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I just call myself a software developer. My passion is in software architecture but I work in a cushy 8 - 5 job for a small healthcare company. I might call myself an architect if I built operating systems instead of apps to help physicians. I lean very left and can only think of three people I have interacted with in my short career who were stupidly libertarian. I'm sure the thread has touched on it, but without robust licensing and certification, unionization would be impossible. Not to mention I consider myself perfectly capable of negotiating my own benefits and compensation based on my needs. That's my story.
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Aug 1, 2014 19:47
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Dirk Pitt posted:I'm sure the thread has touched on it, but without robust licensing and certification, unionization would be impossible. Not to mention I consider myself perfectly capable of negotiating my own benefits and compensation based on my needs. What do you think makes software programming different from the myriad professional and technical fields that are unionized?
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Aug 1, 2014 20:01
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Alien Arcana posted:It's offered as a BA because of its association with logic and philosophy, and it's offered as a BS because of its association with science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_mathematics Hell, geometry is one of the precursors of mathematics - and it started from philosophers drawing shapes, playing with them and observing results. Take a look at this proof of Pythagorean theorem and tell me this is not an experiment when someone tried to validate a hypothesis by cutting away triangles from a square.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:02
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Gantolandon posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_mathematics Experimentation != scientific method. Notice the wiki article you linked doesn't call experimental math science, which is the whole point. When I try dipping chocolate into queso isn't not science just tasty.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:08
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Trabisnikof posted:What do you think makes software programming different from the myriad professional and technical fields that are unionized? Why do I need a union so that I can write software? I don't understand what it would bring to me. If I was building bridges, treating people's medical conditions, representing them in a legal matter, or even fixing their electrical poo poo, I could understand why the public would benefit from a union or professional certification. All I do is sit at a desk and think for a few hours before writing code to help people do their jobs. Believe it or not I am pro-union, but it does not make sense to me why I should join one or where the benefit to me and my career would be.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:16
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Dirk Pitt posted:Why do I need a union so that I can write software? I don't understand what it would bring to me. If I was building bridges, treating people's medical conditions, representing them in a legal matter, or even fixing their electrical poo poo, I could understand why the public would benefit from a union or professional certification. All I do is sit at a desk and think for a few hours before writing code to help people do their jobs. Believe it or not I am pro-union, but it does not make sense to me why I should join one or where the benefit to me and my career would be. Well a union would have likely prevented the illegal cartel to depress wages in Silicon Valley. Also a union provides protections against management acting unfairly or illegaly and can fight for better wages and benefits. No what were the reasons Unions wouldn't work again?
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Aug 1, 2014 20:20
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Trabisnikof posted:Experimentation != scientific method. Notice the wiki article you linked doesn't call experimental math science, which is the whole point. OK, here are the four essential elements of the scientific method: quote:Characterizations (observations,[55] definitions, and measurements of the subject of inquiry) Can you tell me which of these elements does the Pythagorean theorem and its proof lack?
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Aug 1, 2014 20:27
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Trabisnikof posted:Well a union would have likely prevented the illegal cartel to depress wages in Silicon Valley. California's labor laws should prevent this. Though I am not sure agreeing to pay developers at prestigious firms 'x' is illegal. Otherwise companies agreeing not to poach talent (even outside of Silicon Valley and software this happens) would be illegal. But I know from first-hand experience that it happens. quote:Also a union provides protections against management acting unfairly or illegaly and can fight for better wages and benefits. I can fight for my own benefits and wages, I am talented enough that if I don't want to work somewhere over petty poo poo, then I pack my poo poo and leave. Seriously, leaving a job is easy if you are even a slightly skilled developer. quote:No what were the reasons Unions wouldn't work again? I am just laughing at the enterprises I have worked for that are not software firms trying to start a software shop but getting picketed. Why in the world would we make it harder to have high paying jobs? *CEO* I have an idea that would automate some of our processes and make us millions of dollars, let's hire 10 developers at $65k to $120k in this flyover state to crank this out *CIO* Sounds good, I'll get the paper work started with the Tulsa chapter of the Software Development Guild and maybe we can get cracking at the end of next quarter if other companies aren't already ahead of us in their paperwork. *CEO* Never mind, let's just issue a dividend to our shareholders instead. Dirk Pitt fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 20:28
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Dirk Pitt posted:California's labor laws should prevent this. Though I am not sure agreeing to pay developers at prestigious firms 'x' is illegal. Otherwise companies agreeing not to poach talent (even outside of Silicon Valley and software this happens) would be illegal. But I know from first-hand experience that it happens. Ok so you're just making strawman attacks against unions without actually being able to claim something particular about software development that makes it impossible to unionize as you originally claimed. Yet you claim to be pro-union, got it.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:32
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Stanos posted:I think 200k is lofty depending on where you live too. My dad's been working at UPS as a driver for 24 years and my mom's a nurse and they are at like 135k. This is in St. Louis so the cost of living is lower than the average. On the coast near NYC or California, yea sure. Otherwise, eeeehhhhhh. I agree, but the original assertion was that 200k wasn't much for a single earner and if it's not I'd sure like to learn how to go about topping it. edit: considering the 1% doesn't even start until nearly 400k, is the assertion that one out of every hundred people own a business and/or are in finance?
