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I don't think France or Germany or East Germany or CSSR needs a coalition anymore. I'm not sure about where Poland is right now, since they no longer seem good at anything in relation to the other decks. If you were to take NSWP I could see you maybe taking Nevas and the Su-7KBL from Poland. And that's it. The era of Polish air assault supremacy has been over for a long time and they didn't really get anything that stands out in the DLC. I may go back to playing them as spam.
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Jul 25, 2014 08:16
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I also agree with Mukip. I believe that many of us, myself included, have indulged in a certain form of intellectual laziness when it comes to building our decks. I know that I myself kept using my same old USMC and North Korean rush decks, even in the face of mounting defeats to tryhards. We simply need to focus on building decks that take advantage of the current meta, or at least focus specifically on countering the kinds of decks we might face that are based on the current meta. Right now, this means mixed NATO. It will likely continue to mean mixed NATO. Yes, I know about the nerfs to cheap tanks and activation points. I do not believe they will matter. Truly good players will still get all of the cheap infantry support chaff tanks and shock troops they need, and who cares if they have to forgo a card of jets and their wall of chieftans can't move and shoot? They also will continue to enjoy the games best "high-low mix," with waves of chaff tanks and cheap ATGM infantry backed up by wondrous 180 point sueprtanks and apaches. And they will still probably sit on stacked lobbies with their ready made decks selected, and the map set to that one desert valley map with the hotly contested side city between two very indefensible points. I have come to hate that map, and all that it stands for. Oh, and as an aside, I think that Eugen massively overbuffed PACT. Its still too early to tell, but I think that giving NSWP decks access to best in class weapons in every category *and* universal napalm/HEAT rocket artillery access was a major blunder. But, as another poster already said, one step forwards, two steps back.
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Jul 25, 2014 08:17
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I think low availability is really going to hurt that EU deck. All it takes is one intercepted transport or one unlucky artillery hit and you lose a significant proportion of your fallschirmjager, and you really have nothing else to replace them. Plus I'd take some supply helis instead of one card of trucks, and more planes wouldn't hurt.
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Jul 25, 2014 08:19
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I'm not incredibly surprised that NSWP is overpowered now. They got excited about the DLC, they went a little wild with new good units. I expect nerfs to come in a patch. I really hope they tone down the napalm/cluster rockets, there's just too much of that going around now. Maybe give one nation (Poland?) one card of napalm rockets and have that be it. And if DDR keeps its cluster rockets they should lose the MSTA. I still can't get over that the DDR Tor goes back to having 150km/h road speed, though. How did they gently caress that up?
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Jul 25, 2014 08:28
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Some of the cheap chaff got nerfed in addition to the AP reduction so we'll see how that turns out. As Argle said, it's the opening that kills us; if we only manage to keep our poo poo together for the first five minutes then it doesn't really matter after that if we aren't playing the most optimized decks. At leats half of the national decks are perfectly viable but the deck has to be built to play the game as it is.
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Jul 25, 2014 08:28
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Once a unit is made for wargame, it is never removed no matter what. So the DDR is keeping it's new toys until As to the balance, we really do need more than one day before we can start making judgements.
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Jul 25, 2014 08:59
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I forgot to say that we've been talking about how the opener is goons' biggest weak spot since ALB. We have. And we haven't really even started talking about what we should do in the thread, let alone doing it.
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Jul 25, 2014 09:00
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Mukip posted:Some of the cheap chaff got nerfed in addition to the AP reduction so we'll see how that turns out. As Argle said, it's the opening that kills us; if we only manage to keep our poo poo together for the first five minutes then it doesn't really matter after that if we aren't playing the most optimized decks. At leats half of the national decks are perfectly viable but the deck has to be built to play the game as it is. Largely true, but sometimes it is still very important to have a good deck and good play throughout the game. That last game with Donglord and Drinksalot seemed like it was starting to go our way, at least until their Soviet boondoggle decks ran out of steam. Oh, and I don't think the price and stat nerfs to chaff are entirely meaningful. A lot of the light vehicles (RR's, IKV-91's, milan/tow jeeps) remained unchanged, and the reason you take chieftans/centurions is because they take just as many missiles to kill as a tank that costs twice their cost, and sling HE3 at infatry in buildings just as well. Oh, and I think we need to start working on what we consider to constitute effective map control. Unfortunately, an exceptional optics recon chopper and one Soviet supertank watching half a sector no longer constitutes "map control." As so recently evidenced by our opponents, a carpet of cheap tanks, assualt guns, ATGMs, IRAA and wide ranging special forces constitutes map control.
