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ToxicSlurpee posted:I find the case of Dahmer more tragic than anything and feel like it was a failure of society as a whole. I agree. It's funny because I've actually seen a quote of his where he specifically says (paraphrased) "it wasn't my parent's or society's fault; the entirety of the blame rests on me", which is probably the best thing a serial killer can say along with "I regret everything I've done and if I could die to bring them all back I'd do it," which Dahmer also said.
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Jul 30, 2014 00:48
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He also met with the sister of one of his victims to apologize and to try to explain that he didn't kill her brother because he hated him, but because he found him attractive and wanted to keep him with him. I think Dahmer was probably about as sorry as someone as mentally broken as him was capable of being. Ultimately, the scariest/most unnerving thing about Dahmer is that there were aspects to him that were quite human, and it's scary to think that someone who is capable of feeling the things that "normal" people feel-- loneliness, guilt, remorse, etc-- was able to do such horrific things. I think that's a big part of why I've gotten poo poo in the past for voicing sympathy for Dahmer: it frightens people to think that Dahmer was like us in some ways, and not a completely inhuman monster. It's easier to think of the people who do these things as totally evil, aka something completely alien to the rest of us.
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Jul 30, 2014 02:18
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The father wrote a book, which was an interesting and uncomfortable read. I do think they were emotionally remote as parents and didn't take his mental health issues or alcoholism seriously, but he (the elder Dahmer) was pretty candid about just not understanding his son at all. There was a UK mass murderer around the same time as Dahmer with very similar MO and motives called Dennis Nilsen; I read a book about him called Killing for Company, which was fascinating and chilling.
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Jul 30, 2014 02:27
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I read both of the books you mentioned. I absolutely recommend Killing For Company to anyone who is interested in forensic psychology, it's definitely one of the best true crime books I've read. It sounds odd to say, but while I felt a smidge of sympathy for Dennis Nilsen being that he was so desperately loneley, I found him to be much more arrogant than Dahmer, who was overall very contrite.
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Jul 30, 2014 02:37
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Quint Gets Eaten posted:He also met with the sister of one of his victims to apologize and to try to explain that he didn't kill her brother because he hated him, but because he found him attractive and wanted to keep him with him. I think Dahmer was probably about as sorry as someone as mentally broken as him was capable of being. I think a lot of it is that people want to be able to easily categorize things, and by extention people, into neat little classifications. Serial killers act this way, psychopaths act this way, normal people do this other thing. They like to think of killers as weird monsters that aren't actually human and don't have families and friends and what have you. Part of why Dahmer is so unnerving is because he had those things but having them snatched away was part of what caused him to go over and lose control. Seeing a very human side of it makes it harder to knock him into "despicable thing to be destroyed" territory. Not only that but in interviews you could tell that he was suffering not just because of the life he had but because of what he did. It's easy to send somebody to the execution chamber if they relished murder or were a Hannibal Lecter type of evil genius. Dahmer was something else entirely. People do feel sympathy for him and it bothers them. The other snag is that there just isn't one profile for serial killers, especially if you look at cases like Dahmer. He defies what people think of when they imagine a serial killer and shoves the borders of that profile pretty far off what they think of. Most importantly, the compartment labelled "serial killer" is filled with stuff like "traits I do not have." The idea of loneliness factoring into what he ended up doing terrifies people because, let's be honest, how many of us have never been lonely?
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Jul 30, 2014 03:11
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Serial killer chat is fascinating but depressing as ever. Lets lighten things up a a bit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions quote:The Circumcellions or Agonisticis[1][2] (as called by Donatists) were bands of Berbers considered as heretical[3] Christian extremists in North Africa in the early- to mid-4th century.[4] They were initially concerned with remedying social grievances, but they became linked with the Donatist sect.[4] They condemned property and slavery, and advocated canceling debts and freeing slaves.[5] Donatists prized martyrdom and had a special devotion for the martyrs, rendering honours to their graves. Ok, sounds pretty cool so far... quote:The Circumcellions regarded martyrdom as the true Christian virtue...they focused on bringing about their own martyrdom. Huh? quote:On occasion, members of this group assaulted Roman legionaries or armed travelers with simple wooden clubs to provoke them into attacking and martyring them. Others interrupted courts of law and verbally provoked the judge so that he would order their immediate execution (a normal punishment at the time for contempt of court).[6] The sect survived until the fifth century in Africa.