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Aug 1, 2014 20:34
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Gantolandon posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_mathematics That's not a scientific experiment, it's just a demonstration. The proof of the Pythagorean theorem must come, like any other theorem, from a chain of logical deductions starting with some set of axioms. Yes, trial and error are often highly useful tools in constructing a proof; but once the proof has been found, it stands alone, and the false starts can be discarded. In contrast, in scientific fields the experiments are the proof (or rather the evidence, since science doesn't deal in hard proof).
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Aug 1, 2014 20:35
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Trabisnikof posted:Ok so you're just making strawman attacks against unions without actually being able to claim something particular about software development that makes it impossible to unionize as you originally claimed. Yet you claim to be pro-union, got it. You're going to have to explain the benefits and implementation of unionization for me to get on board in this instance. Solidarity with fast food works, I understand. As an industry insider, I simply cannot see how it would work nation and industry-wide.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:35
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Dirk Pitt posted:You're going to have to explain the benefits and implementation of unionization for me to get on board in this instance. Solidarity with fast food works, I understand. As an industry insider, I simply cannot see how it would work nation and industry-wide. I've explained to you the basics of why unionization benefits workers. You replied with some trope about how unions make hiring new workers impossible. Unions come in many forms and likely whatever stereotype of unions you have in your head isn't the way that a professional union works. We have union programmers, union designers, union technicians and union engineers. What about software programming makes it different? As an industry insider, I simply cannot see a reason unions for software developers couldn't work in the United States. Obviously won't happen because of anti-union sentiment but there's nothing special about software that makes it different than other workplaces.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:43
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Alien Arcana posted:That's not a scientific experiment, it's just a demonstration. The proof of the Pythagorean theorem must come, like any other theorem, from a chain of logical deductions starting with some set of axioms. Yes, trial and error are often highly useful tools in constructing a proof; but once the proof has been found, it stands alone, and the false starts can be discarded. In contrast, in scientific fields the experiments are the proof (or rather the evidence, since science doesn't deal in hard proof). Fair enough.
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Aug 1, 2014 21:00
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Trabisnikof posted:I've explained to you the basics of why unionization benefits workers. You replied with some trope about how unions make hiring new workers impossible. Unions come in many forms and likely whatever stereotype of unions you have in your head isn't the way that a professional union works. We have union programmers, union designers, union technicians and union engineers. What about software programming makes it different? Your basics of union benfits were things that should be preventable with a robust and enforced labor laws. Like I said, I don't even know if wage fixing is illegal, it is certainly lovely, but unsure if it is illegal here in the United States. It's almost like things that work in some countries or parts of the world, don't work in others.
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Aug 1, 2014 21:10
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Dirk Pitt posted:Your basics of union benfits were things that should be preventable with a robust and enforced labor laws. Like I said, I don't even know if wage fixing is illegal, it is certainly lovely, but unsure if it is illegal here in the United States. It's almost like things that work in some countries or parts of the world, don't work in others. Under robust and enforced labor laws wage fixing would be illegal. That's like a basic thing to make illegal.
