|
Basically ME2 should have dealt with at least some of the stuff they only introduced in the Leviathan DLC for ME3. There was actually a reasonable way to write themselves out of the corner somewhere in there.
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 17:36 |
|
|
Geostomp posted:Because said superweapon was never hinted at before and has no defined function, which makes it an obvious deus ex machina in waiting for the writers to pull themselves out of the corner they wrote themselves in. It makes no sense for everyone to spend what few resources they have left on this thing with no guarantee that it even could help. Worse, it's unnecessary because they have other ways out that have been established or were at least plausible that are just ignored like the Citadel relay control, the 2000+ year delay on the invasion, and recovered Reaper weaponry. The whole point of the Crucible is the uncertainty of it. The idea of it is what feeds into ME3's main theme, this attitude that we're probably hosed, people are losing hope and dying all over the place, Shepard is trying to rally together what is left of the galaxy (often at the expense of defending their own homeworlds!) into this one huge project that transcends the deaths of thousands of civilisations, and we know that there's a good chance it wouldn't even work. The idea of ME3 is about creating this wild, almost irrational hope against the alternative of total despair. Making the game be about a solution that is prosaic like 'better guns', or 'switching off the relays', or something, just wouldn't work with that. An enemy you know how to defeat isn't scary. And how would the plot even work? Why would Shepard have to rally the species of the galaxy? Who wouldn't be automatically on board with a plan revolving around 'hey let's build ships with better guns'? The people you have to turn around would no longer look like scared and traumatised victims, they'd just be a bunch of infuriating idiots. The Crucible itself hasn't been described, no, but the general theme of the legacy of the Protheans is one that runs through the course of the previous games, as is the idea that the Reapers also have had a hand in creating what is seen as Prothean tech. EDIT: If the solution was as prosiac as 'build reapertech guns', how would that solution to the Reaper problem be logical? If the reapers can be defeated by a simple method, why hasn't any of the thousands of prior civilisations done so before? The only fix to that potential plothole is to say that they couldn't have done it before because the Council races only succeeded by *building on the efforts of those past failed attempts*. Hence, the Crucible. Fangz fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Jul 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:45
|
|
|
Geostomp posted:Because said superweapon was never hinted at before and has no defined function, which makes it an obvious deus ex machina in waiting for the writers to pull themselves out of the corner they wrote themselves in. It makes no sense for everyone to spend what few resources they have left on this thing with no guarantee that it even could help. Worse, it's unnecessary because they have other ways out that have been established or were at least plausible that are just ignored like the Citadel relay control, the 2000+ year delay on the invasion, and recovered Reaper weaponry. There was a mention of a superweapon mentioned in the codex for the second game (I think, it's been a while): one planet was mentioned to have a several-thousand-mile-long scar across it, which was theorised to have been made by a previously-unknown form of weapon. I've heard that this was supposed to be foreshadowing to the final game, having you looking for the creators of the weapon or hunting down lost tech, but it got dropped somewhere along the line or morphed into what we have now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:47
|
|
|
Fangz posted:
Except we do know how to defeat them. You shoot them in the glowing red gently caress-me light. Like in the first game. Everyone just seems to forget this and tries to shoot them in the armor.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:48
|
|
|
Kaboom Dragoon posted:There was a mention of a superweapon mentioned in the codex for the second game (I think, it's been a while): one planet was mentioned to have a several-thousand-mile-long scar across it, which was theorised to have been made by a previously-unknown form of weapon. I've heard that this was supposed to be foreshadowing to the final game, having you looking for the creators of the weapon or hunting down lost tech, but it got dropped somewhere along the line or morphed into what we have now. Except that's not at all what the superweapon does. Also, hiding important foreshadowing in the datalogs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:52
|
|
|
