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The Bee posted:No you see if he was around and overcentralizing in previous generations it's perfectly okay. See also: the Smogon Washing Machine, Scizor, etc. etc. To be fair, I'm all in favor of giving the average smogon player an excessively generous impression of how amazing and useful a washing machine is. God, these people are pussies though. I'm so glad I bailed on showdown for cartridge play.
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Jul 26, 2014 16:24
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Ignite Memories posted:God, these people are pussies though. I'm so glad I bailed on showdown for cartridge play. Honestly, Showdown having the Smogon rules baked in and being increasingly laggy has just made me want to use it less and less. Maybe goons should make their own simulator and metamage catalogue. Something Awful Pokemon Evaluations Ratings & Game Simulation?
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Jul 26, 2014 16:27
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I think my favorite trend on Smogon right now is that if a pokemon has multiple viable sets then they are definitely running all of these sets simultaneously thus the pokemon has no counters because it might be running the other set! At the same time altering a pokemon's normal moveset by doing something like using Earthquake instead of Close Combat to hit Aegislash is bad because you're being forced to use "unviable" moves.
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Jul 26, 2014 16:34
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Someone should just roll up a team of 6 Koffing all named SMOGON that have Selfdestruct as their only move.  "SMOGON used Selfdestruct." "SMOGON used Selfdestruct." "SMOGON used Selfdestruct." "SMOGON used Selfdestruct." "SMOGON used Selfdestruct." "SMOGON used Selfdestruct."
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Jul 26, 2014 16:38
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dude789 posted:"uncompetitive 50/50 guess" This is easily the worst part of the suspect test for me. The statement that the 50/50 of king's shield is so badly different than every other 50/50 guess in competitive Pokemon.
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Jul 26, 2014 16:42
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PokeBattle is a good alternative simulator. It's a lot less laggy than Showdown, at least it was last time I played. It has a weird funky teambuilding system that is hard to get used to, but is interesting and cool. edit: basically you're allowed to use cool stuff like darkrai as long as you use weaker stuff like golbat. except golbat is awesome so its not even a problem
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Jul 26, 2014 16:49
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Is gyrados not the most badass pokemon in the loving world? What do I have to get for this motherfucker to mega evolve? I don't think I've used another pokemon in like ten battles and I don't think he's taken a hit in those ten too. this nigga
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Jul 26, 2014 16:51
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Bob A Feet posted:Is gyrados not the most badass pokemon in the loving world? What do I have to get for this motherfucker to mega evolve? I don't think I've used another pokemon in like ten battles and I don't think he's taken a hit in those ten too. this nigga Unfortunately you dont get the mega stone for Gyarados until after you beat the elite 4. Also smogon is loving retarded and I can't find a suitable meme image or video to reflect my feelings
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Jul 26, 2014 16:54
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dude789 posted:This seems to be the core issue. I guess now that Showdown has gained popularity with the most recent generation, the playerbase has expanded to include a bunch more people who hate having to make predictions and especially hate getting predicted themselves. That's the main reason Aegislash is up for banning because there's so many people who think playing around King's Shield is an "uncompetitive 50/50 guess" Haha, seriously? I didn't bother reading it so I figured they were just upset about how many different sets Aegislash runs, like you were talking about in your other post. Now I wonder how long until Sucker Punch gets the boot  I remember reading a ton of essays from Dave Sirlin (internet fighting game guru) about how "50/50" situations were essentially the pinnacle of head to head tactics, and how high level competitive play should aspire to basically always be in that kind of guessing situation. Because otherwise you're just memorizing a predetermined set of steps to win. Actually, that explains a lot about the Smogon mindset.