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Aug 1, 2014 21:19
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computer parts posted:Under robust and enforced labor laws wage fixing would be illegal. That's like a basic thing to make illegal. 
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Aug 1, 2014 21:20
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Dirk Pitt posted:Your basics of union benfits were things that should be preventable with a robust and enforced labor laws. Like I said, I don't even know if wage fixing is illegal, it is certainly lovely, but unsure if it is illegal here in the United States. It's almost like things that work in some countries or parts of the world, don't work in others. Unions serve the purpose of pushing for robust and enforced labor laws and trying to prevent bullshit business practices. With the price fixing thing, a Union can take the government to task more effectively than any individual for this not being illegal if it isn't, or pushing for proper enforcement if it is.
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Aug 1, 2014 21:21
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Dirk Pitt posted:Your basics of union benfits were things that should be preventable with a robust and enforced labor laws. Like I said, I don't even know if wage fixing is illegal, it is certainly lovely, but unsure if it is illegal here in the United States. It's almost like things that work in some countries or parts of the world, don't work in others. Your ignoring half of what I said (the parts about the union getting you a better deal) but yes, if we had perfect labor laws and perfect enforcement we wouldn't have as much need for unions. So you admit there's nothing special about software development that makes it impossible to unionize, but instead you just think it shouldn't be unionized?
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Aug 1, 2014 21:23
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Dirk Pitt posted:California's labor laws should prevent this. Though I am not sure agreeing to pay developers at prestigious firms 'x' is illegal. Otherwise companies agreeing not to poach talent (even outside of Silicon Valley and software this happens) would be illegal. But I know from first-hand experience that it happens. Does it not occur to you that "agreeing to pay developers at prestigious firms 'x'" should be made illegal and since it isn't, unionising would make it easier for developers to band together and say "no gently caress that poo poo". Also "I can fight for my own benefits and wages". Think of a union as an insurance policy for when you can't.
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Aug 1, 2014 21:25
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Software developing as an industry almost seems too broad and too varied for one union to help out everyone, or even most people. Between SAs, DBAs, programmers, architects, etc, who would be covered? Anyone that uses a terminal? I think you have to start small and be specific. For example, Game Developers definitely need a union. The poo poo that happens over there is criminal. I know some EA employees who's studio was shut down, decided to transfer to another one, and then that one got shut down. And very little severance. There is a very tangible set of things that need to be fixed there.
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Aug 1, 2014 21:28
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Trabisnikof posted:Your ignoring half of what I said (the parts about the union getting you a better deal) but yes, if we had perfect labor laws and perfect enforcement we wouldn't have as much need for unions. I don't buy this. Sure it's possible, but definitely not a guarantee. I'd rather just go it my own on my compensation and leave the middle-man out. Then again I am a decent developer in a market full of idiots. quote:So you admit there's nothing special about software development that makes it impossible to unionize, but instead you just think it shouldn't be unionized? Not really, I simply don't see why a union would benefit software developers or how it would even be implemented from a practical standpoint. Maybe that alone makes software development a trade that isn't worth unionizing. It is great to say it would work, now explain how you would make it work. I am waiting for this pitch. I think there were a few other developers asking the same in this very thread. Dirk Pitt fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 21:35
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The Writer's Guild of America and the Screen Actors Guild both provide a model for how fast moving industries utilizing both independent contractor and in-house labor, in businesses that form and collapse quickly, can have labor be supported by a strong and useful union. One of the biggest utilities of a Programmers Union would be supporting a set of lawyers who could square off against Apple, Cisco, Google, etc, forcing employers out of a wage-depressing cartel situation and preventing the routine overtime and out of worktime contact abuses programmers have been conditioned to think of as normal and acceptable. Besides just artificially, cartel-suppressed wages, the tech industry is the only place I've ever heard people say poo poo like "work life balance is fine, you can get everything done in just 60 hours a week." Or paying people for a theoretical 40 hours a week and then expecting both 10 hours on top of that, and feeling free to call the employee over the weekend. That is completely hosed. Just because people are being well-paid doesn't mean they shouldn't be better paid, and in no case is the way tech workers get routinely treated acceptable to anyone but young unmarried people who don't know any better. Best Friends fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 22:43
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I couldn't imagine going on strike because developers at Facebook are upset they didn't get free dinners in their new corporate headquarters. Just like I wouldn't expect them to go on strike because I didn't get 100% of my target bonus in bum gently caress Oklahoma due to the corporation not meeting goals. Edit: I just leave when places don't give me the benefits I deserve, just like Facebook and Google engineers do. Dirk Pitt fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 22:58
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Dirk Pitt posted:I couldn't imagine going on strike because developers at Facebook are upset they didn't get free dinners in their new corporate headquarters. Just like I wouldn't expect them to go on strike because I didn't get 100% of my target bonus in bum gently caress Oklahoma due to the corporation not meeting goals. Holy poo poo you don't know how unions work.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:03
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Strikes are just one thing unions can do, having expensive law firms on file and having politicians care about your issues is another. But yeah like you demonstrate this isn't likely to occur because most of labor thinks they're coming out ahead getting paid a job and a half for doing two jobs worth of labor. Score!
