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Xae posted:The dirty little secret of offshoring is that it almost never saves money. I worked for one of the larger consulting companies that focused on offshoring. They promised 66%-75% Headcount offshore knowing it would never work. But the point wasn't to get the offshore model to work. The point was to get their foot in the door so they could get onshore guys in the company. Usually guys they paid $50k/yr but billed at $150-$200/hr to the client. This reminds me of that parasite that enters the mouth of a fish, digests it's tongue and in time fully replaces it. 
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Jul 31, 2014 16:11
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:In some jurisdictions they specifically call out "software engineers" as an example of misuse if they are not actively registered engineers; here's Florida: Because Software Engineering is going through the beginning of professionalization. And I think that this is a good thing, though ABET needs to get its head out of its rear end and throw out its piss poor CS requirements and defer to ACM and IEEE.
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Jul 31, 2014 16:15
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Solkanar512 posted:This reminds me of that parasite that enters the mouth of a fish, digests it's tongue and in time fully replaces it. So a large number of employees bail. They tend to be the good ones, the ones that can walk into an interview at 9:00 and have a job offer at 9:05. So the company just lost many of their core employees. The guys who run the show and have the most knowledge. The consulting company steps in and brings people onboard to fill these roles. They are now in control of key functions of your IT department. And you know what these guys think the smartest move in the world would be? Have the consulting company run the entire IT department.
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Jul 31, 2014 16:28
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Ytlaya posted:Most of the programmers I know tend to be more stereotypical democrats; liberal on social issues and sort of milquetoast (rather than ayn rand/libertarian) on economic ones. I think that the more outspoken ones tend to stand out more. I'm just dropping by in the thread to say basically this. There's a selection bias at work here if you think that software developers are, almost unanimously, slavish devotees of Ayn Rand. The thing is: Slavish devotees of Ayn Rand, more than any other group of people, believe that their opinion is the solid-gold word of god and a gift to spread to everybody. Naturally, you'd hear more from them. And, yeah, they're a bit more common among programmers than among other demographic groups but the theocratic, regressive type of conservative is less common so the ratio of decent human beings to total assholes stays about the same. Caveat: My source is I know a lot of software developers so it's all anecdotal evidence. Apologies for the asspull whiteboy opinion but I don't thing real statistics on this exist, so eh. 
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Jul 31, 2014 16:36
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size1one posted:
Screw Big Doctor - I'm a Process Management Physician, and I don't see why the public would ever be confused (p.s. I absolutely want that exact wording on on my resume because calling myself a doctor makes me look better and I don't see any contradiction here no siree)
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Jul 31, 2014 16:42
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Best Friends posted:Screw Big Doctor - I'm a Process Management Physician, and I don't see why the public would ever be confused (p.s. I absolutely want that exact wording on on my resume because calling myself a doctor makes me look better and I don't see any contradiction here no siree) Which company(s?) was that which lets their devs pick their titles and ended up with a bunch of official Head Wizards and Code Ninjas? Blizzard? GitHub?
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Jul 31, 2014 16:58
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I'm not sure but I am seeing "ninja" appear absolutely everywhere and it is bad. Though honestly it would be nice if more people were silent, if not so much the whole "tradition-bound assassin" part. I'm counting down for the first Ninja ____ Evangelist in the wild.
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Jul 31, 2014 17:22
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:Which company(s?) was that which lets their devs pick their titles and ended up with a bunch of official Head Wizards and Code Ninjas? Blizzard? GitHub? Probably Palantir.
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Jul 31, 2014 17:23
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pretty sure you guys are mad at rich white people for being rich and white. there is a reason why they make more money than you do, it's because their work produces value. looks like majoring in philosophy didn't work out so well.
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Jul 31, 2014 17:29
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Best Friends posted:Screw Big Doctor - I'm a Process Management Physician, and I don't see why the public would ever be confused (p.s. I absolutely want that exact wording on on my resume because calling myself a doctor makes me look better and I don't see any contradiction here no siree) If you come up with a better set of titles than Engineer and Architect that accurately describe those subsets of Software Development please let me know.