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Jul 25, 2014 09:03
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Oh apparently ASF now fly higher than other planes which means they're non-targetable by manpads. For some reason the patch notes don't mention this at all.
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Jul 25, 2014 10:41
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TsarZiedonis posted:Oh, and as an aside, I think that Eugen massively overbuffed PACT. Its still too early to tell, but I think that giving NSWP decks access to best in class weapons in every category *and* universal napalm/HEAT rocket artillery access was a major blunder. But, as another poster already said, one step forwards, two steps back. I honestly don't think NSWP is hugely overpowered aside from massive access to napalm artillery. The AGS-17 infantry is a bit over the top, but I do still think the USSR has some significant advantages, particularly now that it has a reasonable AA chopper. Basically, NSWP got some actual high-end tanks, better AA, handier infantry, and a hugely increased access to flame stuff.
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Jul 25, 2014 11:53
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gently caress trophy 2k14 posted:Oh apparently ASF now fly higher than other planes which means they're non-targetable by manpads. For some reason the patch notes don't mention this at all. Testing this multiple times and it does not appear to be true at all. Where'd you get this idea?
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Jul 25, 2014 13:10
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People were talking on the forums about how interceptor and SEAD plane are now immune to manpad. I haven't test it yet, but that's what I heard.
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Jul 25, 2014 13:36
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It's definitely not the case.
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Jul 25, 2014 13:47
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People on the forums apparently have Eugen's attitude towards testing.
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Jul 25, 2014 14:17
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You could work the height differences quite a bit. It is one way to make radar AA more useful (make it the only type that can target high flying planes) and differentiate cluster & napalm bombers (drops from high alt, relatively invulnerable but inaccurate) from iron bombers and ASM planes (low alt, vulnerable but accurate). Maybe Uralgraznomod could try this out?
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Jul 25, 2014 14:30
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pedro0930 posted:People were talking on the forums about how interceptor and SEAD plane are now immune to manpad. I haven't test it yet, but that's what I heard. People are dumb, this would require another set of code to make work, and Eugen has shown for 3 games now that major poo poo like that is out of the question unless it's a new title. I've never seen any evidence of a Z axis in ranging, as AA can chase planes forever in the vertical evac climb. ----- The thing about good decks and tryharding is that if you plan on going into a premade game they are going to have an idea of where to go and what to do. This isn't a big deal though, because it's not hard to beat that idea so long as you actually think things through. It comes down to stuff like timing and coordination. Dude might have your units beat but if you drop smoke at the right time or position units correctly to be attacking from several spots at once, you can turn fights pretty regularly. This is one of the major things goons can improve on to beat most teams; thinking outside the box on poo poo. at the same time, if your deck is poo poo at attacking helos or pushing on the ground, chances are sooner or later that will cost you a game, especially against people who can identify that stuff. This is the problem with gimmicks that aren't exceptional,they are super one dimensional. Getting full value out of what's available is also really important; a good example is what Kip said, rocket helos. Rockets feel super undervalued by most people, disregarding them as transports without understanding the morale and stun damage rockets bring, especially since pact helos can bring so many. You really cannot understate the value of good timing, but in the long run this all comes back to the opener. Conquests major flaw is that income is unchanging for the duration, if you can win the opener in either a points or positioning advantage, you can spend at the same rate for the rest of the game. All you have to do is counter the possible threats coming your way. This, in most cases, is really loving easy with some practice. Therefore, winning the opener is like 80% of the battle. You have to do it right. Now poo poo happens from time to time, but every time you lose one you need to sit back and figure out why, and work it into your next one. When it doubt, watch replays, especially from the side perspective to see true LoS. That full vision view just makes you second guess yourself on poo poo you didn't actually know at the time. Mazz fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 14:42
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TsarZiedonis posted:Largely true, but sometimes it is still very important to have a good deck and good play throughout the game. That last game with Donglord and Drinksalot seemed like it was starting to go our way, at least until their Soviet boondoggle decks ran out of steam. Which game are you talking about? Last game I played with Mukip was with Donglord and Heer98, and our "boondoggle" decks never ran out of steam in fact if the game was any longer we're would have steam rolled through their cheap lovely tanks. I agree with Mukip that we need to adjust our perception to the game, but I don't agree that we have to alter our decks to be competitive. You just have to find their weak spot.
