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I assumed it was a hypothetical Obrimos with more than two arcana, viewing those arcana through the Aethers lens, though I guess the description is a little unclear.
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Jul 23, 2014 20:43
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I could see authority falling under Prime because Prime represents the raw fiat that precedes anything existing or happening, but you could conceivably note that someone is a leader in the narrative/abstract sense with Fate, the straightforward social sense with Mind, or the emergent and metaphorical sense with Spirit. My guess is that those are all examples of Forces and Prime, though, with the sun stuff being both Arcana overlaid because sunlight has both basely energetic and numinously symbolic qualities.
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Jul 23, 2014 20:48
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Ferrinus posted:Reaaaallly interesting. One thing that happens in a game in which everyone's Path-based Mage Sight is just always on (and, in fact, demands willpower points to turn off) is that unusual or important things demand really long descriptions. Path-based Active Sight being free but giving you a generalized dicepool penalty while it's in use (and I guess draining 1 wp for every consecutive hour? Can you just flicker it on and off...?) is a good way to cut down on the kind of overflowing description. Players still can and indeed are entitled to get at it, but the distraction and occasional cost explains why they don't have it going 24/7. Generally speaking, the gradient set up between the physical and supernal, and the reinforcement of the idea that the supernal thrums behind everything, is exactly what I want to see. It also makes the very common 'have a mate ritual-cast a sight you don't have but need for near-eternity' less tenable unless sights are designed to be pauseable (or a merit allows you to drop the cost/penalty or close the "eyelid"). Which also means that players will have to be creative when trying to passively tag someone with a spell as a disguise-defeating identifier. Do multiple sights stack cost/penalties?
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Jul 23, 2014 21:01
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It seems like entering Focused Mage Sight through all ten Arcana instead of your two Path Arcana will cost you 8 Mana, but past that all the penalties and willpower taxes and so on are the same. I wonder if you have to spend that Mana all at once, such that your Gnosis effectively caps how many different colors your Predator mask has to render your surroundings with. It's cool how "free, permanent Focused Mage Sight" provides a basic template for what Ascension might look like. Presumably, if you were just... always like that, at no per-turn Willpower cost and with no disorientation, seeing and interacting with the Supernal by default, well, you've won! Sort of, anyway. Here's a question: are there still practices of Knowing and Unveiling? Seems like Active Mage Sight is Unveiling and Focused Mage Sight is Knowing in basically all particulars. Oh, no, I think I've got it - specific spells in those practices deliver the same information that Mage Sight does, but in a controlled and specific way that doesn't manifest as overwhelming and disorienting hallucinations. So if you want to be able to see spirits flitting around without spending 1m (unless you're a Thyrsus) and taking a -2 universal action penalty to do so, you cast the actual Speak With Spirits spell or some equivalent.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:26
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Gerund posted:It also makes the very common 'have a mate ritual-cast a sight you don't have but need for near-eternity' less tenable unless sights are designed to be pauseable (or a merit allows you to drop the cost/penalty or close the "eyelid"). Stacking penalties - the Mana cost for adding extra Arcana in stacks, but the distraction penalty doesn't. We'll see what that does in playtesting. It's an Unveiling spell to grant another Mage your Sight, by the way - you can all look at the same thing if you want to. Different Paths can have different perspectives on the same phenomena. The imagery I always come back to is the parts in The Invisibles where extra-normal things appear completely different depending on which character is looking at them.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:29
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I like the number of supernatural traits mages are getting that aren't just magic spells. It does a lot to make them feel like monsters in their own right. My one point of dissatisfaction is that I keep getting the feeling that the rules we see are using Mana out of obligation to the tradition of a Mana bar rather than because the writers are overflowing with cool ideas to make Mana a meaningful resource.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:30
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Ferrinus posted:Here's a question: are there still practices of Knowing and Unveiling? Seems like Active Mage Sight is Unveiling and Focused Mage Sight is Knowing in basically all particulars. Oh, no, I think I've got it - specific spells in those practices deliver the same information that Mage Sight does, but in a controlled and specific way that doesn't manifest as overwhelming and disorienting hallucinations. So if you want to be able to see spirits flitting around without spending 1m (unless you're a Thyrsus) and taking a -2 universal action penalty to do so, you cast the actual Speak With Spirits spell or some equivalent. Exactly. There's still plenty for those two practices to cover. Same as we still have a Shielding practice despite Mage Armor also no longer being a spell.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:30
