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YF-23 posted:The main way A will destroy us is not in the gameplay effects though. It's in the narrative. We will consign ourselves to being a country within the wider Chinese cultural sphere of influence, whereas right now we are one of the two leading powers in our wider cultural sphere. Right now we're Rome, one of Europe's biggest baddest guys around. If we Sinicise what will we be? We will align ourselves closer to the east than the west, and as such we will turn into little more than the butt-end of the Silk Road, just another realm at the far periphery of the Middle Kingdom's influence. It's the choice to play second fiddle to China, because even if we then somehow surpass them it will only be because we follow their tune instead of holding up on our own merits. Something like that would be a hollow victory, and compared to that a glorious defeat is vastly preferable. Yeah, but from an ooc perspective, that's an interesting story. I think OOC a rome explictly mimicking china and abandoning Europe and European culture is a fascinating one to follow, especially with the gameplay effects of westernization meaning we'll spend the next 50 years basically annoying the hell out of our own people because of that. The change from one of the big guys in one sphere to a minor if ambitious one in the Ming sphere is a really interesting story, in the same way Denmark becoming am egyptian vassal is interesting to me. It's just IC I see no possible way the roman senate would ever vote for it. The pride in their past and the recent succeses in wars just makes that choice very unlikely to me. So I'm not going to vote. I can't justify voting for A in character and I don't think B is a more interesting way for the thread to go.
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Aug 1, 2014 11:50
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| # ? May 19, 2024 09:16 |
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 I'm Changing my vote to no. For reasons many and mysterious.
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Aug 1, 2014 12:35
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Senator Samuel the 20th rises from his sarcophagus What's happening and why have we been getting our asses kicked in all these wars! Why are we abandoning our glorious past just to be some Chinese imitations? Nay! Stay true, stay strong, stay Roman! In the end it will be us, who will be superior, in the end we will outgrow them! But in the meantime we must STEAL STEAL AND STEAL from their ideas and learn to apply them ourselves, merely copying their ways and hoping for the best is a direct insult to the phariote intellect! The race for technology isn't always in the leading position, right now we are just replacing the wheels on our chariots while the Chinese ride straight to ruin!  Emperor's, god's and the people of Rome bless us! We have made it this far on our own strength, never forget our courage and intelligence!
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Aug 1, 2014 12:52
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Rome must prevail as Rome (Well Constantinople, but you get the point), not some shallow copy of Beijing. ##Vote B Also question for Rincewind/those who've played the more recent versions of the mod: Is there a decision/event chain that allows Rome to reform the Western Tech group to be on par with the Chinese one later down the line as a result of the changing nature of the world? Or will we always be at a disadvantage to the East in terms of tech no matter what unless we Sinicise?
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Aug 1, 2014 12:56
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TheMcD posted:##Vote B  The Inclusionists  Gurgen II Qutuzid I respectfully disagree, Senator Whitlock. Remember the Tri-Lingual Literacy Act, and the times in which it was proposed. Once upon a time we were just Byzantium, with a great minority of citizen with differing languages and customs and great tomes of knowledge disappearing with the simple lack of proper translations. Our ancestors fixed that, and now look at us! Arabic Turks and Orthodox Greeks walk together as brothers, and we may possibly have one of the largest Latin Catholic minorities outside of the northern lands of Scotland, Norway and Germania, not to mention the Papal State itself. This is but another step in the process. As Byzantine Rome continue to expand, which I'm afraid it will despite the best of Inclusionist efforts, we will get a new large minority within our borders: the Hui. While sure they may speak Arabic in addition to their native language, most of the texts from distant Cathay are still written in Hui. They are many in Da Qin, and I'm sure they are many in Ao Di Li as well. While both of these may be mixing with the native Arabic and German inhabitants of their respective regions we cannot deny that they are still there. And not to mention the biggest issue: We cannot do unto the Hui as we once upon a time did to the Turks. Back in the centuries past, when my eponymous ancestor Gurgen I still carried the Qutuzid robe, we waged war against the Turkish Empire. Not the Seljuk Empire, nor the Saimid Empire. My people and culture were made into the enemy, and for long we suffered as targets for the more single-minded of the Senatorial staff. But with the Tri-Lingual Literacy Act we became equals. Texts from the West and East both flooded into Constantinople. The Papists, the Orthodox and the Muslims read as brothers. Thus I propose we add to that heritage, to protect our Inclusionist ways and the Hui minorities we will surely face, by adding Hui to the now Quadri-Lingual Literacy Act. A. Sinicize! A Byzantine Rome is a Rome of many creeds! We cannot allow ourselves to sludge through the past and deny ourselves the future! The Imperial Bureaucracy Act, in which we adapted Sino methods for controlling our vassals, have already taken us half way there. Rome doesn't go stale: Rome Adapts.