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Jul 30, 2014 03:37
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That doesn't exactly sound like the textbook definition of martyrdom. Usually it involves being killed for your beliefs, not being killed as part of your beliefs.
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Jul 30, 2014 03:51
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muscles like this? posted:That doesn't exactly sound like the textbook definition of martyrdom. Usually it involves being killed for your beliefs, not being killed as part of your beliefs. I'm sure these insane cultists were really concerned with the textbook rules-lawyer definition of 'martyrdom'
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Jul 30, 2014 03:57
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Their interpretation of Peter laying down his sword is some seriously Air Bud poo poo.
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Jul 30, 2014 04:01
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AnonSpore posted:Their interpretation of Peter laying down his sword is some seriously Air Bud poo poo. Could you explain that? I love the idea of using Air Bud as a metaphor but I have no idea what you mean.
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Jul 30, 2014 04:11
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muscles like this? posted:That doesn't exactly sound like the textbook definition of martyrdom. Usually it involves being killed for your beliefs, not being killed as part of your beliefs. Getting martyred basically meant you went direction to heaven, no questions asked, but for exactly that reason it wasn't exactly easy to get martyred during periods when Christianity was the only show in town. Generally speaking, to be a martyr somebody had to kill you because you were a Christian specifically, not because you were a Christian that jumped out of a bush and yelled at somebody. It's also problematic in that a lot of martyrdom that is held up as an example for other Christians to follow was ultimately bullshit anyway. No evidence actually exists to support Christians being deliberately fed to lions, for example. There were cases of Christians being persecuted in various ways in Rome but it was a minority of them. Most Christians at the time were basically ignored and left alone so long as they paid their taxes and didn't start poo poo. It just plain sounds better if your religion survived against all odds in the face of ludicrously more powerful enemies so a poo poo load of utterly false apocryphal stories were made up centuries after they supposedly happened. Then there's this stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellants Yeah. That one wasn't made up.
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Jul 30, 2014 04:28
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stickyfngrdboy posted:Dahmer had a guy's head in a box. His dad asked him to open the box, and Dahmer refused. His dad threatened to open it, thinking it was porn, but they fought and he never did. If I was the dad that would be the only thing I'd feel guilty about, because it could have stopped earlier had he opened that box, but even that's a stretch.
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Jul 30, 2014 04:36
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Leon Einstein posted:You got a source on this? Not that I think you're lying, but I haven't heard this story. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPMBfX7D4WU&t=4040s (If the link time doesn't carry over, cue it to 1 hour 7 minutes)
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Jul 30, 2014 05:54
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I'd never heard of the Circumcellions before and that is some interesting stuff. Sorry to bring it back to Dahmer, but all the sympatheic posts and stuff about his parents being cold and distant reminded me of Harlow's psych experiments with monkeys. Harlow denied juvenile macaques any social contact and forced them to live miserable lonely lives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harlow#Partial_and_total_isolation_of_infant_monkeys That has been posted before and it's much more extreme than Dahmer's case. Still, the parallels are creepy and unnerving. Articles about completely abandoned children are the stuff of nightmares but I can't stop reading. Feral children are the most widely known examples, but there are also cases where the parent imprisoned their child and forced them to live in isolation for their entire childhood. Genie is a good example of that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_%28feral_child%29 If anyone has similar wiki pages to share, please do. There are tons of examples of children that were abducted and put into rape torture dungeons, but the ones where a human is born and isolated/abused for their entire life crank up all the awful parts to 11. I feel awful, fascinated and guilty when I read about these things. Despite the gut-wrenching despair I always think about how much these cases benefit people who study the mind and human development... They can never and would never (please don't prove me wrong, science) want to subject anyone to this. The information these poor souls provide is priceless. There's a small sliver of hope that their suffering will help someone, some day.