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Exactly. There's still plenty for those two practices to cover. Same as we still have a Shielding practice despite Mage Armor also no longer being a spell. You could do all of that with some combination of Ruling, Weaving, and Fraying, though. Well, actually, this touches on a more central point: is FWC thinking of Practices as "do ___ TO the Arcanum" or "do ___ WITH the Arcanum"? Like, do I use Fraying Forces to telekinetically batter a person, or to do I use Fraying Forces to disrupt an otherwise concentrated telekinetic battering? It was sort of both in the Awakening core.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:35
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Ferrinus posted:It's cool how "free, permanent Focused Mage Sight" provides a basic template for what Ascension might look like. Presumably, if you were just... always like that, at no per-turn Willpower cost and with no disorientation, seeing and interacting with the Supernal by default, well, you've won! Sort of, anyway. It does raise the possibility of sufficiently Focused mages seeing not just angels and whatnot, but Ascended archmagi going about doing whatever such critters do, with the bonus of being more directly noticeable to such beings. Mage Sight as the mystic equivalent of poking one's head out of a WW1 trench for a quick look around.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:43
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Dammit Who? posted:It does raise the possibility of sufficiently Focused mages seeing not just angels and whatnot, but Ascended archmagi going about doing whatever such critters do, with the bonus of being more directly noticeable to such beings. Mage Sight as the mystic equivalent of poking one's head out of a WW1 trench for a quick look around. This squares really nicely with the Mage game I'm in basically containing the cast of Blackadder Goes Forth.
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Jul 23, 2014 21:45
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Very very cool changes to Mage Sight. The thing that struck me about the example used is how something like that could be used to give an Obrimos an edge in social situations by being able to pick out who really has the authority. That is a really nice little thing and helps give each Path/Arcanum its own unique flavor and way of interacting with other people.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:35
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Dave and I sussed the basic idea out while brainstorming how to: 1) Make Mana worthwhile. 2) Make Mage specifically investigation oriented. 3) Reduce the amount of dice rolling. (I'll take credit for the basic concept of "bidding up" Mage Sight, though the Supernal overlay stuff is pure Dave, AFAIK.) While it's one of a number of conceptually similar staged things, I think that this particular element is going to be central to the experience of being a mage, and provide that conceptual shift to define who they are.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:13
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The supernal overlay is really great. The Realms as something you can try to dive into straight out but get increasingly overwhelmed by is way more engaging as the Realms as a distant and unreachable hypothetical, and the best part of the change is that it doesn't even feel like a change - it feels like a correction of a long-standing oversight. Like, why the hell wasn't the setting described that way in the first place? It defies explanation.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:17
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Indeed, we've gone from defying explanation to deifying it. It's a strict upgrade.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:57
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Question for Dave/Malcolm: does peripheral mage sight vary functionally with Path as opposed to just aesthetically? Like, I understand that if an Obrimos wants to see the current coursing through power lines and measure the exact air pressure on their skin and avail themselves of the current temperature etc. they need to use active mage sight, but do the Paths get any built-in sensory Attainments or whatever that distinguish their day-to-day sensory experiences? It wouldn't feel right if you couldn't get an Obrimos's attention with a dog whistle or if a Moros couldn't immediately tell that a house was haunted, even if actually analyzing the noise or seeing the dematerialized ghost required concerted effort. Related question: is there any discussion as to why peripheral Mage Sight always automatically picks up "supernatural" activity, and of what "supernatural" means (or is believed to mean) in the context of Mage? For instance, a ghost manifesting and a corpse rotting away are both inscribed with the supernal symbol of Death (presumably), but only the former actually gets a Moros's attention... but aren't they both, in a sense, run-of-the-mill and equally "natural" fallen world phenomena? Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 02:04
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Just saying that I'm hyped as hell for everything we've seen of Mage - after some time with the setting, I appreciate the refinements/clarifications going on. The new take on the Supernal is fantastic, and a friend of mine made the comparison between the new portrayal of the Abyss and MissingNo/the incredible things that happen when a jankily coded game starts to fall apart, and came up with the idea of a Scelestus that originally started as a scholar of bizarre interactions of Abyssal anti-symbols and Supernal symbols.