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Aug 1, 2014 13:02
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Luhood posted:A Byzantine Rome is a Rome of many creeds! We cannot allow ourselves to sludge through the past and deny ourselves the future! The Imperial Bureaucracy Act, in which we adapted Sino methods for controlling our vassals, have already taken us half way there. Rome doesn't go stale: Rome Adapts. That's just it: Not only are we forsaking our many creeds, the three languages by which we advance in favour of the dictation of one as supreme over all, but we are consigning ourselves to wallow in Ming's sludge, denying ourselves our future that way. There is nothing forward-thinking about this move, nothing that will help us progress. It is regressive in the extreme, and will set back our advance decades, possibly centuries.
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Aug 1, 2014 13:08
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For the love of God, B! Do not Sinicize! The Üzüntü family has spoken against the Ming since they first fouled the Middle East with their presence so long ago and I speak against them now. We are a mighty nation, a bulwark in the east defending Europe, and I would not throw that away to mimic them like a foolish child wearing his father's robe. My family voted in favor of adopting the Chinese bureaucracy, yes, and I am not opposed to changing to fit the times or adopting Chinese ideas and technology where it would improve our own, but I will never speak in favor of throwing our national character on the sewers to become a pale imitation of another.
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Aug 1, 2014 13:10
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Cestrian posted:Yeah, but from an ooc perspective, that's an interesting story. While I see your point, at the same time (OOC), I think our Rome is also currently walking down a very interesting path on its own. Between the traditions of tolerance we've built up, the doctrine of the living saints, our straddling the edge separating west and east, compared to that I think making the decision to just drop that and align with the east is not as interesting, because right now Rome actually has something unique going on for her. Plus, as you said, it does not make sense at this juncture.
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Aug 1, 2014 13:18
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  Of Mongols and Merchants Novus Mercator Coalition A. Sinicize
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Aug 1, 2014 13:37
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Vote ##B
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Aug 1, 2014 13:38
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##Vote B! No! No, no, a THOUSAND times NO! Our defeats are hardly because we aren't Chinese enough. The technological gap is being filled. Even now our armies are adapting and performing better than they ever have. We can develop Rome as Romans and bring the future to the west in a proper Roman fashion. Not in some twisted, perverse obsession of China. I will not give up who I am, who we are, just because some of you think it's a shortcut. And if you think I'm alone in this, ask the thousands upon thousands that will rebel because of this reckless, insane idea. How, then, will it help us defeat Dai Quin when they simply take advantage of the shambles our empire will be in during such a pathetic, self deprecating change? We will be ripe for conquering to all of our enemies. If you are set on this idea, see enough reason to push it through during a more suitable and stable time.
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Aug 1, 2014 13:38
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##Vote B The amazing tech and science of the Far East is nifty indeed, but let us remember that we're carefully planted on the thin edge of the knife here. We've got the blooming Gauls at our doorstep, and we intend to change the very roots of our country here? We'd be just a feast for the vultures. Let Rome stand for what it is, and maybe, when peace reigns supreme, we shall gaze inwards.
