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Oh, wow, this is exactly what I was afraid of. Wizards get to nuke everyone at high levels, and Fighters get to swing their swords SLIGHTLY HARDER! I'm just waiting for the PHB2, where they introduce Thermonuclear Blast as a Lvl 2 Spell!
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Jul 28, 2014 05:43
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Probe 17 posted:Wizards get to nuke everyone at high levels, and Fighters get to swing their swords SLIGHTLY HARDER! They also get to swing them three more times! Gosh, get your facts right! It does almost as much damage as Meteor Swarm does to one of its targets
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Jul 28, 2014 07:02
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I've got a 4e/3e heartbreaker I've been working on for a few months, half out of spite for whenever I learn more about 5e's mechanics. Maybe I'll actually throw it at the forums once it's survived a couple more playtests.
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Jul 28, 2014 14:44
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Tiny bit off topic: whats a heartbreaker? In the contexts used above.
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Jul 28, 2014 14:59
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Tiny bit off topic: whats a heartbreaker? By my understanding, "X heartbreaker" means "Game I made because I'm frustrated by X, that does what I like about X in a better way".
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Jul 28, 2014 15:00
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Tendales posted:I'd kind of like to see the old 'everyone huddle together, make a plan, fighter goes left, rogue runs deep, wizard hangs back, ready, BREAK' come back and be refined. If it's never specifically your turn, then it's also never NOT your turn and you can't just zone out. S.J. posted:Are there any recent (good) examples of alternate initiative systems like this outside of wargames? Popcorn Initiative (by Fred Hicks for Marvel Heroic Roleplaying) might be what you're after. The quick version is that whoever is acting gets to choose who acts next out of everyone who hasn't acted yet, and the final person to act in a round chooses who starts the next round. I'm also using this for my 4e Retroclone (for this month's contest) with both Warlord and Rogue getting optional abilities to steal or even (for the Warlord) pass the initiative. Because why wouldn't they? And it combines nastily with EONT abilities - if you act at the top of the round with an EONT debuff, everyone gets to take advantage of it twice. neonchameleon fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 15:01
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Class Options article.quote:Barbarian: A barbarian picks a primal path that reflects the nature of the character's rage. The two options in the Player's Handbook are the Path of the Berserker and the Path of the Totem Warrior. The berserker fights with an implacable fury, while the totem warrior channels the magic of beasts to augment his or her rage.
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Jul 28, 2014 15:13
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A little curious, was Arcane Trickster in the leaked phb? And if so, was it basically E.Knight but with different spell schools?
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Jul 28, 2014 15:15
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Huh. Okay. Paladin-Avenger option. That sounds intriguing. Any info on that?
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Jul 28, 2014 15:25
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Generic Octopus posted:A little curious, was Arcane Trickster in the leaked phb? And if so, was it basically E.Knight but with different spell schools? Right, enchantment or illusion, capping at 4th level spells (which you hit at level 19). Mendrian posted:Huh. Okay. Paladin-Avenger option. That sounds intriguing. Any info on that? You get some oath spells, channel divinity cause fear, you gain advantage on enemies who hit allies near you, you can attack your oath target when they make an attack and at level 20 you can turn into an angel for an hour gaining a 60 foot fly speed and a fear aura.
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Jul 28, 2014 15:34
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Some of these sound so cool but I just know that 5e is going to ruin the potential. I assume Eldritch Knight (  ) is a fighter who gets a few wizard spells, and not anything actually cool or interesting? I would be delighted to be wrong!
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Jul 28, 2014 15:36
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ProfessorProf posted:I assume Eldritch Knight ( Basically yes, unless they overhauled the version from a few months ago. Jack the Lad posted:Right, enchantment or illusion, capping at 4th level spells (which you hit at level 19). That's what I expected, but I'm still disappointed. Strikes me as super lazy too. Generic Octopus fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 15:43
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Yeah, you can be a fighter X/Wizard 3 without taking three levels in wizard! How cool is that, huh?! Basically, these Veteran Game Designers are so lacking in imagination, they even had to outsource 5e adventures.
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Jul 28, 2014 16:00
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Generic Octopus posted:That's what I expected, but I'm still disappointed. Strikes me as super lazy too. This pretty much sums up my thoughts on all of 5e so far. I mean, there is some randomly cool stuff - spells, mostly - but it all just rather reeks of  
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Jul 28, 2014 16:03
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Jack the Lad posted:This pretty much sums up my thoughts on all of 5e so far.  "Natural language" — why convey information practically when you can beat around the bush forever?