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Jul 24, 2014 02:19
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Ferrinus posted:Question for Dave/Malcolm: does peripheral mage sight vary functionally with Path as opposed to just aesthetically? Like, I understand that if an Obrimos wants to see the current coursing through power lines and measure the exact air pressure on their skin and avail themselves of the current temperature etc. they need to use active mage sight, but do the Paths get any built-in sensory Attainments or whatever that distinguish their day-to-day sensory experiences? It wouldn't feel right if you couldn't get an Obrimos's attention with a dog whistle or if a Moros couldn't immediately tell that a house was haunted, even if actually analyzing the noise or seeing the dematerialized ghost required concerted effort.  My wager is that the supernatural act has symbolic weight, while the normal occurrence is so much noise ahead of the signal. Also just staple the cool but underused demesne arcana effects to peripheral sight.
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Jul 24, 2014 02:57
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Right, it seems to me that if "supernatural" things always make themselves known to the peripheral sight - even if they're of a type that has nothing to do whatsoever with the Path/Legacy/whatever of the mage in question - that implies to me that "supernatural" - well, "supernatural power" - is somewhere on the spectrum between mundane and supernal, rather than just being one of many kinds of fallen happenstance. I'm partial to the setup in which a ghost using its numina is no more or less supernal than a snake injecting poison through its fangs or some water flowing downhill. On the other hand, I realize that "someone's using a special power" is a pretty useful generic attention hook, and that giving mages active mage sight rather than peripheral mage sight by default puts a pretty heavy burden on the Storyteller, so I'm ambivalent.
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Jul 24, 2014 03:22
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Ferrinus posted:Question for Dave/Malcolm: does peripheral mage sight vary functionally with Path as opposed to just aesthetically? Like, I understand that if an Obrimos wants to see the current coursing through power lines and measure the exact air pressure on their skin and avail themselves of the current temperature etc. they need to use active mage sight, but do the Paths get any built-in sensory Attainments or whatever that distinguish their day-to-day sensory experiences? It wouldn't feel right if you couldn't get an Obrimos's attention with a dog whistle or if a Moros couldn't immediately tell that a house was haunted, even if actually analyzing the noise or seeing the dematerialized ghost required concerted effort. The direct Path benefit is the 0 Mana cost for exercising Active Mage Sight with Ruling Arcana. As far as *Peripheral* Mage Sight goes . . . I don't know. I helped brainstorm it, but I'm working on something else completely. I am sympathetic to a "spider sense" but that has to be balanced against other things, including theme--we want mages to do legwork to find stuff out and break the reactive habits people often fall into. Not my call.
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Jul 24, 2014 03:36
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The advantage of assuming that peripheral mage sight involves low-key, surface-level awareness of Path-related phenomena is that instead of just "you notice a supernatural power in use nearby", you can draw PCs into mysteries with stuff like "you notice that the woman in front of you in the cafeteria line is not aging" or "as you step on the flagstone, you notice it has no sympathy whatsoever to the adjacent flagstones, though every other one you've felt through the soles of your boots has". The disadvantage, of course, is that three characters on three different Paths are going to implicitly demand a lot of detail just for walking into a room together, and there's a pretty high risk of "oops, wait, all along you should've been aware that-". In theory, you could pick one or two basic things for a Path spider-sense to pick up and leave the rest in the world of -2 distraction penalty active mage sight... but how the hell do you decide what they are? Obrimos can always see WiFi but not heat? This is probably the sort of thing that smooths over when the logic behind peripheral sight picking up "supernatural powers" in general becomes more clear, especially if even that base-level radar is Path-oriented somehow. Like, even if it's as simple as "if the supernatural phenomenon you detect is related to one or both of your ruling Arcana, you learn which." That way it's the Moros who has the most immediately knowledgeable look on their face if there's a secret alchemical laboratory in the walk-in closet, even if all they can immediately say is a-ha, something's weird with the local Matter.