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Aug 1, 2014 13:54
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Is this what you want senators?!
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Aug 1, 2014 14:10
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##Vote B. Now listen, I respect the Ming, or whoever it is we're talking about today, I can never keep track, but all this is going to do is get us better shooty things slightly faster, and for what? The abandonment of a thousand years of history? Admitting that we are nothing more than a tiny portion of China's influence? No, we are Rome! The great empire of the west! We will not bend to China, we will surpass them and make THEM bend to us! Also, if anyone is interested, I will be having a boat party later this evening, and anyone who votes B is invited. -Senator Samuele Romano
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Aug 1, 2014 14:24
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##Vote B. If only because that blurb about a reformed Western tech group sounds more fun.
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Aug 1, 2014 14:48
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##Vote B. Europe has proven itself able to stand up against these Ming folks, we shouldn't turn around a join them.
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Aug 1, 2014 15:15
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 ##Vote B
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Aug 1, 2014 15:21
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Samuel posted:Is this what you want senators?! Changing my vote to A.
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Aug 1, 2014 15:26
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People are most definitely forgetting that Sinicizing will bring no military benefits and it's even arguable that it will bring any tech speed benefits - seeing as 120% of normal is fine anyway, comparable to ottomans in the Vanilla game. Voting A won't bring a 'march of progress' or technology benefits or whatever nice phrase you can think of - it will turn the rest of the LP into a Chinese one, and it would be a great shame considering the narrative should focus on the fortunes of the Near West in the Chinese world. Joining said Chinese world will just be a boring yawn-o-rama where we are with the plucky 'good-guy' orientals sticking it to the Europeans - it's dumb, and there would be no way, given the previous direction of the LP, that it would make even a bit of sense. Got to say though, I've been playing through the mod as Ming, and holy hell are they overpowered in a human hands, two seperate decisions for rebuilding the Great Wall (giving way too much fort defense), as well as bonuses to tech speed and coring time makes for an absurdly powerful state - that I imagine will in the hands of the AI act as a serious challenge, if not world leader that can never be toppled. Also, really love the direction taken with the reformation in this game, very well done and believable given the makeup of the Christian world at the moment. Although sinicizing now would probably be interesting as it would give a definate narrative as to why this reformation happens etc. Anyhoo - I'm voting completely for ##Vote B
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Aug 1, 2014 16:08
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I... I think that Rome isn't done changing from the era of Douxes. This would be another step on that road. Surely we as a body should be confident enough to not lose our own heritage, our culture, our name as the one true Rome with Sinicizing. The arguments for staying Western are valid, yes, but there seems to be an air of kowtowing to Ming and the Chinese completely if we were to do this. Do they not have confidence in the power of this collective body to not simply lie back and give up? Our Government would still be Byzantine. Our people would still be Byzantine. Our way of life would still be Byzantine. We would gain the knowledge of the East, though, and with it the tools to truly succeed. ##Vote A
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Aug 1, 2014 16:19
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g12WWLmcxw0 I did not believe you could sink so low. ##VOTE B
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Aug 1, 2014 16:24
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Frozen_flame posted:Do they not have confidence in the power of this collective body to not simply lie back and give up? Our Government would still be Byzantine. Our people would still be Byzantine. Our way of life would still be Byzantine. We would gain the knowledge of the East, though, and with it the tools to truly succeed. I disagree: Rincewind posted:However, far more important than the gameplay considerations is the huge impact this will have on the narrative, and on what kind of place our Byzantine Empire is. What you vote for here will have a profound impact on the future direction of the empire, what kinds of events I mod in to throw curveballs at everyone, all the way down to how things are set up in Victoria 2. Voting for Sinicising is voting to change everything. It will be called Byzantine because Byzantine is what was there before it, but it will have nothing of what made Byzantine what Byzantine is in the past. "Byzantine" would be just an adjective, bare of any actual meaning other than to describe "that which is in Rome". Choosing to Sinicise means nothing will still be. If things changed so little this wouldn't be such an important decision.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:32