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Jul 30, 2014 06:05
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Stayne Falls posted:Could you explain that? I love the idea of using Air Bud as a metaphor but I have no idea what you mean. "It doesn't say a dog can't play basketball anywhere in the rulebook!" "Jesus didn't order anyone to lay down their club, just their sword you see?"
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Jul 30, 2014 08:42
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p-hop posted:
From above quote:Linguists later determined that Genie only showed understanding of about 1520 words, all of which she responded to as if they had been spoken in isolation. Hospital staff concluded that her active vocabulary consisted of just two short phrases, "stop it" and "no more". 
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Jul 30, 2014 13:25
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The story of Genie kills me every time I read it, especially because even after she was finally rescued, the hospital was unable to care for her and she ended up regressing, as well as having to live with her mother again.
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Jul 30, 2014 13:40
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Quint Gets Eaten posted:I remember Park Dietz (famous forensic psychiatrist) saying in an interview that out of the people he's evaluated, he actually liked Dahmer because he was so forthcoming and honest, and that he was probably the only person in the world who was sad when Dahmer was murdered in prison aside from his father. The detective who arrested him wound up liking him and claims to have cried when he was killed.
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Jul 30, 2014 14:18
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The fact that people feel sympathy for Dahmer is the scary or unnerving part of the whole thing. Why does anyone even write fictional stories about monsters when we have real monsters wearing human skin living among us? Obviously not him specifically since he's dead now, but who knows what any random person you walk by on the street has in a barrel in their home?
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Jul 30, 2014 15:11
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Stayne Falls posted:Could you explain that? I love the idea of using Air Bud as a metaphor but I have no idea what you mean. I was typing up a reply but noticed that Desk Lamp had pretty much already answered the question: Desk Lamp posted:"It doesn't say a dog can't play basketball anywhere in the rulebook!"
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Jul 30, 2014 15:41
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BattleMaster posted:Why does anyone even write fictional stories about monsters when we have real monsters wearing human skin living among us? To reassure ourselves that the monsters are different.
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Jul 30, 2014 15:58
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BattleMaster posted:The fact that people feel sympathy for Dahmer is the scary or unnerving part of the whole thing. Why does anyone even write fictional stories about monsters when we have real monsters wearing human skin living among us? Not sure if you missed the entire point of the discussion, but people feel sympathy for Dahmer because you can't just throw him in the box labelled "monster" or "not really a human like I am".
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Jul 30, 2014 16:20
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DStecks posted:Not sure if you missed the entire point of the discussion, but people feel sympathy for Dahmer because you can't just throw him in the box labelled "monster" or "not really a human like I am". Things that can turn you from a person into a "monster": mental illnesses (including adult-onset illnesses), head injuries, regular illnesses that lead to brain damage like encephalopathy, severe drug or alcohol abuse, etc. But perhaps it's scary to think that you're only a few healthy neurons away from monsterdom. It's easier to imagine that someone like Dahmer is unlike you.
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Jul 30, 2014 16:25
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DStecks posted:Not sure if you missed the entire point of the discussion, but people feel sympathy for Dahmer because you can't just throw him in the box labelled "monster" or "not really a human like I am". If you are going to sympathize with anything less than a manically laughing puppy murdering psychopath... I mean everyone is just a victim to circumstance if you really want to start going down that rabbit hole, especially those "monsters" that didn't even have the capacity know any better to begin with.
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Jul 30, 2014 16:36
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BioMe posted:
A scary prospect isn't it? What if it turned out that's how it actually works? To get along day-to-day humans have a need to "know" themselves. But the brain is a very scary in how much it controls our "self" and it is not easy to come to terms with the idea that something going wrong in there changes everything about us. Basebf555 has a new favorite as of 16:40 on Jul 30, 2014 |
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Jul 30, 2014 16:37
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Dahmer was a mess and he knew it. Every single person has the capabilty of doing monstrous horrible things though. Like the nazis that worked in concentration camps or the residents of the towns around them. I doubt everyone involved were skinning people or eating human genitals, but they are still monstrous human beings.