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Jul 25, 2014 15:43
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What does REDFOR have really? We were trying to work it out tonight after getting stomped by a bunch of tryhards and were kinda coming up blank.
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Jul 25, 2014 15:44
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One other thing I see goons do too often is get tunnel vision and don't put CVs in zones. Everyone needs to call that poo poo out and correct it because being -1 or -2 due to this has cost us more goon games then anything else without question. Xerxes17 posted:What does REDFOR have really? We were trying to work it out tonight after getting stomped by a bunch of tryhards and were kinda coming up blank. What exactly was the issue? Between USSR, NSWP and RD, a PACT team doesn't really lack anything. Mazz fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 15:48
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Xerxes17 posted:What does REDFOR have really? We were trying to work it out tonight after getting stomped by a bunch of tryhards and were kinda coming up blank. My American tanks and TOW 2 Bradleys got buttrocked by some DDR and USSR T-72 variants with the ATGMs and Tunguskas to keep Apaches away. And some Buks. By the end of the game I was trying to figure out how to even approach close enough to fire missiles at them much less tank duel.
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Jul 25, 2014 15:53
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Hob_Gadling posted:You could work the height differences quite a bit. It is one way to make radar AA more useful (make it the only type that can target high flying planes) and differentiate cluster & napalm bombers (drops from high alt, relatively invulnerable but inaccurate) from iron bombers and ASM planes (low alt, vulnerable but accurate). Maybe Uralgraznomod could try this out? One thing I'd come up with (inspired from playing a bunch of Phantom Leader Deluxe) was changing the "Heliocopter/Air" ranges for weapons to "Low/High Altitude" ranges, and modifying the targeting for aircraft: - Fighters would live exclusively at high altitude; Susceptible to SAMs, but with limited vulnerability to SPAAGs unless they flew directly over them - Helicopters would live at "low" altitude (plus their own NoE behavior affecting line-of-sight around hills and forests) - Bombers and ATGM planes would have a mixed behavior -- they'd exist at "High" altitude, but would transition to "Low" altitude during bombing runs - (Optional) Some weapons might attack from high altitude (things like LGBs or ASMs)
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Jul 25, 2014 15:59
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SirDrinksAlot posted:
Yeah, this. Also, I definitely agree that it's about coordinating the openers more, because that's where we end up losing the game. Goons are universally pretty decent for the rest of the game, but we lose games typically from losing the opener and the resource cascade that develops from that. Xerxes17 posted:What does REDFOR have really? We were trying to work it out tonight after getting stomped by a bunch of tryhards and were kinda coming up blank. Z-9 TYs have to be the most annoying thing. MSTAs too. Hubis posted:One thing I'd come up with (inspired from playing a bunch of Phantom Leader Deluxe) was changing the "Heliocopter/Air" ranges for weapons to "Low/High Altitude" ranges, and modifying the targeting for aircraft: It'd be easier to make plane height a toggle (one that is set by default the way you describe it above). That way, you could try and slip planes past an enemy air defense using altitude to penetrate areas defended only by SPAAGs and make some backfield attacks. Would be better for multirole planes that way. If we're being remotely realistic though, the "high" altitude should also exclude MANPADs. Make it targetable by all radar SAMs(obviously) and I guess also by vehicle IR SAMs (so long as they are firing a long range missile and not an Igla/Strela/Stinger). I guess that would be handled by giving a trait to the missile itself like [Alt] for "High Altitude capable" or something like that.
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Jul 25, 2014 16:56
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Leif. posted:It'd be easier to make plane height a toggle (one that is set by default the way you describe it above). Can't mod a new button to UI, but otherwise it's completely doable. This might also be a way to make artillery worse at hitting pinpoint targets but better at massing fire once or twice per game while still having tools to wipe out individual units. Dunno, hopefully someone thinks it through. 