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Jul 26, 2014 16:56
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less laughter posted:http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-xy-ubers-gengarite-suspect-test-in-the-shadows.3513127/ God drat I'm reading this poo poo right now and he calls the Uber metagame "uncompetitive"   I thought I was done being surprised by the dumb decisions smogon was considering after they basically banned baton pass but man, banning anything from ubers is just a new level stupid in the smuggest yet dorkiest voice possible posted:switching is the core function of competitive play and derives perceived skill. you cannot simply "play around it". you're trapped. read my OP for logs of spl, the highest form of ubers play, in which shadow tag made a huge difference and not even the best players could "play around" it.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:08
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dude789 posted:I think my favorite trend on Smogon right now is that if a pokemon has multiple viable sets then they are definitely running all of these sets simultaneously thus the pokemon has no counters because it might be running the other set! At the same time altering a pokemon's normal moveset by doing something like using Earthquake instead of Close Combat to hit Aegislash is bad because you're being forced to use "unviable" moves. The problem is that they don't want to have different counters for different sets and they don't want to guess or figure out what set the opponent is running, they just want to see an Aegislash and know they can send out one thing that can counter Aegislash for sure in 100% of cases regardless of what set it's running.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:10
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I think it would be pretty good to come up with our own simulator ruleset.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:17
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Bongo Bill posted:I think it would be pretty good to come up with our own simulator ruleset. Rule 1: Have fun Rule 2: HAVE FUN OR DIE. Rule 3: There are no other rules
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Jul 26, 2014 17:21
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Main Paineframe posted:The problem is that they don't want to have different counters for different sets and they don't want to guess or figure out what set the opponent is running, they just want to see an Aegislash and know they can send out one thing that can counter Aegislash for sure in 100% of cases regardless of what set it's running. This logic was barely justifiable for banning Mega Lucario because there were so few counters once he got set up and if you didn't guess physical or special correctly it was usually over. Aegislash is nowhere near that level--the only game-ending threat is the Swords Dance set, which is 1) obvious and 2) relatively easy to counter. Special attacking and stall sets are nasty and can sweep unprepared teams but are not unduly difficult to work around even if you get blindsided.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:23
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less laughter posted:Aegislash is likely getting banned to Ubers soon as well.  http://www.deviantart.com/art/No-Aegislash-Allowed-470652439
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Jul 26, 2014 17:25
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Pyroi posted:Rule 1: Have fun Picturing squads of goons going to people's houses and enforcing the 2nd rule with extreme prejudice.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:26
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Pyroi posted:Rule 1: Have fun Battling Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Gengar etc. isn't fun, though. They're just automatic win buttons against most other Pokémon. Smogon may go a bit overboard sometimes but 80% of their bans are still sensible and beneficial. Ignoring Smogon's rules completely is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:27
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I'd be all in favor of a new ruleset. I used to use Smogon's rules for gen IV and V tournaments at my school, but the trend of throwing up just about anything for a ban test is getting out of hand. If we had our own rules, I know we'd have different tiers for different Pokemon, but I think we'd at least give time for the metagame to settle before throwing something else up for a change in tier.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:29
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less laughter posted:Battling Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Gengar etc. isn't fun, though. They're just automatic win buttons against most other Pokémon. Smogon may go a bit overboard sometimes but 80% of their bans are still sensible and beneficial. Ignoring Smogon's rules completely is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. HAVE FUN, OR DIE.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:36
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Personally, I don't think the purpose of playing 6v6 singles Pokemon on simulators is to create your own ruleset and balance in a game that is absurdly unbalanced. The fact of the matter is it is nearly impossible to do 6v6 with random people in the actual game, let alone actually make your team with perfect IVs and such, and simulators fill a void for that. The purpose of a simulator, at least one that I would want to play, would be one that would replicate the options available to you on the actual game when playing against others. I don't care that it's "unbalanced" and some people don't think certain things are fun. Whatever. Evasion moves, OHKO moves, swagger and baton pass, all should be allowed. I don't care if they're "unfair" or whatever, I don't like the idea of creating a "balanced" game out of the already existing game at the cost of just getting rid of the poo poo you don't like.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:36
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Isn't one of the big problems with mega kanga sucker punch flinching? Sleep talking ignores that crap (sucker punch must pick up an attack to activate if memory serves, sleep talk doesn't trigger). It's a 2/3 chance to hit (may use rest instead of the other attack moves) but it keeps them on their toes.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:44
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mabels big day posted:Personally, I don't think the purpose of playing 6v6 singles Pokemon on simulators is to create your own ruleset and balance in a game that is absurdly unbalanced. The fact of the matter is it is nearly impossible to do 6v6 with random people in the actual game, let alone actually make your team with perfect IVs and such, and simulators fill a void for that. The purpose of a simulator, at least one that I would want to play, would be one that would replicate the options available to you on the actual game when playing against others. I don't care that it's "unbalanced" and some people don't think certain things are fun. Whatever. Evasion moves aren't unfair though, they're just unfun. for evidence GU6G-WWWW-WWW3-T8H7
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Jul 26, 2014 17:45
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Smogon's primary problem is that decisions are made by their top players, meaning that all decisions are designed to keep their 'premier' players on top and force new players to play exactly like their 'pros'. The only way to use Smogon is to look up Pokémon analyses, say 'Oh, that's a neat move spread', and then immediately close the page.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:48
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PSWII60 posted:Evasion moves aren't unfair though, they're just unfun. I don't really care if it's unfun to some people either. It's fun for at least one guy, at least. I want to see what the real "vanilla" Pokemon metagame would look like, not the fake smogon ones that arise from trying to make their own balanced game out of the real one.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:50
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Pyroi posted:HAVE FUN, OR DIE. But every battle being decided by one of three or so Megas isn't fun?  Smogon have gone into a pretty stupid place right now but I'm glad every match isn't just a contest between Arceus, Mewtwo and [your most hated Mega] too.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:51
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This is why doubles is the only format you should ever care about. 