Kaboom Dragoon posted:There was a mention of a superweapon mentioned in the codex for the second game (I think, it's been a while): one planet was mentioned to have a several-thousand-mile-long scar across it, which was theorised to have been made by a previously-unknown form of weapon. I've heard that this was supposed to be foreshadowing to the final game, having you looking for the creators of the weapon or hunting down lost tech, but it got dropped somewhere along the line or morphed into what we have now. You find out what that superweapon is in ME2 - it's a giant cannon which killed the Derelict Reaper. Which is one of the many ways described both in the codex and in the game for killing Reapers (there is literally a codex entry called "Reaper vulnerabilities" which talks about how to conventionally kill Reapers - a Dreadnought isn't enough but a few of them with Thanix cannons can be). That superweapon doesn't foreshadow the Crucible, it just makes the idea of everyone pouring their resources into it rather than building a few dozen supercannons even dumber. quote:If the solution was as prosiac as 'build reapertech guns', how would that solution to the Reaper problem be logical? If the reapers can be defeated by a simple method, why hasn't any of the thousands of prior civilisations done so before? The only fix to that potential plothole is to say that they couldn't have done it before because the Council races only succeeded by *building on the efforts of those past failed attempts*. Hence, the Crucible. The other races didn't have the advantage of not having their governments, best fleets, and control of the mass relays wiped out in one blow by a Reaper strike on the Citadel - which was the entire point of Mass Effect 1. They also didn't have the Reapers having to use FTL drives to move all the way from dark space. There are plenty of ways to write this in a way that made sense. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Jul 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:54
|
|
|
Flytrap posted:Except we do know how to defeat them. You shoot them in the glowing red gently caress-me light. Like in the first game. Everyone just seems to forget this and tries to shoot them in the armor. Sovereign's shields were disrupted because of Shepard killing Saren while he was in direct control of him. Reapers are strong because of their shields, not their armour. A reaper without shields can be killed by infantry weapons - see ME2.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:55
|
|
|
Man dude I appreciate your LP and like it but just quoting a bunch of posts and going 'bad!' like you're talking to a disobedient dog because they have a thought or opinion you disagree with has kind of soured me on this.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:57
|
|
|
The complaints about the superweapon aren't (necessarily) that 'well the galaxy should beat the reapers with cunning and chutzpah!'; it's that introducing an invincible threat, and then in the same breath turning around and saying 'oh but you found a black-box magic cure in your backyard' is the least interesting way you could set up this conflict. There's no way to react to that revelation other than "Oh. Okay.  ".
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 13:58
|
|
|
Rogue0071 posted:The other races didn't have the advantage of not having their governments, best fleets, and control of the mass relays wiped out in one blow by a Reaper strike on the Citadel - which was the entire point of Mass Effect 1. They also didn't have the Reapers having to use FTL drives to move all the way from dark space. There are plenty of ways to write this in a way that made sense. Is it plausible that the Reaper attack on the Citadel is always successful? I think not. Stuff like the giant mega-rail gun notably did not defeat the reapers. It destroyed a grand total of 1 Reaper before being destroyed itself. In any case, it's a game. You're neglecting the point here - the crucible is supposed to be not the obvious right choice. That gives Shepard something to do to get people on board with it. Otherwise ME3 would be about looking at a shipyard waiting for construction to be completed. I suppose one improvement would be to have ME2 or the early part of ME3 show that 'build bigger guns' type solutions don't work. But I think that overall giving the player more certainty in the method of defeating the Reapers is a bad idea for the atmosphere ME3 is going for. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jul 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:04
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Is it plausible that the Reaper attack on the Citadel is always successful? I think not. Until the Protheans altered how the Keepers work yes, it was: you didn't have a Sovereign-style attack on it, just it being suborned for the Reaper fleet to suddenly show up en masse right outside it. quote:Stuff like the giant mega-rail gun notably did not defeat the reapers. It destroyed a grand total of 1 Reaper before being destroyed itself. If it's cheaper to build than 3-4 Dreadnoughts with Thanix cannons, than it's a cost-effective method of attack. If it's not, you could build Dreadnoughts instead. You could also be using them with defensive fleets as part of a broader strategy rather than a "we're dying but gently caress you" parting shot. quote:In any case, it's a game. You're neglecting the point here - the crucible is supposed to be not the obvious right choice. That gives Shepard something to do to get people on board with it. Otherwise ME3 would be about looking at a shipyard waiting for construction to be completed. People can still disagree about the viability of conventional strategies or be prevented from unifying through selfishness and pettiness (which they do in Mass Effect 3!). This isn't some special property only applicable about a superweapon. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Jul 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:06
