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That wouldn't stop them from hiring Pinkertons. I wish A View to a Kill would happen IRL because the Bay Area is poo poo and the tech industry there in inherently toxic.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:07
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I work in a Bay Area tech company and while I don't know any uber-Randians, most of our actual developers are Indian. A lot of people do have some kind of "earned it all" type attitude. The people with business or finance backgrounds are the worst. Well, actually the pharma sales and marketing people my wife has to work with are the worst. Most people, deep down, wouldn't agree with the way they were privileged at the expense of others. So they need this fictive "I am well off because I worked hard" narratives to excuse themselves. Tech is just gigantic now and joining Finance, which we already accept is full of assholes.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:24
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RaySmuckles posted:My single anecdotal experience with this culture is a very close friend of mine who went to Stanford for both undergrad and grad school. Upon receiving his masters and getting a job through one of his professors came back with the opinion that "college is worthless." I get that the college is system is far from perfect, but for someone who has everything they have because of it to then turn around and poo poo on it is insane to me, especially since I don't have a college degree. Is he debt free? Obviously if the statement "college is worthless" was intended seriously and without nuance, it's a dumb thing to say. But is college worth going on subsidized loans? Depends on what you get out of it. Is it worth going if you finance it with usurious unsubsidized loans? Probably not. In any case, I'm sure your friend isn't thinking that deeply about it and is just dumb and blind. But what made me sometimes think "college is worthless" after I graduated was seeing how little many people were learning while getting a degree. For a motivated person an autodidactic approach is probably better for the pure acquisition of knowledge and skill; but of course that neglects the factor of degrees being a giant "EMPLOYABLE" flag (for no good reason, but it's true nonetheless).
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Jul 24, 2014 00:36
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Rime posted:So it can have three pages of people spewing racial epithets and then fall into obscurity in about an hour? Smudgie Buggler posted:How the gently caress is Unionism at odds with the unfettered free market? It's perfectly possible for collective bargaining to exist in a 100% laissez-faire stateless society. You know what couldn't? A corporation. They require acts of law to even exist. There's a reason why they always call liberals and conservatives fascist, its bevause the idea of subordinating their individual interests or their individuality to anything at all is offensive. Even if its a two percent tax rate/fines for cursing in public. They're overgrown children who have been indulged by their awful parents, by their very few friends, by their elite universities, and now by their STEM jobs. They are as antisocial and alienated from society than the most LF loser here, but they've embraced their loneliness and alienation on even an ideological level.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:41
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Filippo Corridoni, 2014 nonlibertarian and staunch ~defender of gbs~
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Jul 24, 2014 00:54
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SedanChair posted:Is he debt free? I think he is. That or he had enough help so that his loans are small. Plus he makes nearly six figures in his second (probably third this summer) year of work, so I'm pretty sure his financial situation isn't particularly troubling to him. Great friend of mine I'd like to add, so I don't want to sound overly critical. Its just painfully obvious that people like him are buying into techie culture; he's a bit up his own rear end regarding the tech world. Disruption, "Life hacks," the singularity, running the government by computer, etc. People like him buy the hype. Not because they're stupid, but because they're idealistic. They've seen how much the world has changed already and know that the world will continue to radically change. And they are the ones doing it. And they're being told by everyone around them that the sky is the limit, and it truly is. Of course we back on earth realize that the tech industry IS radically changing the world, but rarely for the benefit of the people and predominantly for the rich. These young idealists are being manipulated and/or bought off by having their work elevated and venerated as well as giving them something to lose (money). Its complicated, but I think most of us, if we were suddenly given wealth and prestige, would handle it poorly. I know I have at times in the past (to a much lesser extent, but in a similar manner) and I think its human nature to hold on to power and further interests that benefit you. Plus, a lot of these people DID work super hard, and ARE smarter than many of the people around them, regardless of if they were born with privilege or caught all the breaks. While the potential is within all of us, many of these people are the ones who harnessed theirs and made sacrifices (within their own personal lives) to achieve the station they have. So for us we shouldn't deride them and call them spergs or imply they have mental health issues, we should try to convince them that they DO have a lot to offer the world and provide them with ways to help the people instead of the corporations. Unions, organized labor, any sort of movement that can free these people from the echo chambers they live in and bring them to our side. Do we think stopping their buses or pulling off their obnoxious face-phones are going to shame them into our cause? No, these actions only push them away by making the fight between we the people and them, instead of the people vs the rich/corporations/systems of power. tl;dr they're pawns of a system that gives them more than we do RaySmuckles fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 04:59
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RaySmuckles posted:Of course we back on earth realize that the tech industry IS radically changing the world, but rarely for the benefit of the people and predominantly for the rich. I don't really see how it isn't doing it for the better. People do get rich off it, but all this radical change is hardly 'rarely for the benefit of people'. Cashless Kenya, having a literal 'ask any question you can think of' in the form of google, connecting people across the world and being able to communicate essentially instantly. Maybe you can think off some stuff that is 'only for the rich' but I'm pretty sure it's done much for for the common person.