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##Vote A We need to learn kung fu.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:35
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  I must vote B. Don't in this matter. We can hardly leave the traditions of European antiquity to be carried on by the French or the Kievans. We are Roman, ours is a history measured in millennia, we must not throw that away for a momentary advantage.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:37
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## Vote B Screw China.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:37
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 Perhaps in another world, the West was victorious. Perhaps there, we would be Chinese government officials debating the matter of embracing Western ways. But this is not that world. We cannot remain trapped in a false reality where Rome is a colossus that strides the world, those times are long since past. If the crowned heads of Europe will deny us our right and hold us back in their petty feuds, then I see no reason to remain so entangled with Western affairs. We've always had an Asian half, anyway. ##Vote A / 
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Aug 1, 2014 16:39
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YF-23 posted:stuff Yeah, this is why it doesn't really make all that much sense to sinicize. Mechanically speaking, Rome would suffer decades of unrest for little-to-no gain, and story-wise it is really out of character. The empire has just emerged, successfully I might add, from a serious and comprehensive reform of every aspect of government. I usually can't be bothered to participate all that much in this kind of thread, because I love seeing what kind of horrible messes goons get themselves into, but in this case I think sinicizing would be a bad idea. There's no real mechanical gain, and no real "RP" justification.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:41
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When in Rome... Vote B
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Aug 1, 2014 16:41
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##Vote B Rome is Rome, and has always been Rome. China is China, and has always been China. Rome shall always be Rome, China shall always be China.
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Aug 1, 2014 16:45
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inscrutable horse posted:Yeah, this is why it doesn't really make all that much sense to sinicize. Mechanically speaking, Rome would suffer decades of unrest for little-to-no gain, and story-wise it is really out of character. The empire has just emerged, successfully I might add, from a serious and comprehensive reform of every aspect of government. Most players can keep up with mil tech by prioritising it but the 20% off tech costs will make a huge difference to rome's admin and diplo techs. Which will make rome generally richer and better developed. I mean, as of now we can't even build temples. It's not a huge mechanical gain, certainly I think the main reason to vote to sinicize is because it will make an interesting narrative, but there is one.
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Aug 1, 2014 17:00
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To be honest, I really wasn't expecting that Sinicize button to light up so early in the game and most of my vague plans for the possibility of Sinicizing were all late game stuff about approaching V2. But when I saw the little banner pop up after I frittered away all of my Admin points coring Italian provinces and buying humanist ideas the temptation to just have a vote on it was fairly overwhelming. Hopefully it's an exciting opportunity to decide on the future direction of the LP! As opposed to a shining opportunity to ruin everything, ever. It's important to note that voting down Sinicization isn't necessarily damning us to irrelevancy or whatever. Europe is not the bright center of the universe in ByzLP, but it's also not the sort of whirling trash vortex of a continent it is over in, say, Flamboyant Schemers. And also, we're between Europe and the Middle East anyway-- the West isn't the only cultural tradition the Roman Empire is based on, even if our tech icon wears a little tricorn hat.  So a vote for B isn't necessarily reactionary or xenophobic (although it might be-- hi, Lord Cyrahzax)-- it could also be construed as sticking up for the existing cultural minorities in the empire.By the same token, a vote to Sinicize isn't necessarily a vote to throw our entire history and culture in the trash can and become Ming China in the West. For one thing, our main influences would be the Hui-Turkish-Arabic-Persian-Andalusian-German-Spanish-etc. cultural melting pots near us, like Yilang, Ao Di Li, Da Qin, et al. But also, I'd say that what emerged on the other side of, say, the Meiji Restoration, while hugely transformed, was still recognizable as Japan. This would be a hugely different process for hugely different reasons in a hugely different time period, but I feel like that aspect would be comparable. Anyway:  Patter Song mcclay LJN92 StrifeHira WilliamAnderson Akratic Method RZApublican GSD Night10194 Ghetto Prince Caustic Soda LordGugs Rubix Squid Meinberg Horsebanger Luhood Blackunknown Frozen_flame Sindai Raserys Total: 20 sniper4625 Lord Cyrahzax Mantis42 AJ_Impy inscrutable horse Tevery Best Hitlers Gay Secret Dire Wombat YF-23 TheMcD Flesnolk Kor NewMars Samuel BwenGun WeaponGradeSadness HiHo ChiRho Vagon Sparq Pyroi Erwin the German Aeromancia Technowolf ZearothK Gnooble Beerdeer Sky Shadowing Total: 27