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Jul 26, 2014 17:55
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mabels big day posted:I want to see what the real "vanilla" Pokemon metagame would look like, You'd never get to use your favorite Pokemon because they'd get rolled over by Mega Mewtwo and Arceus.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:55
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mabels big day posted:I don't really care if it's unfun to some people either. It's fun for at least one guy, at least. Pure conjecture, but I would guess: - Dark Void user - Mega Kanga/Gengar/Lucario - Moody Evasion sweeper - High BST/legendary (maybe evasion) @ Brightpowder? - Wall with sleep/evasion/some other annoying variant support (paraflinch maybe?) - Whatever else from one of the above Sounds like fun!
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Jul 26, 2014 17:55
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LAY-ZX posted:You'd never get to use your favorite Pokemon because they'd get rolled over by Mega Mewtwo and Arceus. I should reiterate, there should still be usage tiers (OU, UU, etc) and an Ubers, strictly for box art and event legendaries, like Mewtwo and Arceus. Usage tiers are a good idea and a good way of making something for everyone. I just dislike smogon banning stuff (non-legendaries) from their usage tiers, and especially banning strategies.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:02
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PKMN Trainer Red posted:Smogon's primary problem is that decisions are made by their top players, meaning that all decisions are designed to keep their 'premier' players on top and force new players to play exactly like their 'pros'. Down with the Pokéarchy!
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Jul 26, 2014 18:04
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Immer posted:Pure conjecture, but I would guess: Ah yes, the moody evasion sweeper, Bibarel.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:04
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At the very least, a whole lot of moves and abilities that are functionally useless at the moment competitively would be given life again under a vanilla metagame. People bitch about accuracy and sleep, but we have how many moves and abilities to reset, ignore or work around accuracy, and at the very least a berry and an ability centered around dealing with sleep.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:05
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All this whining about Mega Gengar makes me want to make Gengar my Mega instead of Blaziken. I'd been considering it for awhile, and I was also thinking I had to re-breed my Gengar anyway. The one on my team I've been using since Emerald, but she's Modest, not Timid. Sometimes she gets outsped by things that I really didn't want her to get outsped by...
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Jul 26, 2014 18:06
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mabels big day posted:Ah yes, the moody evasion sweeper, Bibarel. Sorry I didn't correctly predict this hypothetical meta on my first attempt.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:06
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mabels big day posted:I should reiterate, there should still be usage tiers (OU, UU, etc) and an Ubers, strictly for box art and event legendaries, like Mewtwo and Arceus. Even then every OU game would be decided by Mega Kanga/Lucario/Gengar because they are just insanely effective in singles. The environment you want can mostly still be found in the Doubles Meta, even at Smogon.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:09
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Crawfish posted:At the very least, a whole lot of moves and abilities that are functionally useless at the moment competitively would be given life again under a vanilla metagame. Minimize and Double Team are allowed in Ubers. The only things currently banned from Ubers are Moody, Swagger, and the four OHKO attacks.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:11
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Main Paineframe posted:Wide Guard shits all over Dark Void too. Definitely an underused move for how good it can be. And of course there's Taunt, though the Smeargle's partner will often have some way to stop that since it's the most obvious thing to use against a Smeragle.  Thank you! I've been gnashing my teeth over Dark Void Smeargle for months but somehow never thought of Wide Guard. Looks like my Wide Guard/Quick Guard Mr. Mime is going to get used for something other than Earthquake and Prankster control.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:13
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mabels big day posted:Ah yes, the moody evasion sweeper, Bibarel. I don't think you fully appreciate how ludicrous Moody is. If it holds out for a few turns and gets lucky boosts, even a Bidoof will tear through any team without even trying. Moody is loving crazy.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:13
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A Steampunk Gent posted:Even then every OU game would be decided by Mega Kanga/Lucario/Gengar because they are just insanely effective in singles. The environment you want can mostly still be found in the Doubles Meta, even at Smogon. I don't want to play doubles though, I want to play singles. So they're insanely effective in singles. That's ok. I'm ok with that, but we don't know for sure. There hasn't been, at least to my knowledge, a real "vanilla" metagame on the same scope as smogon's simulators. LAY-ZX posted:I don't think you fully appreciate how ludicrous Moody is. If it holds out for a few turns and gets lucky boosts, even a Bidoof will tear through any team without even trying. Moody is loving crazy. I'm ok with that too. Plus, there's also always the option that it just gets one-shot in a turn or two and doesn't get any useful boosts at all.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:13
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Wouldn't ingame ranked be the equivalent of the vanilla metagame?
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Jul 26, 2014 18:14
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