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Jul 25, 2014 17:35
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I'd rather have what Hubis posted and have a plane's altitude defined by mission role. Everything planes do happens in seconds and adding more micro to them is a no go in my mind.
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Jul 25, 2014 17:43
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SirDrinksAlot posted:Which game are you talking about? Yeah, I know. I'm Heer98. And the issue with NATO is that they synergize so well. For example, in the game I just played against tryhards with Xerxes on Bloody Ridge, the all important left city was hit by a W German mech and Eurocorps player that had, between them, the ability to kill in the best, cheapest shock infatry in the best, cheapest IFV's, 10+ napalm planes, 3 high end SEAD planes, the best cheap tanks, the best medium tanks, the best heavy tanks... Admittedly, these players also play very well, but there's a reason they all choose to play NATO.
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Jul 25, 2014 18:01
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TsarZiedonis posted:Yeah, I know. I'm Heer98. I don't see that as a NATO problem so much as a Eurocorps and to an extent, CW problem. Those coalitions are over the top. CW has the problem that any 2 of the 3 together would be good, but it's the third that messes it up. Also, if you guys think you can actually get that height condition thing to work, then hell yeah, do it. It would be pretty interesting and pubbies will jump all over that on the forums. Mazz fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 18:19
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3 dimensional flight is definitely a thing, I have many times had a fighter avoid AA by climbing when chasing down an evacuating plane. It's yet another reason that panicking and hitting the evac button is among the worst things you can do in plane micro. Why yes, I will shoot down your plane well above MANPAD range thank you.
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Jul 25, 2014 18:38
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Hob_Gadling posted:Can't mod a new button to UI, but otherwise it's completely doable. This might also be a way to make artillery worse at hitting pinpoint targets but better at massing fire once or twice per game while still having tools to wipe out individual units. Dunno, hopefully someone thinks it through. Isn't the altitude button from helicopters still there, or would it be not moddable? ^ Arglebargle, it's only visual though. It doesn't actually avoid anything when climbing like that, except to the extent that the plane's flight path may no longer bring it across enemy lines if that's wwhat you mean. It could climb into orbit, but if it's within horizontal range, it's still going to get shot at. Leif. fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jul 25, 2014 |
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Jul 25, 2014 18:42
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I find plane/AA ranges hard to visually estimate in gameplay when planes start maneuvering, which might be why it's so confusing.
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Jul 25, 2014 18:50
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Leif. posted:Isn't the altitude button from helicopters still there, or would it be not moddable? Yeah, I'm pretty positive only the horizontal is taken into account. You can see this for sure in the F-117, it flies physically higher then most other planes, but takes fire at the exact same distances. Also, you can watch a Tor or Roland 2 take a shot at something that should be out of range given its climb.
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Jul 25, 2014 18:50
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Leif. posted:Isn't the altitude button from helicopters still there, or would it be not moddable? The buttons (as far as I know, someone prove me wrong!) are tied to units MouvementHandler module type. Changing the reference would make planes fly like helicopters. Of course this isn't certain, so if someone figures a way... quote:It could climb into orbit, but if it's within horizontal range, it's still going to get shot at. This is not true. There is a true Z-axis in the game engine. I just tested it, and planes can fly unmolested directly above AA if they fly high enough. When you make a strafing run (via target pos) they get shot once they drop altitude.
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Jul 25, 2014 19:04
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I trust hob more than i'd trust myself about anything detail wise like that, but I think it's more complex than just whether there is a Z axis or not, because it's especially noticeable when an F117 or a Harrier (or IL, or anything sufficiently slow) evacs directly over a MANPADS. The MANPADS will often get an additional shot that hits the plane so high up that it's not even visible unless the camera is sufficiently tilted. Or it may be just that altitude affects whether a plane can be targeted, but once aiming starts it continues even if the plane evacs out of "vertical" range.