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Jul 24, 2014 06:37
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quote:Why are (software) developers, almost unanimously, slavish devotees of Ayn Rand? Hey you're a pretty smart guy aren't you? Why would you support the lazy poor? You aren't a lazy moocher are you? Off course not, you're intelligent and hard working! The only reason you aren't as rich as us are those lazy poors pulling you back into the bucket. Vote Ron Paul PS: We'll need that app ready by tomorrow, bring your razor and pajamas.
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Jul 24, 2014 10:05
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MeLKoR posted:PS: We'll need that app ready by tomorrow, bring your razor and pajamas. A razor? I've eliminated the need to take time away from work to eat by drinking soylent and popping a couple of immodium every couple of hours to ward off the diarrhea from not consuming any solid food, but still I have to stop working to make my boss richer for three whole minutes to shave! Why can't somebody disrupt this archaic paradigm?!
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Jul 24, 2014 11:44
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why yes my auto shaver is a box filled with spinning razor blades, but I think you'll find I'm a software engineer, expert of anything I put my mind to
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Jul 24, 2014 13:07
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Lord Windy posted:I don't really see how it isn't doing it for the better. People do get rich off it, but all this radical change is hardly 'rarely for the benefit of people'. Cashless Kenya, having a literal 'ask any question you can think of' in the form of google, connecting people across the world and being able to communicate essentially instantly. Phone post so it's short. They gave us unlimited knowledge and communication. We gave them full control. Every search you've ever made, page you've ever looked at, access to a camera while you do that, your exact location etc. it's probably harder to fight/resist power in the US now than ever. Barring their ability to smear you, shame you, disprupt you, or always be a step ahead of you; they can still can, do, and will crack your head open like never before. We are living in the age of computers and disparity has never been higher. As if 2014, in the battle for equality, civility, and justice, we the people are losing. See: d&d for further info. Edit: but I do suppose I can look up the plot to my favorite anime a faster than ever... RaySmuckles fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 13:37
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Lack or reduced empathy seems to be an important trait, but the thing about libertarianism is that it has a lot of just-so stories. Minimum wage doesn't work because ~thought experiment~. Imagine you're on an island, devoid of history or shared cultural values, ergo tax is theft. These stories have the appearance of being clever, but they tend to oversimplify or make approximations that are not justified/run directly counter to observed history. In the worst case scenario, these stories function as moralistic parables: if people don't act like they do in these stories, then they're dumb, stupid or bad and deserve whatever consequences they get (as a kind of divine punishment). So if you're someone who likes to think of themselves as rational and clever, then you can just pull out one of these parables when you're in trouble. You live out the fantasy of having solved the EPR paradox, but for people instead of particles. I'm not surprised, then, that traditional conservatives are completely different from libertarians: there, you can find a kind of humility in the expression of traditions and their importance. "We are simple people, we live by the rules handed down to us, which have a kind of inner wisdom to them etc. etc". Look all you want in libertarianism, you will never find any kind of humility, or tempering of one's own ego. It's all about livin' the dream, having your cake and eating it too. Don't worry about acting like an rear end in a top hat, The Market will handle all, don't worry about making the world a better place, simply doing what you want will solve that somehow. rudatron fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 14:45
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rudatron posted:Lack or reduced empathy seems to be an important trait, but the thing about libertarianism is that it has a lot of just-so stories. Minimum wage doesn't work because ~thought experiment~. Imagine you're on an island, devoid of history or shared cultural values, ergo tax is theft. These stories have the appearance of being clever, but they tend to oversimplify or make approximations that are not justified/run directly counter to observed history. Actually I have an example that popped up on tumblr the the other day that I responded to that specifically highlights minimum wage and just going ~la-la-la-la~ in regards to actual observed history. Like these people believe this is any way a realistic situation for a good deal of workers/employers quote:(Scenario 1)
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Jul 24, 2014 14:59
