constant fear of cable repairmen/women? Because they aren't fingerprinted either, and they actually enter people's homes, oftentimes when they're alone.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:24
|
|
|
Adar posted:Furthermore, to be totally honest, I'm also really not convinced that serving any kind of prison time for anything should prohibit you from ever driving me to work for If we had a sane system we would exclude the small number of murderers and rapists while allowing the hundreds of thousands of drug offenders and other minor/nonviolent ex-cons to actually support themselves and contribute to society but now I'm just being unreasonably idealistic  .
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:24
|
|
|
Tell me more about Uber, GPS nav and taximeters: More representative route. The reason we're talking about taximeters is so we don't have some rinky dink DIY homebrew bespoke app determining if your "independent contractors" are effectively getting paid sub-minimum wage for 30 minutes of driving.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:25
|
|
|
Radbot posted:computer parts, I assume you live in constant fear of cable repairmen/women? Because they aren't fingerprinted either, and they actually enter people's homes, oftentimes when they're alone. Again, you're not telling me why this regulation is burdensome or unnecessary.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:26
|
|
|
Radbot posted:What are you talking about? I said I saw inspectors do this, I'm not an expert. You're kind of a dick, though. The calibration method that inspectors are using is most likely out of an expert-reviewed and time-tested standard like ISO 17025. That you're going to call out the competency of weights and measures calibrators by saying "they just fill a vial to a line!" implies that you think you know more than they do, which implies that you think you know better than the standards in use. At some point in your life, you need to accept that many of these annoying laws and regulations are there to protect you, and that "disrupting" them because it's inconvenient for your drunk rear end to get home at 3:00AM might not be the best thing to do.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:27
|
|
|
"I'm going to rob/rape/murder my next customer, who has given my employer their full name, address, credit card info, and GPS coordinates of their last known whereabouts. This information is cross-referenced with my full name, make & model of vehicle, and current GPS location. The perfect crime!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:28
|
|
|
esquilax posted:Not really. The fare is calculated by Uber and the driver gets the money, so the incentives aren't aligned to cheat in the same way as a traditional taxi. Does uber not receive a percentage of the fare, which is why they were intentionally triggering surge pricing? edit: according to this article uber takes 20% of the fare, so they definitely have an incentive to cheat. Adar posted:Okay, so now we're against Uber and for taximeters because once Uber pushes out the current taxi monopoly that sets exorbitant rates per mile Uber could lie and push fares up to a slightly higher fraction of what the taxi company charges. This is indeed a horrifying specter when you consider that taximeters are infallible and impossible to beat by taking some tourists around in a circle, which is a thing that never happens because taxi drivers face stringent background checks that make it impossible for them to do that They don't have to push out the current taxis, they can do it right now and scam people out of varying amounts of money with little risk. Few people are going to be anal enough to do what you actually need to do to verify the distance traveled, and an extra .1 mile per passenger is a lot of profit to scam. Condiv fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jul 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:29
|
|
|
KERNOD WEL posted:"I'm going to rob/rape/murder my next customer, who has given my employer their full name, address, credit card info, and GPS coordinates of their last known whereabouts. This information is cross-referenced with my full name, make & model of vehicle, and current GPS location. The perfect crime!" If the company isn't liable (because they're all "independent contractors") why would Uber care?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:29
|
|
|
it is inconceivable that anyone, anywhere, might prefer a more convenient way to pay and be charged over the most precise measure possible, which is why I insist on weighing the sausage i get from the food truck to ensure that I pay exactly the same price per milligram each time
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:30
|
|
|
Condiv posted:They don't have to push out the current taxis, they can do it right now and scam people out of varying amounts of money with little risk. Few people are going to be anal enough to do what you actually need to do to verify the distance traveled, and an extra .1 mile per passenger is a lot of profit to scam. Okay, once Uber is Taxi Google we can worry about that and maybe implement some actually useful regulations like software audits to make sure that doesn't happen. In the meantime can we please pretend that we are arguing about reality and not about the world where Uber is cartoonishly evil while the common taxi company has your best interests at heart? KERNOD WEL posted:"I'm going to rob/rape/murder my next customer, who has given my employer their full name, address, credit card info, and GPS coordinates of their last known whereabouts. This information is cross-referenced with my full name, make & model of vehicle, and current GPS location. The perfect crime!" The common goon appears to like the idea of rehabilitating ex-prisoners until such time as they get a job that might require a goon to hand money to one in exchange for a service.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:33