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Jul 24, 2014 03:51
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According to the sidebar, Mark Rein·Hagen will be doing an Ask Me Anything thread on Reddit at 2pm Eastern on Friday.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:21
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I Googled Mark to see what he's been up to since I don't follow this stuff that much these days. Apparently he's making a zombie game the premise of which sounds like a lame White Wolf rip-off game, but the art style and mechanics are pretty cool. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/make-believegames/i-am-zombie-field-manual-rpgx
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Jul 24, 2014 13:23
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Well, "White Wolf" has expanded to "Baking the social elements of your setting in in any fashion," especially when there's any way to connect it to that design, so I don't know--it might not seem quite that way without him. (Though you can certainly draw a line from what he did then and what he's doing now.) That said, the system creates characters by drawing cards and has a bunch of other features that make it non-Storyteller. It is interesting to see game design go forward with more appreciation for so-called soft elements like visual design. I personally want to see Exile come back in some form.
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Jul 24, 2014 16:47
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Hi guys (first time posting in this thread). So DriveThruRPG is having a sale on a lot of products, and I'm looking for some books to buy. The game I'm more experienced with is Hunter: The Reckoning (I know, I know), probably because my friends were too lazy to read the books so at least we could play that since they only had to act as humans. That said, which books would you recommend? They must have an interesting enough setting to read through and/or be easily explained to someone who has never read anything WoD (that's why I liked to run Hunter for my friends). New Demon and Mummy seem very interesting but also something unplayable unless the players have read the books thoroughly. If you had to choose between the two, which one would you pick? I was always interested in Mage: The Ascension but so much talk here about the Awakening has piqued my interest, although I don't really like the Atlantis thing explaining every single feat of magic. Should I try and read it or just wait for M20? Also, the God Machine Chronicle looks like interesting and easy to run for people without them having to read the whole book. And although I couldn't find the original V:tR enticing enough, looks like Blood and Smoke is a decent 2nd Edition. Any thoughts? Thanks a lot!
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Jul 25, 2014 10:03
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Don't get Hunter: The Reckoning. It's got a lot of weird metaphysical stuff tying it to the rest of the cWoD, and the system is pretty dated. You want to get the World Of Darkness corebook (the one with the blue cover) and Hunter: The Vigil. That'll let you run any kind of monster murder game with minimal effort. It's designed to run everything from Supernatural to Buffy to the SCP Foundation. You don't even need to know anything about the other WoD monsters to run it. EDIT: I'd say Mage: The Awakening is a much better game than Ascension, but definitely wait for the Fallen World Chronicle to come out. Down With People fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 10:14
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Sup, dude. Between Mummy: the Curse and Demon: the Descent, Mummy is the one which is a little easier to present a short elevator pitch for someone who hasn't read the books, and is in fact kind of designed ideally for players who don't read the whole book. It's also really awkward to form a group around due to the unique gimmicks behind each mummy's death cycle, has logistical holes as to how Arisen society works, and keeps secrets not only from the players but the Storyteller as well (or at least, Storytellers who don't buy all the supplements, ka-ching). So if you want to try one of these games, Demon is the superior game. It's a difficult game to summarize, since it's a very idiosyncratic interpretation of fallen angels, but it coheres thematically and is made up of lots of different little pieces you can throw at your players to get them hooked and intrigued, like the questions of identity raised by being able to wear a Cover like a suit, the cool reality-warping powers, and the customizable biomechanical warform. The corebook has everything you really need for a Demon game (including the rules revision from the God-Machine Chronicle book), which is another way in which it compares favorably to Mummy, which intentionally withholds important setting details for later supplements. And it reads well; it has a bunch of short little vignettes that communicate what it's like to be a demon in practice, and once you get your head around what's going on in Demon, it's a very cool and relevant setting. It has reptilians! Right now, I'd advise skipping on the