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Aug 1, 2014 17:11
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Cestrian posted:Most players can keep up with mil tech by prioritising it but the 20% off tech costs will make a huge difference to rome's admin and diplo techs. Which will make rome generally richer and better developed. I mean, as of now we can't even build temples. We would have been able to do that just fine if we'd been keeping up with Admin tech instead of leaving it in the dust. I suppose it would have been helpful if we had a party that was about staying on the bleeding edge of technological innovation that would yell at the Empress about neglecting administrative technology and focusing instead on conquering every province on the coast of the Adriatic, or about spending frivolous amounts of diplomatic power on annexing our vassals instead of keeping our diplomatic technology competitive. Alas.
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Aug 1, 2014 17:12
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It doesn't help that she's ADM 1 / DIP 1 / MIL 5. There's a lot more MIL points to go around!
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Aug 1, 2014 17:13
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Samuel posted:Is this what you want senators?! Not gonna lie, that looks pretty drat cool. Badass painting of an eagle with the banner of the Old Romans above it, a picture of Constantine and the symbol of Constantinople on the right. So, yes. Hell yes. YF-23 posted:I disagree: Yes, it will change. But remember what Byzantine means, as the late Emperor Hugh laid out before us quite some time ago. Openness, fairness, and equality for all. Our Roman Empire will be Byzantine, will still be Byzantine, and will be Byzantine made better. Following in the technological footsteps of China does not mean throwing that away, it means bringing that up to the same footing as China, but still being uniquely Roman and uniquely Byzantine. I say again, will the statues of Augustus crumble, will every copy of the Alexiad burn, will the Hagia Sophia come crashing down because we choose to advance? No. Rome will be Rome, and the decision now to catch up to China's technological progress will not change this.
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Aug 1, 2014 17:20
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##Vote B
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Aug 1, 2014 17:26
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StrifeHira posted:Not gonna lie, that looks pretty drat cool. Badass painting of an eagle with the banner of the Old Romans above it, a picture of Constantine and the symbol of Constantinople on the right. So, yes. Hell yes. How cavalier you are! The decades of strife, the righteous rebellion of the people of the Empire, the likely thousands upon thousands of dead...none of these matter? You embrace progress at all costs, but progress is not virtuous in and of itself. We are surrounded by enemies, rebuilding from terrible wars, and already struggling to keep up in many areas. Dedicating all the resources of the state to a foolish desire to ape the Ming will only see us fall further behind. No, as many others have said, we should be developing our own scholastic tradition, our own culture, our own Rome! I do not oppose (prudent) progress, but it must be done on our own terms, in our own way. That is how we have done it for centuries!
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Aug 1, 2014 17:27
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##Vote B I just want to point out that even though they're the big bad neighbor, even the Chinese(Da Qin) want to be Rome.
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Aug 1, 2014 17:30
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##Vote A
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Aug 1, 2014 17:39
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##Vote B
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Aug 1, 2014 17:41
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| # ? May 19, 2024 09:16 |
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Developing a "distinctly near-western" nation sounds more interesting for the Byzantine Empire LP than turning into yet another European sequel to China. There's already like a half dozen of them. And we already have a Confucian bureaucracy with little dragon symbols in the game interface, that seems like enough.
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Aug 1, 2014 17:43
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