|
|
|
Rogue0071 posted:Until the Protheans altered how the Keepers work yes, it was: you didn't have a Sovereign-style attack on it, just it being suborned for the Reaper fleet to suddenly show up en masse right outside it. Is it plausible for the Protheans to be the *only* ones who have attempted to reprogram the Keepers? Why even keep Sovereign around as a backup plan? The Reaper modus operandi is that there's backup plan within backup plan within backup plan. There's no room for any individual chance factor to ruin things. I'd argue that the Citadel attack *has* been foiled previously, but the Reapers won anyway, then went in and reset the Keepers' programming. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Jul 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:14
|
|
|
Endorph posted:Man dude I appreciate your LP and like it but just quoting a bunch of posts and going 'bad!' like you're talking to a disobedient dog because they have a thought or opinion you disagree with has kind of soured me on this. It's really dull and bad criticism, that's why. It's predicated entirely on what somebody thinks the story should be, rather than what it is. There's a place for counter-factual analysis, but not when it gets you to the wrong conclusion. Technically the concept of the Crucible is set up back in Mass Effect 1. e: you don't have to agree with me! that's cool, I don't mind. but I'm not gonna pussyfoot around when I think someone is wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:22
|
|
|
Fangz posted:I'd argue that the Citadel attack *has* been foiled previously, but the Reapers won anyway, then went in and reset the Keepers' programming. Except it's still broken for Shepard's go at it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:25
|
|
|
Heatwizard posted:Except it's still broken for Shepard's go at it. The Keepers were reprogrammed by surviving Protheans hiding on Ilos, after the Reapers had already did what they wanted with the Citadel. The Reapers had no reason to suspect that the Keepers were reprogrammed. EDIT: In ME2, one of the sidequests involves you helping a scientist on the Citadel monitor the Keepers, resulting in him independently discovering that the Keepers had a capability of responding to an outside signal, and made use of Reapertech. This suggests to me that the occasion where the Keepers get reprogrammed is something that comes up quite regularly over the cycles. http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Chorban Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jul 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:26
|
|
|
Endorph posted:Man dude I appreciate your LP and like it but just quoting a bunch of posts and going 'bad!' like you're talking to a disobedient dog because they have a thought or opinion you disagree with has kind of soured me on this. Did you miss the giant "This is my circle-jerk! please" sign in the OP? Fangz posted:Is it plausible for the Protheans to be the *only* ones who have attempted to reprogram the Keepers? They were. It's a pretty explicitly stated plot point. I think you are missing the point here. No one is saying ME1 should have already solved the Reaper problem completely, but "a super secret weapon out of nowhere" was not the best they could have done. And the way it works and is explained doesn't make a whole lot sense even if you ignore the deus ex machina,
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:34
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Is it plausible for the Protheans to be the *only* ones who have attempted to reprogram the Keepers? Sovereign was supposed to observe and signal the Reaper fleet to activate the relay. There's no indication that his backup plan wasn't just ad libbed once plan A failed or that any previous race managed to block the Citadel attack.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:36
|
|
|
Rogue0071 posted:Sovereign was supposed to observe and signal the Reaper fleet to activate the relay. There's no indication that his backup plan wasn't just ad libbed once plan A failed or that any previous race managed to block the Citadel attack. Actually I thought there was every indication that his first attempt with the Rachni and then subsequent attempt with the Geth were both completely and totally made up on the spot because the Citadel hadn't worked properly and he didn't know why.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:38
|
|
|
BioMe posted:I think you are missing the point here. No one is saying ME1 should have already solved the Reaper problem completely, but "a super secret weapon out of nowhere" was not the best they could have done. And the way it works and is explained doesn't make a whole lot sense even if you ignore the deus ex machina, Give me... hmm... two updates' time and I'll try to explain my take on it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:40
|
|
|