Awakening corebook. It is a great game, but it became so by refining itself over the course of supplements; the corebook itself has a very poor and often misleading presentation of what the game is really about. The Fallen World Chronicle, Awakening's "Blood and Smoke" equivalent, is slated for release next year, and is designed from the ground up to fix those presentation issues and incorporate the stuff the supplements refined over the years. Wait for that. The God-Machine Chronicle and Blood and Smoke are both also really solid books, though B&S's writing tone occasionally tips over from edgy into farcical. Both of them are really easy to run with just a quick summary given to your players, since vampires in B&S remain pretty archetypal and a mortals God-Machine campaign doesn't require the characters to go in understanding the mythos they're going to encounter (and, really, benefits if they don't). The God-Machine Chronicle also synergizes well with Demon, as the titular God-Machine is the thing producing the angels that occasionally fall and become demons — I tend to find the GMC book's explanation of what God-Machine infrastructure is and how it works to be more accessible than the Demon book's, though you won't be lost if you only get one book. You might also check out Hunter: the Vigil, which is a really solid and versatile game that can be immediately grasped and has a bunch of different factions which are optional but mostly pretty cool and gripping. For bonus points, it would be really easy to hack together the hunters from Reckoning into a decentralized conspiracy of hunters in Vigil; just reflavor a few Benedictions and Castigations and rename them Edges, and you can have your cake and eat it too. Demon's the best, though. 'Sgreat.
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Jul 25, 2014 10:25
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Down With People posted:Don't get Hunter: The Reckoning. It's got a lot of weird metaphysical stuff tying it to the rest of the cWoD, and the system is pretty dated. Hey, I have the core and lots of source books for Reckoning and I love it. I know my metaplot (I am very familiar with the Old World of Darkness) so I do understand most of what's going on with the supernaturals (except for Changeling and Mummy, I never looked into those). I also already own core nWoD, V:tR and W:tF. I took a look at the Vigil but the idea of secret societies doesn't attract me much, and with WoD's core book you can already play with humans, so the best thing about is that it's easy to run? I'm also eyeing Wraith (which afaik is as interesting as unplayable) and Changeling: The Lost. Just so you know, for some reason I enjoy a lot reading game books although I'm pretty sure I'll never get to play them. I tried to commit myself to reading nWoD, but with the 20th anniversary editions now I have the urge to read those too. edit: ^^^^ thanks a lot for your input! I might wait for a price drop though! Cable fucked around with this message at 10:51 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 10:29
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Whenever I think of Hunter these days, I think of Ralph Dula, who really deep-down didn't get Hunter, and wrote infuriatingly dense point-missing review after infuriatingly dense point-missing review on rpg.net back in the day of H:tR books. I think I remember Patrick O'Duffy saying that Matt McFarland wanted to strangle the guy.
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Jul 25, 2014 11:09
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I remember reading his reviews when I was getting into WoD, but I can't remember anything too bad about them (obviously, I'm not a huge Reckoning guy). What was so bad about them?
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Jul 25, 2014 11:46
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For one thing, he whined when the Player's Guide - which is 2001, the year I'm up to, so I might do it tonight and give my own perspective - had a section on detailing and playing bystanders because 'werewolf didn't do that for kinfolk! Vampire didn't do that for ghouls!' That is literally his reasoning. 'waaaaah they didn't do it this way for other lines!' Now, to be fair, he has a small point: Ghouls and kinfolk got their own books. Ghouls and kinfolk are also much more complex than bystanders are, with a lot more range of powers and abilities and a lot more history in the setting to explore. So it's a stupid argument.
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Jul 25, 2014 12:01
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Except at least one of the Werewolf player's guides had rules for playable Fera, the Changeling player's guide had the Nunnehi, so not only is his reasoning literally "They didn't do it this way before" he's kind of wrong about them not doing it that way.
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Jul 25, 2014 12:07
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He really, really wanted Hunter to be a game about awesome dudes wrecking monsters, and whined whenever the books didn't back that up, or had a picture of somebody who reminded him of his ex. Also IIRC he compared Innocents to Jane Fonda.