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Jul 28, 2014 16:06
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neonchameleon posted:Popcorn Initiative (by Fred Hicks for Marvel Heroic Roleplaying) might be what you're after. The quick version is that whoever is acting gets to choose who acts next out of everyone who hasn't acted yet, and the final person to act in a round chooses who starts the next round. I haven't played 5e's starter set yet to try out Popcorn Initiative there, but we've been using it for the second half of Heroic Tier in 4e. It's starting to look untenable for Paragon tier, since there are more player and monster powers that are "if condition is met, worse thing happens." A simple example is the level 14 Elite Umber Hulk; it has a standard action that allows it two claw attacks. With Popcorn, if it ends the round, it can choose itself to start the next round. Four claw attacks in a row would be bad enough, but if it hits with two in a row from its double-attack standard action, the target creature is then grabbed. The Umber Hulk has another standard action it can only do when a creature is grabbed, and that action is an automatic 40 HP of damage (no roll or save or means of escape, except for what would have been a round to escape the grab if you weren't using Popcorn Initiative). The Umber Hulk also has an action point, because it's an Elite. If the Umber Hulk hits at the end of a round with both of its claw attacks, it can start the next round with that 40 HP damage, and action point immediately to do it again, which (with the two claw hits) is enough to take level-appropriate PCs from full HP to negative HP. There are some things on the player side that can be just as bad, but the campaign doesn't come to a screeching halt when the party TPKs the monsters. Dragons and other multi-initiative-slot modern-design solos are even more deadly when they get to have all of their actions in a row without players between them, because (being one creature) you can only cast one daze/stun on them per round, which they will shake off with their first action. WFRP 3e/EotE "everyone rolls initiative to decide when the player slots/enemy slots are, but each side picks who goes in its own slots from round to round" is better, mitigating but not preventing the Umber Hulk PC-shredding above. Edit: so, uhh, be careful with Popcorn Initiative, I guess?
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Jul 28, 2014 16:26
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homullus posted:I haven't played 5e's starter set yet to try out Popcorn Initiative there, but we've been using it for the second half of Heroic Tier in 4e. It's starting to look untenable for Paragon tier, since there are more player and monster powers that are "if condition is met, worse thing happens." Thanks. That's worth thinking about 
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Jul 28, 2014 16:34
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The main thing with the Eldritch Knight is that it has no option to attack AND spellcast together. It's literally just a fighter/mage multiclass as one class. It's not like there aren't examples of how to do this better. Ok fine, ignore the Swordmage because Mearls hates 4e, but now you're also ignoring Paizo's magus and 3.5's duskblade and psionic warrior. I see a lot of people talking about how 5e is better then 3.x. Know what? No it isn't. Because 3.x learned in it's 8 year period. 3.x created Tome of Battle and the factotum, it gave 3.x style psionics and the warlock/dragon shaman, the beguiler and dread necromancer, the duskblade and spellthief. 5e isn't just desperately trying to forget 4e - it's trying to forget most of 3.x, too. 3e core was more unbalanced then 5e core, but 3e core was made 14 motherfucking years ago. What's 5e's excuse? 5e is a 2001 game made in 2014.
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Jul 28, 2014 16:42
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ProfessorCirno posted:The main thing with the Eldritch Knight is that it has no option to attack AND spellcast together. It sorta kinda not-really does...at level 7 you get a cantrip + 1 attack, and at 18 you get a spell + 1 attack, at least according to screencaps from the test phb. It's still a very lazy "fighter + wizard = fighterwizard" design though.
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Jul 28, 2014 16:48
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So as an eldritch warrior I can get the amazing ability to attack cast something useful just two levels before the cap, and not any time before. Lovely.
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Jul 28, 2014 16:58
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I guess you could attack, action point, cast a spell. Uh. Yeah that's a thing I guess. Best use of action points: casting spells.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:01
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ritorix posted:I guess you could attack, action point, cast a spell. Uh. Yeah that's a thing I guess. Best use of action points: casting spells. A Wizard can also take 2 levels of Fighter to be able to cast a spell, action surge, cast a spell. 
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Jul 28, 2014 17:03
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Jack the Lad posted:A Wizard can also take 2 levels of Fighter to be able to cast a spell, action surge, cast a spell. And three to get all the interesting features of the first fourteen levels of Battlemaster Being fair, the fighter fifth level ability is also nice to the point a fighter/cleric might want it.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:13
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Jack the Lad posted:A Wizard can also take 2 levels of Fighter to be able to cast a spell, action surge, cast a spell. It's not THAT hosed.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:20
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dwarf74 posted:Nope, only 1 spell (+ maybe a cantrip) per round. Hm! I thought that was the case at first but when I checked in Basic I couldn't find it and figured they removed the limitation for whatever reason. Where's it at?