Rogue0071 posted:You find out what that superweapon is in ME2 - it's a giant cannon which killed the Derelict Reaper. Which is one of the many ways described both in the codex and in the game for killing Reapers (there is literally a codex entry called "Reaper vulnerabilities" which talks about how to conventionally kill Reapers - a Dreadnought isn't enough but a few of them with Thanix cannons can be). That superweapon doesn't foreshadow the Crucible, it just makes the idea of everyone pouring their resources into it rather than building a few dozen supercannons even dumber. Exactly. ME1 and 2 showed that for all their overwhelming power, the biggest advantage the Reapers have is that they don't allow the races they exterminate any real way organize enough to fight back. They hide all evidence of their existence, seed technology for the races to copy so they become dependent on tech that can be easily neutralized, use indoctrinated sentients to divide and conquer, and start with surprise attack on the Citadel and control the Relay network so the races are completely screwed. Throughout the series we see how there were attempts to neutralize all of these to give the galaxy a faint chance the likes of which nobody has ever gotten before, but all of it was just ignored so the Reapers would pop up all at once, nearly invincible with endless armies. Now the story had to contrive some way to beat them despite all this and the writers just couldn't figure out how to do it without nonsense like the Crucible.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:47
|
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:It's really dull and bad criticism, that's why. It's predicated entirely on what somebody thinks the story should be, rather than what it is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 14:58
|
|
|
It's literally the topic I want to cover when we go get Javik two updates away
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 15:01
|
|
|
Geostomp posted:Exactly. ME1 and 2 showed that for all their overwhelming power, the biggest advantage the Reapers have is that they don't allow the races they exterminate any real way organize enough to fight back. They hide all evidence of their existence, seed technology for the races to copy so they become dependent on tech that can be easily neutralized, use indoctrinated sentients to divide and conquer, and start with surprise attack on the Citadel and control the Relay network so the races are completely screwed. Throughout the series we see how there were attempts to neutralize all of these to give the galaxy a faint chance the likes of which nobody has ever gotten before, but all of it was just ignored so the Reapers would pop up all at once, nearly invincible with endless armies. Now the story had to contrive some way to beat them despite all this and the writers just couldn't figure out how to do it without nonsense like the Crucible. Except the Prothean markers on Eden prime exist. Except they never glassed Ilos. Except the Derelict Reaper was left lying around. Except all over the galaxy there is evidence of cycles of destruction. ME1 and ME2 showed that the Reapers never rely on plans that can fail. The secrecy is an asset, the Reaper don't generally want to take losses if they don't have to. But that's far from a winning edge. Endorph posted:Yeah it's cool if you think it's dumb criticism but just explain why you dumb instead of going 'noooo' like a poster on the official bioware forums This is an LP, not an argument thread. I should probably stop posting for now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 15:02
|
|
|
Neruz posted:Actually I thought there was every indication that his first attempt with the Rachni and then subsequent attempt with the Geth were both completely and totally made up on the spot because the Citadel hadn't worked properly and he didn't know why.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 15:53
|
|
|
I view the whole crucible should be set up in ME2 argument as equivalent to changing Empire Strikes Back to foreshadow the Ewoks being able to defeat Stormtroopers. Setting up a semi-maligned/criticized element of a narrative earlier than before doesn't make the element automatically better, and it comes at the expense of the strongest part of the series. But at any rate, Lt. Danger this LP is really cool so far, and I know some specifics as to why you killed off Mordin, Legion, and Wrex based on your posts in the ME3 discussion thread (and I even agree with you on two of those three characters!), and I can't wait for you to discuss it further. Also, I love you taking the time to discuss, praise, and critique how ME3 was built gameplay wise, which is more interesting than just having the commentary be "character this, plot that" for the duration of the LP.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 16:04
|
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:It's literally the topic I want to cover when we go get Javik two updates away AKA another reason why I hate Mass Effect 3. Let's make a character who is integral to the story and then sell him as DLC! 
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 16:47
|
|
|
I'd argue that Leviathan was also crucial to the story, and if properly integrated with the full game would have resolved some of the ill feeling towards the ending. I'm actually less convinced about the necessity of Javik, he adds some history/exposition but that information doesn't change much of our understanding of the conflict or the motivations of all parties. The game was clearly made with him in mind, which is frustrating, but he's mostly fluff.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 17:08
|
|
|
Yeah, I don't recall Javik adding much besides his unique brand of rear end in a top hat (which is more important than story anyway).