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Jul 30, 2014 17:00
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I don't think any of us are justifying what he did. You can feel sympathy for someone; it doesn't make you a supporter of their actions. I think we're just pointing out that not everyone fits into a specific set of labels, not even someone who murdered seventeen people, and that is scary and unnerving.
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Jul 30, 2014 21:00
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"If I lived almost my entire life constantly bullied, grievously alcoholic, repeatedly abandoned, hating myself for being gay, and increasingly unable to understand how to connect with other humans, in the middle of poo poo nowhere with no prospects and nothing to do, I would never develop any weird compulsions because I'm mentally stronger than others and humans are inherently good except for a few who aren't and that's that.  "Of course it doesn't justify what he did, but drat, people, you really can't see why he might have been a fine person if his situation had been different? I think mostly people are just scared to think that if they were unlucky enough, they might end up stuck with compulsive thoughts about killing. Most people never even consider what it would be like to have thoughts that won't go away, let alone having them for years without a single person trustworthy enough to talk to about it. Seriously, imagine if you developed obsessive-compulsive violent thoughts as a kid and you never had the opportunity to talk to a therapist, you just drank yourself stupid every day for years to forget about it. You'd get hosed up and the way you think about others would change. Any resulting violence would still be your fault but chances are you'd be pretty quick to place some of the blame on your mental state, unwise teenage coping mechanisms, and everyone else's inability to notice or do anything, which Dahmer refrained from doing. Cobweb Heart has a new favorite as of 22:18 on Jul 30, 2014 |
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Jul 30, 2014 22:14
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Cobweb Heart posted:"If I lived almost my entire life constantly bullied, grievously alcoholic, repeatedly abandoned, hating myself for being gay, and increasingly unable to understand how to connect with other humans, in the middle of poo poo nowhere with no prospects and nothing to do, I would never develop any weird compulsions because I'm mentally stronger than others and humans are inherently good except for a few who aren't and that's that. Most people like that do in fact cope without committing several murders, yes.
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Jul 30, 2014 22:20
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BioMe posted:Most people like that do in fact cope without committing several murders, yes. Tons of people have a high percentage of those issues and the only reason we even know about Dahmer by name is because he is in fact a very very exceptional and not at all typical example of a human. Plus a similar guy here in Canada was Russell Williams, a decorated officer in the Canadian Forces (or Royal Canadian Army or whatever the gently caress Harper renamed it to) who achieved the rank of Colonel and ran a large military base here in Ontario. On many occasions he drove off of his base, broke into women's houses, took pictures of himself wearing their underwear, and several who were unlucky enough to be present were raped, tortured, and murdered. Then he'd just drive back to his base like nothing happened. Or what about Anders Breivik, according to whom the worst thing that ever happened to him is that his prison is only giving him a Playstation 2 and not the Playstation 3 he demands. Point is that being abused or having a hard life or whatever doesn't have any real correlation with turning people into monstrous serial killers; tons of people manage to cope with poo poo situations without brutalizing other people.
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Jul 30, 2014 22:31
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BioMe posted:Most people like that do in fact cope without committing several murders, yes. No arguing that point, you're right. The person at fault for the murders is 100% Dahmer. I'm not sure why you think that's the issue being discussed though.
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Jul 30, 2014 22:36
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LawfulWaffle posted:Here's a contribution: The Green Man. A man horribly disfigured as a youth takes long walks at night to not terrify his neighbors, and creates an urban legend that outlives his humble exsistance. The photo's worth clicking through for. Holy poo poo... I had no idea until now that The Green Man was based on a real-life person  The Green Man was (is?) a ubiquitous scary story that anyone in my area could tell you about. I think a bunch of college kids even did a PBS/SyFy/somesuchstation special on Green Man's Tunnel a few years ago - there was no mention of it being based on an actual man. I am mortified that the scariest thing in my childhood is actually based on a lonely, disfigured old man....Reminiscing on my hometown, reminded me of the Toynbee tiles : "messages of unknown origin found embedded in asphalt of streets in about two dozen major cities in the United States and four South American capitals." One is still embedded on a street in Pittsburgh; used to walk across it all the time.