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Jul 31, 2014 17:32
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FamDav posted:so now i dont really know if youre just angry and want to be angry at somebody or what. Not at all angry and there is zero hate here. FamDav posted:I asked him what makes another field that has existed for centuries and hasn't seen commoditization work, and he said nothing. I implied a response. I'll be explict. What did they do? Do you know how people in investment banking work? They work hard, drat hard. Very long days, they are often pressured into skipping vacations. Often it's viewed as something you do for a couple of years and then get the gently caress out of to do something else decent. "Do it or we'll fire you" is a pretty common description of the environment. To fit in you have do certain things (it helps to pick up golfing), to look at certain way (suit up, is actually a pretty accurate description), to act a certain way and most importantly to think in certain ways. What ways have the group chosen to look at the world, to look at people and workers and to look at themselves? What is valued? We deserve what we are paid, we work harder than the rest of you. I did it, you can do it or you're fired. How much money can we make? The tech world is starting to make those same choices. "Gladiator culture" for the core employees and variations of neo-talyorism for the rest of us. Maybe I should cut what I'm saying down to it's core. Self and greed directed towards the end of power. And having power is one way to stave off the commiditization of what one does, to protect oneself. McAlister posted:They've been trying to offshore us for a decade now and they get burned when they do. How long did it take for shipbuilding to leave Europe? (or the US) A decade is pretty short term. And good constant communication is vital to any industry. What you need to worry about is not the situation where you send them work and they send it back. You should be worried about the situation where the whole system moves, where the entire conversation occurs in Indian or Chinese. Much more capital intensive industrial systems have moved in the past. Then a business analyst is not needed. CCrew posted:That's a pretty big oversimplification of a trend. Manufacturing is all about physical capital and infrastructure, engineering and software are all about human capital and education infrastructure. Countries like china already have developers, look at RenRen. That doesn't mean US companies are clamoring for them, and the industry currently has a shortage of programmers. Right and one of those things (physical capital and infrastructure) is much more expensive to move or to recreate from scratch than the other. And don't think it's just India or China. Places Haifa or Ireland are gunning for your industry. I've already personally seen R&D infrastructure headed there. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 17:40
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Xae posted:If you come up with a better set of titles than Engineer and Architect that accurately describe those subsets of Software Development please let me know. - Designer - Programmer - Coder - QA (word that isn't engineer/architect here) - High Greybeard - Developer - System Planner It's actually pretty easy to avoid taking titles of (what should be) protected and highly regulated job titles! It's almost like the fact those titles carry high prestige and people would want to co-op them without the pain involved...
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Jul 31, 2014 17:53
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Stanos posted:- Designer I'm using this as my job title henceforth. Thanks.
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Jul 31, 2014 17:56
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ZShakespeare posted:I'm using this as my job title henceforth. Thanks. Some people, on the other hand, should use Supreme Neckbeard  Also calling everyone an engineer even if they don't do actual engineering is confusing and sounds pretentious if you overdo it.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:01
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Stanos posted:- Designer But don't you understand, they deserve to be called engineers and architects because it's difficult work that uses a computer. SocialFartApp is ~*engineered*~ with the same level of precision and expertise as a skyscraper or rocket engine or nuclear reactor so why should they be any less deserving of the name? Why, those senior software engineers worked for 3 whole years to append "senior" to that title, and now you say that they didn't earn any of it at all? Preposterous, some of them even have computer science degrees. H.P. Hovercraft fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 18:07
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As far as I know operations research predates computing (you know, the guys and gals who helped the Allies in WWII optimize their supply lines), and none of these people possess the title "engineer." Hell, along with mathematicians, these guys developed linear optimization to help the Allies and later businesses with their supply chains. Seems more important than apps, no?