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Aug 1, 2014 23:05
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It's hard to pick the most hilarious part of this thread, but the recurring "I'm totally pro-union but will argue tooth and nail against unionization where it it relevant to me" theme is close. To be fair, the complete irrelevance of the thread title to reality and the thread itself is a strong contender. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 23:05
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Best Friends posted:Strikes are just one thing unions can do, having expensive law firms on file and having politicians care about your issues is another. But yeah like you demonstrate this isn't likely to occur because most of labor thinks they're coming out ahead getting paid a job and a half for doing two jobs worth of labor. Score! Also, when the UAW strikes at GM they don't strike at Ford too. Besides strikes are approved by locals anyway.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:07
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Best Friends posted:Strikes are just one thing unions can do, having expensive law firms on file and having politicians care about your issues is another. But yeah like you demonstrate this isn't likely to occur because most of labor thinks they're coming out ahead getting paid a job and a half for doing two jobs worth of labor. Score! I just left a sweat shop with a lot of benefits and poo poo pay for a place with basic benefits and awesome pay and only 40 hours a week. If you are a software engineer, you should too. Hodgepodge posted:It's hard to pick the most hilarious part of this thread, but the "I'm totally pro-union but will argue tooth and nail against unionization where it it relevant to me" is close. The best part is people with no grasp of how the industry works( in America at least) telling us that we should unionize for reasons. That and literally every person here saying they are progressive.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:14
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Aug 1, 2014 23:16
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Hodgepodge posted:It's hard to pick the most hilarious part of this thread, but the "I'm totally pro-union but will argue tooth and nail against unionization where it it relevant to me" is close. I'm a former union organizer and organizing white collar locals is about as easy as herding cats. People might be sympathetic but they think unions are just for blue collar guys with lunch pails or poor people, when they would stand the to benefit handsomely from unions (no more unpaid overtime is a big one, boeing's SPEEA guys put pressure on the rest of their engineering departments so everyone (even the former mcdonnell people in st louis) regardless of bargaining unit status gets OT pay after working more than 80 hrs over a 2 week period. Consider that to other engineering places in Missouri where people are expected to put in 10 hour days routinely or their coworkers give them poo poo for slacking. Another big thing, especially with software development, is age discrimination. Bargaining unit developers would not be so easily laid off or fired arbitrarily so management can replace them with cheap and naieve kids right out of college. Anyway dirk pitt is a huge retard or concern trolling because anyone can google the steps to form a union at work: 1. Contact an organizer 2. Collect sigs for an election petition 3. Election campaign (enjoy the bloodbath and captive propaganda from management) 4. Vote 5. If the vote succeeds, then on to the contract campaign for the first CBA. 6. Vote on new contract 7. profit!!!!
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Aug 1, 2014 23:17
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Computer people that I know who are unionized by dint of working for a state agency all seem to have better benefits, vacation time, and retirement packages than the non-Union ones. Less foosball tables and office kegs though. Tough call.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:18
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uncurable mlady posted:Computer people that I know who are unionized by dint of working for a state agency all seem to have better benefits, vacation time, and retirement packages than the non-Union ones. Also poo poo for pay.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:21
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Dirk Pitt posted:Also poo poo for pay. No, they actually make very competitive salaries compared to cost of living in the area. 