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Jul 25, 2014 19:49
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Hey I wrote the plane micro guide! I distinctly remember one episode in which a Rafale killed some plane waaay above the enemy side of Foxtrot in Gunboat Diplomacy and it didn't get shot at despite there being MANPADS down there for sure. I didn't realize how far forward it was because it was so high up the viewing angle was screwy and when it came back down it got swarmed by MANPADS and died. I probably have the replay too but I have no idea which it was. Seriously it had to be a couple kilometers in the air at least, I think some retarded poo poo happened like an enemy fighter chased one of my evacing planes up and then evaced when the Rafale came at him so they both ended up way above where the first plane disappeared.Leif. posted:Or it may be just that altitude affects whether a plane can be targeted, but once aiming starts it continues even if the plane evacs out of "vertical" range. I think it's that once the missiles release range no longer matters. I've seen MANPADS start and stop their aim cycle when a plane just grazes their range, but once the missile is away it will go as long as needed. Wargame missiles have infinite fuel anyway since they obviously never stop boosting. (Okay I know it's just to make them more visible.) I actually like the top tier fighter availability change. I've seen more mid-tier fighters in one day than in the last month. And with the older jets on the field again if you're willing to spend 7 or 9 activation points on a pair of hot poo poo Rafales or Su-27PUs you can be king of the skies again... unless you fly over a Skrezhet. AA guns are a little ridiculous right now. Oh and the ZSU-27-2 and other low rate of fire AAA are bugged to have the bullet hose effect. I wonder if it has any impact on their performance.
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Jul 25, 2014 20:10
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I definitely remember chasing evacing planes far far above enemy air defense networks and not being shot at until it descended to "normal" altitude. I am pretty sure that as long as a missile system CAN target a plane and gets a missile off, the missile will continue to track and hit even if the plane flies well outside of range (vertically speaking), but if the plane is outside of range in the first place, it won't be targeted. I could be wrong, but these are my observations. All autocannons are bugged graphically, I saw one of those lovely 30mm Czech VSOTs or whatever they were transports that had the same graphic effect as a PIVADs, which was a bit frightening.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:51
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Justin Tyme posted:All autocannons are bugged graphically, I saw one of those lovely 30mm Czech VSOTs or whatever they were transports that had the same graphic effect as a PIVADs, which was a bit frightening. Don't think that's a bug. I figured autocannons now just shoot through their 'clip' a lot faster and have to reload more often.
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Jul 25, 2014 22:56
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There's also a rumor the ERYX crash is back.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:35
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Chantilly Say posted:Don't think that's a bug. I figured autocannons now just shoot through their 'clip' a lot faster and have to reload more often. The graphics are definitely hosed up, they're supposed to fire in 4-6 rounds bursts but the graphic looks like they fire tens to hundreds of rounds and the impact sound they made sounds like PIVADS impacts.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:39
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Panzeh posted:I honestly don't think NSWP is hugely overpowered aside from massive access to napalm artillery. The AGS-17 infantry is a bit over the top, but I do still think the USSR has some significant advantages, particularly now that it has a reasonable AA chopper. Basically, NSWP got some actual high-end tanks, better AA, handier infantry, and a hugely increased access to flame stuff. NSWP feels weird to me. They have a lot of really potent capabilities, but working with their infantry their top end felt real shallow. Vampyrs are nice, but they only come on LStR. Once you lose them, that's it, now they're taking a severe hit in range or AP from the replacement infantry. Vampyrs are a special capability for NSWP to be husbanded and used carefully because they aren't prevalent and they're expensive. Meanwhile Germany can lay down four cards of infantry with PzF 3s, and three of those are 20 point shock infantry that can probably shoot roughly even with Mot-Schuetzen 90 despite the awesome LAW. The bulk 7VR is pretty fantastic, but the range and accuracy leave something to be desired. It kinda feels like they don't have the overlap between cheap and effective units and the critical units that you can lean on for a game like Eurocorps does. I'm not 100% sure yet though. The Pram assault guns are dreamboats though.
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Jul 25, 2014 23:48
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gently caress trophy 2k14 posted:There's also a rumor the ERYX crash is back. What's the Eryx crash?
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Jul 26, 2014 00:16
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Chantilly Say posted:What's the Eryx crash? Canadian Eryx FIST teams have a HE value and can hence use the FirePos command. Telling them to fire at their own feet used to crash the entire game server.
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Jul 26, 2014 01:00
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