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Again, you're not telling me why this regulation is burdensome or unnecessary. This isn't the magic bullet response you're making it out to be. If some combination of a) the regulation is preventing people who should be able to get jobs from getting them b) it doesn't actually lower the rate of crime against people who use taxis is true it's entirely possible that the regulation is burdensome, unnecessary, bad or whatever. Neither has side here has offered specific facts/numbers, so it's hard to judge. Imposing regulations isn't "free," as compliance costs time and money and there needs to be a benefit to the time and money expended that outweighs that cost.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:33
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:it is inconceivable that anyone, anywhere, might prefer a more convenient way to pay and be charged over the most precise measure possible, which is why I insist on weighing the sausage i get from the food truck to ensure that I pay exactly the same price per milligram each time This is a bad example because at the grocery store they clearly tell you the weight, the price per unit weight, and the final price on the label of a given unit of meat. Uber's system would be you ordering 2 pounds of beef on your smartphone, them putting the meat on a scale, eyeballing it so it's around 2lbs, and charging you the full price of 2 pounds of meat.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:35
|
|
|
Citizen Tayne posted:This really sounds a lot easier for the customer than just having a taximeter that is calibrated and certified and tells you exactly how far you went. Thats great, what happens when the taxi drivers takes a "short cut" that adds a calibrated and certified 3/4ths of a mile to your trip? What happens when the when the calibrated and certified taximeter's card reader is broken? Or when the calibrated and certified taximeter with the calibrated and certified and broken card reader reports $27 for the fare and the driver "doesn't have change" the brake the 2 20 dollar bills?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:35
|
|
|
dilbertschalter posted:This isn't the magic bullet response you're making it out to be. If some combination of Yeah, my point is that even that hilariously low bar hasn't been met and instead I get "you must just be scared of the cable guy that's why Uber shouldn't use the standardized background check system".
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:36
|
|
|
karthun posted:Thats great, what happens when the taxi drivers takes a "short cut" that adds a calibrated and certified 3/4ths of a mile to your trip? What happens when the when the calibrated and certified taximeter's card reader is broken? Or when the calibrated and certified taximeter with the calibrated and certified and broken card reader reports $27 for the fare and the driver "doesn't have change" the brake the 2 20 dollar bills? Clearly, the solution when you have a leaky roof is to burn the house down and replace it with another house with a leaky roof.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:37
|
|
|
Condiv posted:They don't have to push out the current taxis, they can do it right now and scam people out of varying amounts of money with little risk. Few people are going to be anal enough to do what you actually need to do to verify the distance traveled, and an extra .1 mile per passenger is a lot of profit to scam. The thing about cheating systemically is that you are very likely to get caught. Few people are going to be anal enough to chart the exact length of their trip, but when you have tons of customers you're going to get some of those people. And it's not like taxis don't try to scam people: they do all the time. You just don't do it by overstating how far you drove, you do it by driving slightly less directly than you need to. Or, you lie about how a flat fare works. The incentives are a lot stronger for an individual cabbie because he's dealing with a smaller number of people so he's less likely to hit one of those anal people. When you're dealing with as many people as uber is, the likelihood of getting caught starts skyrocketing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:37
|
|
|
Adar posted:Okay, once Uber is Taxi Google we can worry about that and maybe implement some actually useful regulations like software audits to make sure that doesn't happen. In the meantime can we please pretend that we are arguing about reality and not about the world where Uber is cartoonishly evil while the common taxi company has your best interests at heart? Doesn't require cartoonishly evil, it requires wanting to make a buck at the expense of others. Which uber has proven itself more than willing to do. By the way, I'm not going to pretend that taxi companies have your best interests at heart, but that's why they're regulated.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:38
|
|
|
http://www.kansas.com/2014/03/08/3332070/about-1-in-10-wichita-cab-drivers.htmlquote:When you get into a Wichita taxicab, you face about a 1-in-10 chance of being driven by someone with a felony criminal record. Possible reactions to this story: a)swoon in terror b)wonder about whether any of these 131 people have actually committed a felony* while on the job c)ban Uber for taking the jobs of these 131 upstanding citizens ASAP *as opposed to using their infallible taximeter to drive tourists around in a circle, which none of them totally ever did