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rudatron posted:In the worst case scenario, these stories function as moralistic parables: if people don't act like they do in these stories, then they're dumb, stupid or bad and deserve whatever consequences they get (as a kind of divine punishment). Not function as, are moralistic parables: When Charles Koch was in his 20s, he attended a business function hosted by his father. At that event, Fred Koch intro duced Charles to a local oilman. When the independent oilman politely asked about the young man’s interests, Charles began talking about all he was do ing to promote economic freedom. “Wow!” said the oilman, who was so im pressed he wanted to introduce the young bachelor to his eligible daughter. But when Charles mentioned he was in favor of eliminating the government’s oil import quota, which subsidized domestic producers, the oilman exploded in rage. Your father ought to lock you in a cell!” he yelled, jabbing his finger into Charles’ chest. “You’re worse than a Communist!” It seems the oilman was all for the concept of free markets – unless it meant he had to compete on equal terms
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Jul 24, 2014 17:36
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Charles Koch: Nasrudin
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Jul 24, 2014 18:14
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Even from a FYGM perspective I don't get the hate toward raising the minimum wage: Government: Stop there employer! You need to pay these people more! Employer: Well, OK but I'll have to cut a few jobs I suppose since a marginal increase in prices or a cut from profits is out of the question. There's room for cuts since I hired more people than I really need out of the goodness of my heart. So let's see here who's the least productive and/or easiest to fire... Employee: Sweet. I'm one of the harder working more deserving people here so I'll keep my job and there's less people for me to compete with so I have more leverage now. Customers: Oh the service and atmosphere here is so much better than it used to be. Edit: That said I do believe there are a lot of good alternatives to raising the minimum wage. Sephiroth_IRA fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 18:31
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I've been at about 4-5 tech companies and it's pretty standard to see a lot of socially liberal yet economically conservative types. What I didn't expect at times it's taken so-far as 9/11 Conspiracies which just boggles my mind. How can you be so smart yet so dumb? What I think is even more hilarious or sad is how "techy libertarians" claim to be so awesome, capitalism is the way to go, yet the same organizations they believe in so dearly play them... Apple, Google, Intel, Adobe Wage Fixing Case Infosys Abuse I don't understand how anyone believe in such a lovely ideal when it's clearly obvious it's not working. You can talk about lucrative financial compensation but when you factor in working through lunch breaks, on-call and 60-hour work weeks it's not as well-paying as they're made out to be... To bad unions are basically dead. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 18:50
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rudatron posted:Lack or reduced empathy seems to be an important trait, but the thing about libertarianism is that it has a lot of just-so stories. Minimum wage doesn't work because ~thought experiment~. Imagine you're on an island, devoid of history or shared cultural values, ergo tax is theft. These stories have the appearance of being clever, but they tend to oversimplify or make approximations that are not justified/run directly counter to observed history. In the worst case scenario, these stories function as moralistic parables: if people don't act like they do in these stories, then they're dumb, stupid or bad and deserve whatever consequences they get (as a kind of divine punishment).
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Jul 24, 2014 19:02
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I think this must be a North American thing as most software developers I've met here (Scotland) are lefty socialists - notable exceptions include the GTA developers.
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Jul 24, 2014 19:03
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Gantolandon posted:It's not as simple as "young people disdain the old". They have some good reasons to do so: That basically is just "young people disdain the old", though. Many unionized jobs in the US are having similar pension woes, but instead of blaming the employers who slashed the pensions, young people blame the unions who were forced to make concessions. The same is true for government pensions and similar services; young people in the US don't bother trying to defend Social Security against cuts, leaving baby boomers as the only ones protecting our retirements, but when enough of them die off that they can't protect SS anymore, the millenials will blame old people for cutting a program our generation never tried to protect in the first place.
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Jul 24, 2014 19:31
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return0 posted:I think this must be a North American thing as most software developers I've met here (Scotland) are lefty socialists - notable exceptions include the GTA developers. There is a libertarian streak in the white dude developer population in the U.S. for sure but it is a long way from being a majority let alone unanimous. This is a LF circlejerk thread.