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 17:12
|
|
|
Koopa Kid posted:I'd argue that Leviathan was also crucial to the story, and if properly integrated with the full game would have resolved some of the ill feeling towards the ending. The DLC was funny because it assumed people were going to replay the game again, which considering the bullshit ending, was a big gamble. It's like the DLC for DA2: why would you replay that garbage? Hell, Javil being day-one DLC is another Bioware trope (ugh), Shale in DA:O was the first time they had a day-one DLC character and then they repeated that for ME2 (Zaeed) and DA2 (Sebastian). I heard the Citadel DLC was good but gently caress giving Bioware anymore cash.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 17:35
|
|
|
To be fair, Shale and Zaeed were free to download if you bought the game brand new, and I think Javik was also free if you bought one of the ME3 special editions too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 18:05
|
|
|
Flytrap posted:Yeah, I don't recall Javik adding much besides his unique brand of rear end in a top hat (which is more important than story anyway). Javik has some amazing conversations with other characters on certain missions. The mission where you go to the Asari homeworld and check out their fancy Prothean artifacts if you take Javik and Liara along then Javik has some hilariously blunt dialogue where he basically reveals that everything the Asari thought they knew about the Protheans was wrong and Liara has a sort of ongoing moment of sad revelation. But if you don't know the correct mission\character combos to get all his conversations then you'll miss a bunch of useful stuff he has to say.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 18:11
|
|
|
And that's great, and he's a good character but that's just filler talk, it's fun and interesting but doesn't add anything to the story. Javik makes sense as a DLC character, the only issue is that he's a clear cash grab and people place more importance on him because of his background than his presence in the game really warrants.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 18:42
|
|
|
Koopa Kid posted:And that's great, and he's a good character but that's just filler talk, it's fun and interesting but doesn't add anything to the story. Javik makes sense as a DLC character, the only issue is that he's a clear cash grab and people place more importance on him because of his background than his presence in the game really warrants. With this in mind, who then is actually important other than Shepard?
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 21:26
|
|
|
I have to say that I actually miss the heavy weapons a bit. Well, more that I miss having them around? I always used them as convenient "Boss-Killers" and not much else, but the lack of them always makes me feel like I'm missing something, even if functionally they're rarely used. Of course there was only one weapon I really ended up using most of the time anyway, bless its clip-less little particle accelerator of a heart. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 22:08
|
|
|
Javik would probably feel a lot less like a pointless info dump character if he had any actual visible impact on the galaxy. He is a literal living Prothean and while he doesn't know a whole lot about their tech due to being a soldier he still has a lot of really important information locked in his head, especially for the Council races. But because he's DLC he can't have any non-superficial impact on the game so you miss out on the part where Javik takes the air out of the entire Asari species sense of superiority by revealing what the Protheans really thought about the lesser beings. He does also have some rather entertaining rear end in a top hat moments throughout the story too and gets decidedly sarcastic by the end of the game which is fun and amusing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 22:20
|
|
|
StrifeHira posted:I have to say that I actually miss the heavy weapons a bit. Well, more that I miss having them around? I always used them as convenient "Boss-Killers" and not much else, but the lack of them always makes me feel like I'm missing something, even if functionally they're rarely used. Killing the Praetorians in ME2 without the particle beam on insanity was not fun. I'm not even sure if it was possible.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 22:37
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:With this in mind, who then is actually important other than Shepard? The recurring supporting cast has real ties to the planets and cultures under siege; they have a personal history with Shepard and they're there to remind you of what's at stake and what you might lose. Without Garrus, would Palaven being under siege feel the same? They also help Shepard by acting as mediators or specialists as the plot moves along. The new human additions try their best to broaden the personal human aspect of the battle, keeping Earth in the picture even though you don't see it for most of the game. They cover a fairly broad range of nationality/sexuality as a sort of shotgun way of being relatable to whoever is playing, because otherwise we wouldn't spend any time with human culture. Similarly EDI's importance is to represent the often-sidetracked debate over AIs for reasons that become relevant later. Javik, in contrast has nothing left to lose and no real stake other than being mad. We can't relate to the loss of the Protheans because they were long gone when the series started, and Javik doesn't have time to build a history with the user in the same way others can. He's a nod to the gamers who want to see a Prothean, but he doesn't have any insight towards the main task of fighting the Reapers other than "they're bad" and his cultural status as a Prothean doesn't add to the main quest in a way that adds consequence to Shepard's actions.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 22:47
|
|
|
I didn't buy the Javik DLC and I don't feel like I missed anything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
Waltzing Along posted:Killing the Praetorians in ME2 without the particle beam on insanity was not fun. I'm not even sure if it was possible. It's possible. It just takes the extended runtime of an LOTR film to do. Hey, Lt. Danger, will we get to hear anything about the wisdom or lack thereof of designing a game with ridiculously tanky damage sponge enemies?
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 22:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 17:36 |
|
|
I agree about the Javik criticisms. I like the character and his weapon, but he was a huge waste of potential standing in the background when he should have been earth-shattering in impact.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2014 23:15
|
|