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:39
|
|
|
haha who am I kidding Wichita has never seen a tourist
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:40
|
|
|
Adar posted:c)ban Uber for taking the jobs of these 131 upstanding citizens ASAP Adar posted:Out of curiosity, why do we even care if ex-cons can drive cars for a living? Hahahahahaha.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:42
|
|
|
Citizen Tayne posted:Clearly, the solution when you have a leaky roof is to burn the house down and replace it with another house with a leaky roof. Why are there so many houses with leaky roofs though? There's a widespread sentiment that taxi companies provide a poor service and that Uber provides a better one. I'll take Uber's leaky roof because it's leaking into a closet whereas with the ordinary taxi it's leaking right on my head. I'd take the house without a leaky roof but there doesn't seem to be one around  .
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:43
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:The thing about cheating systemically is that you are very likely to get caught. Few people are going to be anal enough to chart the exact length of their trip, but when you have tons of customers you're going to get some of those people. And the thing about cheating with computers is that you can make cheating much harder to detect than with humans. Like tell the app to never cheat if you have a new customer, or a customer that has made complaints in the past, etc. You can also make the computer cheat semi-randomly as well. You can do a lot to mix things up.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:45
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Hahahahahaha. you caught me, thinking that maybe banning felons from driving for a living is dumb while simultaneously disliking cab companies and cab drivers is not something anyone could do at the same time Condiv posted:And the thing about cheating with computers is that you can make cheating much harder to detect than with humans. Like tell the app to never cheat if you have a new customer, or a customer that has made complaints in the past, etc. You can also make the computer cheat semi-randomly as well. You can do a lot to mix things up. You certainly could. Of course this would be insta-caught by a halfway competent software audit at any of a dozen steps along the way so maybe that's a good idea for a city or state government to propose regulations around. Another thing you could do is regulate taxi medallions in a way that makes them not go for a million dollars apiece, but that seems to have eluded us so far. Adar fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jul 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:46
|
|
|
quote:Hahahahahaha. hey look at this post pointing out inconsistency in my argument, let's invent an imaginary one. seriously, there's no massive contradiction in sentiments.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:47
|
|
|
Adar posted:you caught me, thinking that maybe banning felons from driving for a living is dumb while simultaneously disliking cab companies and cab drivers is not something anyone could do at the same time You yourself just proved it, a felony conviction is not enough to ban you from driving a taxi. "Oh no, but think of the poor rapists who can't get a job now!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:49
|
|
|
computer parts posted:This is a bad example because at the grocery store they clearly tell you the weight, the price per unit weight, and the final price on the label of a given unit of meat. I said a food truck, not a grocery store. At a food truck I am buying "a sausage" of an approximate length. Precision has costs, and I may not want to pay those costs given the savings I'm likely to see from additional precision. It is why, for example, the idea I would manually calculate the exact distance my taxi should go and object when it goes .1 miles above that is ridiculous: that is not a good use of my time compared to the savings. We buy things eyeballed at 'about' something all the time. It's not to say that we can just throw precision out: it's great to regulate weights and measures and have everyone confident that's handled by the government and we don't need to be concerned everyone's cheating us all the time. But it's a cost/benefit thing and there's plenty of situations where we do not ask that things be made precise or regulated. I am not concerned about uber because tons of people carry smartphones with GPS that can catch if they're trying to cheat systematically. If they're merely inaccurate, but not deliberately biased, whatever, it'll even out overall.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:50
|
|
|
Adar posted:You certainly could. Of course this would be insta-caught by a halfway competent software audit at any of a dozen steps along the way so maybe that's a good idea for a city or state government to propose regulations around. Another thing you could do is regulate taxi medallions in a way that makes them not go for a million dollars apiece, but that seems to have eluded us so far. Of course a software audit would catch it. That's why Uber's iPhones need to be inspected and audited. Should GPS-based taximeters like the Uber app be legal from a regulation point of view in the future, I'd imagine an inspector would make sure the gps is functioning properly and within an appropriate margin-of-error, and that the device is running audited and approved software. Right now you get none of that (as shown by the picture above).