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Jul 28, 2014 17:24
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drat it, I'll try to say something nice about the eldritch knight... Hmmm... They will have both full extra attack progression and cantrip damage progression. Could give then nice options for both ranged and melee. A dex/int knight would work. They can basically have protection from evil up on themselves nearly every fight and be very tanky.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:25
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The bard
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Jul 28, 2014 17:35
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Is it just me, or does the guy look badly photoshopped into the scene he's in on that first page? Look at the guitar.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:40
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ProfessorProf posted:By my understanding, "X heartbreaker" means "Game I made because I'm frustrated by X, that does what I like about X in a better way". Wealllll. The original meaning was somewhat different: Ron Edwards posted:The basic notion is that nearly all of the listed games have one great idea buried in them somewhere. It's perhaps the central point of this essay - that yes, these games are not "only" AD&D knockoffs and hodgepodges of house rules. They are indeed the products of actual play, love for the medium, and determined creativity. That's why they break my heart, because the nuggets are so buried and bemired within all the painful material I listed above... People in this forum (and elsewhere?) have since taken the term to mean something closer to how you're using it. But, as I understood it, they were also offering a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgement of the likely outcome of their labours - a mediocre D&D knockoff, made with love.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:41
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Jack the Lad posted:Hm! I thought that was the case at first but when I checked in Basic I couldn't find it and figured they removed the limitation for whatever reason. Where's it at? Hmm also. I only see it about bonus action spells (under casting times), so maybe it is that hosed!
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Jul 28, 2014 17:43
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dwarf74 posted:Hmm also. I only see it about bonus action spells (under casting times), so maybe it is that hosed! Yep, I think so 
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Jul 28, 2014 17:45
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Jack the Lad posted:Yep, I think so Why not ask @mikemearls? I hear he's quick to respond to rules questions!
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Jul 28, 2014 17:48
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what are you guys talking about? using extra attacks for additional spells?
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Jul 28, 2014 17:48
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treeboy posted:what are you guys talking about? using extra attacks for additional spells? Action Surge gives you an extra action, nothing to do with attacks. But yeah - taking 2 levels of Fighter to gain Action Surge to cast 2 spells in one round.
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Jul 28, 2014 17:55
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PleasingFungus posted:Why not ask @mikemearls? I hear he's quick to respond to rules questions! FuegoFish could bang out an "Ask Mike Mearls" random generator in 30 seconds, the only result is "Let your GM decide."
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Jul 28, 2014 17:56
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Jack the Lad posted:Action Surge gives you an extra action, nothing to do with attacks. I'm...not sure about this. The rules regarding bonus action spells specifically state you can cast no other spells on your turn other than the bonus action spell, except maybe a cantrip. The problem is Action Surge says it gives an additional action and "maybe a bonus action" Seems like they were editing language and messed it up. edit: i don't see why it would limit you from casting another spell when using a bonus action but not limit casting with two "normal" actions treeboy fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 17:59
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treeboy posted:I'm...not sure about this. The rules regarding bonus action spells specifically state you can cast no other spells on your turn other than the bonus action spell, except maybe a cantrip. The problem is Action Surge says it gives an additional action and "maybe a bonus action" Right. Action Surge doesn't give an additional action and "maybe a bonus action" - it gives an additional action on top of your regular action and possible bonus action. So I think it works. A 2 level Fighter dip seems like a nice one for Wizards with some spell progression under their belt.
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Jul 28, 2014 18:03
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Jack the Lad posted:Right. Action Surge doesn't give an additional action and "maybe a bonus action" - it gives an additional action on top of your regular action and possible bonus action. Ah i see, i misread "Possible" as "possibly" Still, i don't see why they'd limit Action + B.Action spell casting but allow Action+Action. By this rules/logic if i had Action, Action, B. Action, but used my bonus for a spell i couldn't use either action for a spell. Still, it would only be once a fight until 17th level. Not a bad dip for armor proficiency/second wind/fighting style either.
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Jul 28, 2014 18:10
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neonchameleon posted:Popcorn Initiative (by Fred Hicks for Marvel Heroic Roleplaying) might be what you're after. The quick version is that whoever is acting gets to choose who acts next out of everyone who hasn't acted yet, and the final person to act in a round chooses who starts the next round. Cool, I've got a physical copy of the MHR book I just haven't looked it over much. That's an interesting way of doing it.
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Jul 28, 2014 18:13
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There's no way that guitar isn't a bad photoshop over a sword of some kind.
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Jul 28, 2014 18:24
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