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Jul 31, 2014 18:35
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I can't believe you people are seriously upset about software developers using a job title you don't feel they deserve. This is truly the greatest thread  A group of professionals having an inflated sense of importance and inventing a mission to pretend they are not just doing poo poo for money? Why I never
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Jul 31, 2014 18:36
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Slobjob Zizek posted:As far as I know operations research predates computing (you know, the guys and gals who helped the Allies in WWII optimize their supply lines), and none of these people possess the title "engineer." Hell, along with mathematicians, these guys developed linear optimization to help the Allies and later businesses with their supply lines. Seems more important than apps, no? There's a lot of crossover with them and Systems/Industrial Engineers though. Although I guess to be fair a lot of those don't take the PE either (there is a PE exam for IEs though).
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Jul 31, 2014 18:38
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Gantolandon posted:I can't believe you people are seriously upset about software developers using a job title you don't feel they deserve. This is truly the greatest thread Professions are pre-capitalist, and inherently contain some element of pride and exclusivity that money can't buy.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:38
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Professional engineer does not mean engineer. I do not have PE at the end of my name on my résumé, but my Masters of Electrical Engineering boss chose the title "software engineer" for me. The word has been around for a lot longer than the certification, why does "engineer" better fit mechanical engineering than programming? Ignoring that some states require professional engineering licenses, what is the argument to restrict the word? I honestly don't give a gently caress about my title, and had no say in choosing it, but I've never had any of the 25 "traditional engineers" I work with challenge it. Also, anecdotal evidence I know like two liberal engineers, the rest are die hard libertarians or conservatives based on age.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:42
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Stanos posted:- Designer Not one of those adequately defines it: designer - more often equated to graphic design or user interface design programmer - involves no design at all. This is the "just pressing buttons on a keyboard to make fart apps" that H.p Hovercrafts thinks encompasses everything we do coder - same as above QA - this usually doesn't even involve programming at all, anyone who can use a computer can do this job. high greybeard - about as useful as wizard, or ninja developer - This is the best fit but it doesn't begin to describe the challenge of the problems. It has gotten better in recent years but when I started my career no one understood what this term meant. system planner - Doesn't encompass the programming aspect of it. H.P. Hovercraft posted:But don't you understand, they deserve to be called engineers and architects because it's difficult work that uses a computer. 15 years experience. Not counting school, internships, and 10 years learning on my own. I've worked on things that are rigorously tested to meet or exceed client standards and state & federal laws (FERPA, HIPAA, FDA, etc.) Software affects vast portions of the world, including controlling rocket engines and nuclear reactors. Why do you insist the only thing being built are SocialFartApps?
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Jul 31, 2014 18:44
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I've worked very hard, have a lot of experience, and a challenging degree, so I think it's pretty fair to call myself Doctor. Besides, how else are you going to say "person who fixes things?"
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Jul 31, 2014 18:52
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Best Friends posted:I've worked very hard, have a lot of experience, and a challenging degree, so I think it's pretty fair to call myself Doctor. Besides, how else are you going to say "person who fixes things?" Just make sure you're “National Ophthalmology Board” certified.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:54
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Best Friends posted:I've worked very hard, have a lot of experience, and a challenging degree, so I think it's pretty fair to call myself Doctor. Besides, how else are you going to say "person who fixes things?" Ph.D. means "Doctor of Philosophy" - how do you deal with the fact that some people use this title even though they don't know poo poo about medicine?
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Jul 31, 2014 18:56
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Gantolandon posted:Ph.D. means "Doctor of Philosophy" - how do you deal with the fact that some people use this title even though they don't know poo poo about medicine? Or what about those posers who have a Ph.D. in a non-Philosophy field.
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Jul 31, 2014 18:58
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computer parts posted:There's a lot of crossover with them and Systems/Industrial Engineers though. Okay, nevermind, I looked at the requirements. IE is weird. I know a lot of economists and math guys who could probably pass that exam -- so what is the point of it? I guess that's why in CA the exam is only needed to use the title but not to actually do anything special. Optimization is for everyone!
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Jul 31, 2014 18:58
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Gantolandon posted:Ph.D. means "Doctor of Philosophy" - how do you deal with the fact that some people use this title even though they don't know poo poo about medicine? Whoa, a different valid credentialed use of the term?