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Jul 24, 2014 19:34
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Meanwhile, in the Uber thread in D&D:quote:Also, I know it hurts all your little socialist hearts, but the reason why libertarianism is on the rise is because people are sick of some regulations.
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Jul 24, 2014 19:51
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Main Paineframe posted:young people in the US don't bother trying to defend Social Security against cuts, leaving baby boomers as the only ones protecting our retirements, but when enough of them die off that they can't protect SS anymore, the millenials will blame old people for cutting a program our generation never tried to protect in the first place. young people won't get to retire
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Jul 24, 2014 19:57
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b0lt posted:young people won't get to retire The problem with finance articles like that is that they always act like if a person isn’t living an upper middle class lifestyle by the time they retire then they’re living in third world poverty. I mean at a 4% safe withdrawl rate $1.6 million in personal capital is $64,000 a year and that’s not including social security. That’s how much my wife and I currently make a year and we’re still financing a mortgage, some debts, matching a 401k, maxing two ROTHS, and will be supporting children. By the time we retire Anyway, I have a feeling that many of the boomers are going to change their tune on taxes when they retire. According to census data most boomers have very little personal capital saved and are going into retirement with debt so there’s no way they’re going to get what they were promised without getting more money into social security. They wanted low taxes when they started working in the eighties so I’m sure they’re going to demand high taxes when they finally stop working. The only thing that worries me is who they’re going to push the cost onto. edit: Man that article even seems like it was written so older people would not feel bad for millennials. It starts off about how we apparently won't be able until we're 73 but then goes on to talk about how excited we are to work until we die. Sephiroth_IRA fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 20:58
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b0lt posted:young people won't get to retire Maybe they should be defending Social Security and pensions then, instead of apathetically allowing them to be cut because "well they won't be around when I get old" in what has to be one of the biggest self-fulfilling prophecies in modern politics, right up there with "a government department was bad at a thing, defund it".
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Jul 24, 2014 21:20
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Main Paineframe posted:Maybe they should be defending Social Security and pensions then, instead of apathetically allowing them to be cut because "well they won't be around when I get old" in what has to be one of the biggest self-fulfilling prophecies in modern politics, right up there with "a government department was bad at a thing, defund it". Most young people will never have a pension to fight for and we've all been told by our parents that social security is doomed because our grandparents had too many greedy kids so no one questions that. Taxes are so evil that the thought of raising them to prevent old people from dying in the streets is anathema.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:30
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Rime posted:Programmers, and developers in general, have a bizarre fetish for the "unfettered free market", and bringing up any sort of unionization or labor movement with one inevitably leads into a frothing screed which would be very much at home on Free Republic. I am in tech and spend a lot of people with people in tech since freshman year of college and literally nobody I know worships Aye Rand in fact half of them loving hates her. Filippo Corridoni posted:They're overgrown children who have been indulged by their awful parents, by their very few friends, by their elite universities, and now by their STEM jobs. They are as antisocial and alienated from society than the most LF loser here, but they've embraced their loneliness and alienation on even an ideological level. 
Typo fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 21:31
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Main Paineframe posted:Maybe they should be defending Social Security and pensions then, instead of apathetically allowing them to be cut because "well they won't be around when I get old" in what has to be one of the biggest self-fulfilling prophecies in modern politics, right up there with "a government department was bad at a thing, defund it". Right now exists as a way of having the younger generation of Americans who are getting screwed by a combination of bad economic policies/automation/globalization/being-told-going-to-college-for-liberalarts-will-get-you-a-job effectively subsidizing the older generation which cruised along on the golden age of regulated capitalism 1945-1973. It's basically a way of transferring wealth from a generation more screwed over to a generation less screwed over so I can see why our generation is resentful towards it. quote:Most young people will never have a pension to fight for and we've all been told by our parents that social security is doomed because our grandparents had too many greedy kids so no one questions that.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:36
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return0 posted:I think this must be a North American thing as most software developers I've met here (Scotland) are lefty socialists - notable exceptions include the GTA developers. What are Sam and Dan Housers politics?