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Aug 1, 2014 23:28
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Dirk Pitt posted:I just left a sweat shop with a lot of benefits and poo poo pay for a place with basic benefits and awesome pay and only 40 hours a week. If you are a software engineer, you should too. I can't claim to be an expert (on either your field or unions), but you seem to have little knowledge of unions beyond a collection of anti-union tropes that you seem to think haven't been deployed against every union ever. The result is definitely hilarious. E: the best analogy I can think of is someone who thinks that they are pro-democracy because they think it's great in other countries, but their own really needs a strong dictator/single-party system for ~reasons~. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 23:33
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uncurable mlady posted:No, they actually make very competitive salaries compared to cost of living in the area. Good for them then. I know in Oklahoma that make about half what I make now, but hey no expectations. I am still waiting for an absolutely compelling reason software developers as a trade should unionize. *because unions isn't good enough for me* and again, I am very left leaning.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:35
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Peven Stan posted:anyone can google the steps to form a union at work: Made some slight modifications to reflect the reality of whatever poor brave bastards first start the process.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:36
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^^^ Obama's NLRB is fairly sympathetic to labor filing charges when it comes to corporate retaliation. These days if you're willing to stick it out you can probably get a settlement from the company, but not your job back.Dirk Pitt posted:Good for them then. I know in Oklahoma that make about half what I make now, but hey no expectations. quote:People might be sympathetic but they think unions are just for blue collar guys with lunch pails or poor people, when they would stand the to benefit handsomely from unions (no more unpaid overtime is a big one, boeing's SPEEA guys put pressure on the rest of their engineering departments so everyone (even the former mcdonnell people in st louis) regardless of bargaining unit status gets OT pay after working more than 80 hrs over a 2 week period. Consider that to other engineering places in Missouri where people are expected to put in 10 hour days routinely or their coworkers give them poo poo for slacking.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:36
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Best Friends posted:The Writer's Guild of America and the Screen Actors Guild both provide a model for how fast moving industries utilizing both independent contractor and in-house labor, in businesses that form and collapse quickly, can have labor be supported by a strong and useful union. Everything aside a guild might actually be of benefit for employers because the guild can take on at least some of the task of certificating developers as competent instead of leaving it up to company's HR department to do it. I also think a master-apprentice system would also be a great way of training new developers, and could be one of the services a guild could provide to its members. Something between SAG and an engineering professional association might be an actual viable model (if wages ever tanks anyway) Hodgepodge posted:It's hard to pick the most hilarious part of this thread, but the recurring "I'm totally pro-union but will argue tooth and nail against unionization where it it relevant to me" theme is close. Nah, the actual hilarious part of it is from what I can tell the pro-union side of the thread with the exception of like 1 person aren't actually in unions irl either and are blasting other people for not being in unions. Go internet Typo fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Aug 2, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 23:55
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Hodgepodge posted:It's hard to pick the most hilarious part of this thread, but the recurring "I'm totally pro-union but will argue tooth and nail against unionization where it it relevant to me" theme is close. If you want to learn why this is, it's all in Disciplined Minds. A brief summary: professionals are quite liberal (pro civil rights, pro gay marriage, etc) on distant issues, non-professionals are liberal on immediate issues (war drafts, worker rights, edit add: trust in democracy). On issues that might conflict with the ideology of their organization, professionals lose their backbone, and non-professionals gain one. Why: well, most non-professional workers are under constant surveillance, and have their time micromanaged, which obviously generates distrust. Professionals aren't, because a proceduralized workday would conflict with the novel, creative work they're hired to do. So how do you keep professionals on task? Basically, you make them show ideological commitment to the organization. Then you don't have to watch them- they're self-policed. The book goes into detail about how this ideological commitment gets embedded and how bosses ask for it to be demonstrated. The end result is, professionals range from the non-political (read: still live out the ideology of their organization 8 hours a day) to Ayn Rand devotees. Mofabio fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Aug 2, 2014 |
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Aug 2, 2014 00:11
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