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Jul 31, 2014 18:59
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Best Friends posted:Whoa, a different valid credentialed use of the term? Physicians are starting to stick with title "physician" anyway because of the encroaching use of "doctor." There are Doctors of Nursing, Optometry, Pharmacy, Physical Therapy, Dentistry, etc...
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Jul 31, 2014 19:00
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I'm pretty sure the entire field poo poo the titular bed when it decided to go with Computer "Science".
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Jul 31, 2014 19:01
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Gantolandon posted:Ph.D. means "Doctor of Philosophy" - how do you deal with the fact that some people use this title even though they don't know poo poo about medicine? Thank you for admitting you're an idiot who doesn't understand what philosophy referred to historically.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:01
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blowfish posted:Thank you for admitting you're an idiot who doesn't understand what philosophy referred to historically. Thank you for admitting to being an idiot who is too dense to realize the point was that that definition and usage of words changes over time.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:02
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Obviously the world should just switch to the superior German academic tradition where scientists are called Dr rer. nat. and medics Dr med. 
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Jul 31, 2014 19:03
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So the only argument is professional engineer exams exist? Are computer or electrical engineers considered engineers? They may just build PCBs and be in a state not requiring a cert.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:03
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Xae posted:Thank you for admitting to being an idiot who is too dense to realize the point was that that definition and usage of words changes over time. "See, there's this credential, but also, this credential, and therefore, credentials don't exist."
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Jul 31, 2014 19:03
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I wonder how much ire lowly train conductors get for daring to call themselves engineers.Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen posted:The general qualifications which must be met before a man or woman becomes eligible for the position of locomotive engineer:
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Jul 31, 2014 19:04
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If an engineer's faults cause an accident or worse, they are usually taken to court and charges are pressed. If one of the projects you worked on was faulty enough to cause an accident or worse, would you be fine with prison or massive fines?
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Jul 31, 2014 19:06
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size1one posted:I wonder how much ire lowly train conductors get for daring to call themselves engineers. The train conductors have to be stopped before their use of the word engineer devalues all professions with engineering degrees, a thing which idiots in this thread believe can happen
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Jul 31, 2014 19:06
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CCrew posted:So the only argument is professional engineer exams exist? Are computer or electrical engineers considered engineers? They may just build PCBs and be in a state not requiring a cert. Nope. There's a law on the books in Florida where Engineer means something, ergo IEEE needs to buck up and pick a new name. Florida, the modern mecca of responsible legislation.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:06
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Being able to fix and operate something does not automatically make one an engineer. Also for maximum pedantry, does the locomotive engineer call himself engineer because he's an actual honest to god engineer or because he's driving a big fat engine? (at this point, feel free to vote the thread 1)
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Jul 31, 2014 19:08
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size1one posted:15 years experience. Not counting school, internships, and 10 years learning on my own. I'm surprised with your level of experience that you're unfamiliar with how licensed engineers are the ones who develop the software for things like rocket engines and nuclear reactors, spending years looking through them forwards and backwards in order to meet things like ASTM standards and ISO-9000 certification. These standards ensure some base level of competency, but the professional liability incurred by these titled engineers for their work is what is meant to ensure proper design. Are you interested in being criminally liable for all of your work, forever? Sued by your clients if your work does not meet standards or even deadlines? Because that's a large part of what the title denotes. But you might be surprised to learn that all engineers are required to learn the fundamentals of engineering, regardless of their specific field, and must pass an exam to this effect in order to practice in their chosen field upon graduation. This necessarily includes things like thermodynamics, electrical engineering, statics, and a hearty dose of physics. I'm sure computer science isn't easy and has a high attrition rate, but you have no idea what goes on in a proper engineering program. They require the highest number of credit hours of any undergraduate degree, and will soon be phasing in graduate credit hours as part of the required curricula (10 of them last I checked). You really don't want software to be included with that.
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Jul 31, 2014 19:08
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