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 18:57
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:I said a food truck, not a grocery store. At a food truck I am buying "a sausage" of an approximate length. And how do you tell innacurate from deliberately biased. Like, how do you prove with your smartphone that the 2.2 miles uber claims you traveled is inaccurate? The gps in all of these phones isn't terribly accurate, cause it was never meant for precision measurement.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 19:05
|
|
|
computer parts posted:You yourself just proved it, a felony conviction is not enough to ban you from driving a taxi. Why does it matter whether the felony was one year ago or five, and why are background checks a silver bullet ITT given a pedophile was driving a cab for two years before anybody noticed? What part of this article struck you as a reason to ban Uber, the part where background checks don't work or the part where they're unnecessary because no one cares? But wait, let's examine Wichita's taxi regs a bit further: http://wichitaliberty.org/wichita-government/wichita-taxicab-regulations-likely-to-impede-progress/ quote:But Wichita’s regulations create substantial barriers to entering the taxicab market. Some of the most restrictive include these: A central office, staffed at least 40 hours per week; a dispatch system operating 24 hours per day, seven days per week; enough cabs to operate city-wide service, which the city has determined is ten cabs; and a supervisor on duty at all times cabs are operating. Hmm yes these sound sensible lets ban Uber and put up with expensive cabs in the interest of public safety *gets into murderer's taxi"
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 19:05
|
|
|
Condiv posted:Of course a software audit would catch it. That's why Uber's iPhones need to be inspected and audited. Should GPS-based taximeters like the Uber app be legal from a regulation point of view in the future, I'd imagine an inspector would make sure the gps is functioning properly and within an appropriate margin-of-error, and that the device is running audited and approved software. Right now you get none of that (as shown by the picture above). Guys, Uber could easily cheat you into paying $14 for a $12 ride *hops into Las Vegas cab, which takes the tunnel instead of the freeway* *government approved and inspected taximeter duly registers $35* *feels safer because the cabbie passed a background check (does not actually know whether he did or the results)* *is goon*
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 19:09
|
|
|
Condiv posted:And how do you tell innacurate from deliberately biased. Like, how do you prove with your smartphone that the 2.2 miles uber claims you traveled is inaccurate? The gps in all of these phones isn't terribly accurate, cause it was never meant for precision measurement. Dude who cares? You are a weird goon, so you do. Taxi companies care. Consumers DO NOT. Until a cab can get my friends and I to the bar faster and at a lower price than UberX, no one will give a poo poo about any of these discussions.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 19:16
|
|
|
Adar posted:Guys, Uber could easily cheat you into paying $14 for a $12 ride *hops into Las Vegas cab, which takes the tunnel instead of the freeway* "Guys, the butcher put his thumb on the scale and charged me for an extra fifth of a pound!!" - some loser that no one cared about. Oh wait, lots of people care about that poo poo that why gas pumps, butchers scales, and lots of other measuring devices used in commerce get loving inspected and verified for accuracy. Also, where I live UberX fares are slightly higher than a cab, sooo....
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 19:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 07:56 |
|
|
Adar posted:But wait, let's examine Wichita's taxi regs a bit further: So you think Uber should operate illegally in Wichita then?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2014 19:17
|
|