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Jul 30, 2014 22:41
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Basebf555 posted:No arguing that point, you're right. The person at fault for the murders is 100% Dahmer. I'm not sure why you think that's the issue being discussed though. No one is thinking that. Also, no one actually feels sympathy for every person who isn't a cartoon villain.
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Jul 30, 2014 23:26
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BurroughsBane posted:Holy poo poo... I had no idea until now that The Green Man was based on a real-life person A few years ago? I remembered reading that very wiki page years ago. Checking the revision history, it goes back to 2007. Those guys could have just tapped 9 characters into google and saved themselves the embarrassment.
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Jul 30, 2014 23:52
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Lets try to jump away from serial killers again. They should probably have their own thread since I find them fascinating and love to hear other people's opinions or interesting facts that aren't on wikipedia pages, but there is no way in hell I'm starting a "Post Your Favorite Serial Killer" thread. The Tsavo Man-Eaters Two lions that terrorized a bridge construction project in Kenya towards the end of the 19th century. If the stories are to be believed they killed over 100 people and one of them was shot a ton of loving times before dying. I've seen them at the Field Museum a few times and always struggle to comprehend how, I don't know, obsurd the whole thing seems by today's standards. I just can't imagine that much carnage being caused by two animals. Actually, all the man-eater entries are pretty intriguing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-eater It goes to show that we're still part of the food chain no matter how advanced we get. Solice Kirsk has a new favorite as of 05:23 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 05:15
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AnonSpore posted:Their interpretation of Peter laying down his sword is some seriously Air Bud poo poo. That view held on for a long time; cf. Bishop Odo's holy-water sprinkler.
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Jul 31, 2014 05:28
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Solice Kirsk posted:The Tsavo Man-Eaters Make sure you listen to this soundtrack while you read, and imagine Val Kilmer affecting a horrid Irish accent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTC56wpNwYg
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Jul 31, 2014 05:38
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so, I just played a game called anna (its good in some respects and very bad in others just so you know) I stumbled upon this article. some people thought the game was based on this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogne_homicide It's a murder case, the victim being a 3 year old boy. The creepy thing about it is the mother's behavior/words afterwords. quote:A few minutes later, the couple was told that the baby had died before reaching hospital. At this point, Mr. Lorenzi fell to the ground in panic, sobbing and screaming, while his wife began to ask him:
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Jul 31, 2014 06:04
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Official: Vermillion teens died in car crash in 1971. This popped up on the AP wire earlier this year. Yep, this year. Sioux City Journal posted:ELK POINT, S.D. | After nearly 43 years of searching for answers, Kay Brock finally has an explanation, albeit incomplete, of what happened the late-spring evening her younger sister, Pamella Jackson, mysteriously disappeared. The car was actually found in the creek late last year, but the investigation wasn't complete until April. For 43 years, the answer to the question was right there. But yet, it was sunk into water, invisible. This was a similar one: Skeleton in Car Solves 32-Year-Old Mystery. I think I remember reading this on Snopes years ago while wasting time at work. Lake Lanier, mentioned in this article, is kinda freaky anyway. It's man-made and the only things moved for its creation were cemeteries. There's at least some forest under the water, homes ... and a racetrack. Someone claimed to have spotted a gas station down there. (There's also an inordinate amount of drownings and boat accidents.)
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Jul 31, 2014 07:34
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Byron David Smith. This guy got tired of kids breaking into his basement so he makes his house look like its empty one night and lays in wait for the kids to break in again. The most chilling thing is how he just coup de grāce's the girl after his first gun jams. This guy was rightfully convinced of first degree murder, as he had no other intention besides killing some kids that night. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_David_Smith_killings
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Jul 31, 2014 07:45
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