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Jul 25, 2014 12:13
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Bystanders are the Imbued that heard the call and said NOPE. You don't need much beyond that sentence. Urban Legends is a neat oWoD book, and I really like Hunter's antagonist books in general. They're useful abbreviated versions of the other lines, which can be really handy for when you want Garou to show up in your Masquerade game but don't want to bring a second game's worth of complexity in.
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Jul 25, 2014 12:23
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Pope Guilty posted:He really, really wanted Hunter to be a game about awesome dudes wrecking monsters, and whined whenever the books didn't back that up, or had a picture of somebody who reminded him of his ex. Also IIRC he compared Innocents to Jane Fonda. Please tell me this doesn't involve her Vietnam trip.
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Jul 25, 2014 13:00
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Kavak posted:Please tell me this doesn't involve her Vietnam trip. "If Hanoi Jane was a Hunter, she'd be an Innocent. This book let you know exactly which Creed is the weak link in the chain that is Hunters standing against the supernatural." 1 star review. He also goes to a weird place about Oracle171 working for demons and Crusader17 working for angels (and being flawless), which, spoiler alert, isn't really how it is at all and is him projecting some weird loving readings. While it's true that there's some stuff about demons involved and Oracle's got a misleading patron, it's a pretty big leap to go 'she's working for demons!', especially when there's no evidence for it other than she got some hunters killed (gee, that's not a common thing in this setting at all! ...wait...) and can do some crazy poo poo. So can Fyodor, but he's not accused of being a demon-proxy. It's also a bit of a leap to translate the 'Ministers' into straight up conventional angels given that they're a tie-in with Exalted and with the cosmology of the Kindred of the East. In fairness again, this kind of thing requires you to know the setting well to pick up on, but it does make it a pretty bizarre thing to put in a review. Loomer fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 13:06
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Loomer posted:"If Hanoi Jane was a Hunter, she'd be an Innocent. This book let you know exactly which Creed is the weak link in the chain that is Hunters standing against the supernatural." Well at least I can confirm he's a shithead. Who is this guy anyway, and why were his reviews notable?
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Jul 25, 2014 13:10
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Kavak posted:Well at least I can confirm he's a shithead. Who is this guy anyway, and why were his reviews notable? Kavak posted:he's a shithead.
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Jul 25, 2014 13:14
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moths posted:I really like Hunter's antagonist books in general. I'd even say that "The Walking Dead" is necessary to run a game of Reckoning, given that wraiths are the most common enemies for hunters and how should the ST portray them. Pope Guilty posted:He really, really wanted Hunter to be a game about awesome dudes wrecking monsters, and whined whenever the books didn't back that up. Then that's the stupidest position, since where Reckoning really shined was when its theme was desperation and hopelessness (that's how I ran my H:tR games anyways). A PC saw something weird and wants to report it to the police? That night a couple vampires will show at his place to kill him. (Luckily for him, he wasn't at home that night so the vampires only killed his family and pinned the murder on him). I always made my players see that there was 0 margin for messing up at the very beginning, so from that moment on they had to be total paranoid and overthink and discuss every movement for days. Cable fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 13:19
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Kavak posted:Well at least I can confirm he's a shithead. Who is this guy anyway, and why were his reviews notable? He's a douchebag who's notable only for having helped write the Angel RPG, some stuff for Supernatural's RPG (his particular adventure was very big on combat, low on the rest. Which is fine for Supernatural and fits with the show, but is also somewhat revealing as to his attitudes towards how you hunt monsters), and a little Call of Cthulhu stuff.
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Jul 25, 2014 13:25
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I bet he was in for a rude awakening if he read the Time of Judgement stuff for Hunter. OWoD cosmology was, still is I guess with all the 20th anniversary stuff, super convoluted. This was made even worse when someone decided that everything had to tie into Exalted. According to stuff in Time of Judgement, Hunters are reincarnated Solars from Exalted. This is not set in stone, like most the stuff in that book, but it seems like what they were going for in all the other material. The Ministers are the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Lady, or Empress, and are possibly the last two angels on Earth. These are also the guys venerated by the Kuei-jin and represent yin and yang. 
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Jul 25, 2014 15:03
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