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Jul 24, 2014 21:54
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Rime posted:Programmers, and developers in general, have a bizarre fetish for the "unfettered free market", and bringing up any sort of unionization or labor movement with one inevitably leads into a frothing screed which would be very much at home on Free Republic. Oh gently caress off. That a good answer for you?
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Jul 24, 2014 21:55
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Typo posted:Chances are SS is gonna be screwed because generation X/Y/Z aren't having enough kids. The easy fix for that would be a combination of uncapping the payroll tax and making immigration to the United States easier.
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Jul 24, 2014 21:57
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RaySmuckles posted:Phone post so it's short. They gave us unlimited knowledge and communication. We gave them full control. Every search you've ever made, page you've ever looked at, access to a camera while you do that, your exact location etc. it's probably harder to fight/resist power in the US now than ever. Barring their ability to smear you, shame you, disprupt you, or always be a step ahead of you; they can still can, do, and will crack your head open like never before. This is only because you have something to lose and want to maintain a bourgeois lifestyle. Technology has helped the truly oppressed around the world band together and fight oppressive regimes. Who cares what the regime has on you, when you can coordinate IED attacks, protests, etc. with ease? The man can't fight true chaos. The US is a much less violent place than much of the developing world, so here you see a lot of subversion done via commerce. Then there's the whole "sharing economy" thing where people just evade regulation and taxes, online dating/hook up apps where people subvert traditional conceptions of dating and relationships, online shopping where much of retail's business model is subverted by price transparency, etc. etc. Slobjob Zizek fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 22:04
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:The easy fix for that would be a combination of uncapping the payroll tax and making immigration to the United States easier. Is it? I mean demographics isn't unique to the US, to get away from the OP's topic (which is frankly pretty stupid so I don't feel guilty about derailing), most developing countries have declining fertility rate too (i.e Mexico's is around replacement rate). Where is the US going to get its immigrants from without hurting the economies of said countries?
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Jul 24, 2014 22:19
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WMain00 posted:Oh gently caress off. No, and I'm sad that it took three days for you people to start crawling out of the woodwork. 
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Jul 24, 2014 22:24
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Rime posted:No, and I'm sad that it took three days for you people to start crawling out of the woodwork. People with jobs don't have time to keep up up-to-minute with D&D rageposts 
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Jul 24, 2014 22:26
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:The easy fix for that would be a combination of uncapping the payroll tax and making immigration to the United States easier. That'd be perfect, kick down that ladder of a protected labor pool just as the last boomers sail into the sunset.
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Jul 24, 2014 22:32
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Rime posted:No, and I'm sad that it took three days for you people to start crawling out of the woodwork. Personally I've read Ayn Rand and find her works to be protentious fluff but sadly her ideals seem to have been taken to heart by modern society. Most software developers I've met are fully aware of the work situation they are in, particularly of the strain, excessive work load and times asked, but sadly they've grown used to it. The alernative is unemployment. I'd be curious though as to why you think it's okay to lump software developers into the category of "right wing liberterians". I'm fairly left wing myself, but perhaps I'm in the minority.
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Jul 24, 2014 22:33
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WMain00 posted:I'd be curious though as to why you think it's okay to lump software developers into the category of "right wing liberterians". I'm fairly left wing myself, but perhaps I'm in the minority. No, I think it's probably the opposite: a vocal minority spouting their right-wing free market tripe. Most of the devs in my peer group are either apolitical or fairly hardcore lefties.
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Jul 24, 2014 22:43
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Typo posted:Is it? Yes. As it stands, when SS goes "bankrupt", i.e. the trust fund runs out, around 2033, SS will still be taking in around 75% of what it needs through payroll taxes. Lifting the cap to $250k I believe the CBO has estimated would extend it's life for another 12 years. Lifting it entirely and capping payouts to the richest recipients would extend it indefinitely. Frankly one of the problems with it is everyone is retarded with how government works and the boomers think the SS trust fund has been "stolen" because they don't understand that the money is in treasury bonds because leaving $3 trillion sitting around in a giant account is dumb as hell and keep telling their kids SS is hosed.
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Jul 24, 2014 22:44
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Huragok posted:No, I think it's probably the opposite: a vocal minority spouting their right-wing free market tripe. Most of the devs in my peer group are either apolitical or fairly hardcore lefties. Is my thought as well.
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Jul 24, 2014 22:47
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