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Lord Windy posted:You've been talking about this for awhile. Are you calling the government of Ukraine fascists and/or Nazi's or what? I know you don't speak english well, but could you try to explain your point? Ukrain has political party " Freedom"( Свобода). It is Nazi party. In the goverment of Ukraina there are people from this party. I think, i can say that they are fascists. They talk to take weapon and to kill germany people, russian people and Jews. People from vidio quote speech of party " Freedom". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29 utjkju fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Aug 1, 2014 |
# ? Aug 1, 2014 12:33 |
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# ? May 21, 2024 16:14 |
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Dude, I'm sorry. Sorry the USA is so kewl! We made: Electric guitars Cornbread Stylish sunglasses We have: Mission Accomplished Rocked the Casbah Not Had These Colors Run Sorry, dude, I can't hear you over the sound of my freedom.
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 12:41 |
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:Dude, I'm sorry. Sorry the USA is so kewl! Actual post: It's actually quite offensive that you talk so much about the Ukrainians killing Jews. The last thing us Jews need is more Russians trying to save us. Many Jewish populations in the world are made up of ex-Russians scared of going back.
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 12:44 |
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:Actual post: Ukrain people talk about Jews. Russian people save russian people, who fascists wish to kill. utjkju fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Aug 1, 2014 |
# ? Aug 1, 2014 13:01 |
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utjkju posted:West World and USA tell that Putin supports separatists. And West World and USA demand to end support. The interesting thing about the separatists is that they used to not be separatists. They used to support federalization, for greater autonomy of every region within a unified Ukraine. It was Poroshenko that was rabidly against the idea. Edit: for people that insist Russia is smuggling arms into the Ukraine: post-Soviet ammunition used in the conflict is Ukrainian in origin Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Aug 1, 2014 |
# ? Aug 1, 2014 13:58 |
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You're a nice enough guy, utjkju, and I don't think we're going to agree on this topic. It's not my prerogative to tell you what to think, I don't want to end up with each of us shouting each other down. Anyone hear about the mass grave they unearthed in Donetsk?
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 15:07 |
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:You're a nice enough guy, utjkju, and I don't think we're going to agree on this topic. Ok. Many people from Germany and other country tell about fascism in Ukraina. I think that It is very important.
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 15:30 |
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I posted this in the Debate Disco thread, so going to quote it here too for perspective:quote:For anyone reading this thread, you may be wondering what exactly the average Russian believes is happening in this conflict. Well, I've been watching their news and political talk shows, and reading their newspapers, so I'm going to tell you.
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 19:24 |
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IATA chief executive Tony Tyler attended the meeting on Tuesday on behalf of his group’s airline members, which include Qantas and Virgin Australia Holdings. Mr Tyler said there was no escaping that what happened to MH17, which was shot down by a surface-to-air missile over eastern Ukraine, should not have happened. “It exposed a gap in the system,” he said. “The system is not broken. It works extremely well in the vast majority of cases. And the proof of that is clearly evident in that air transport is the safest mode of global mass transit known to humankind. So the challenge is to close the specific gap or gaps that allowed this tragedy to happen.” In the case of MH17, Ukraine had advised its airspace was safe for travel above 32,000 feet, but the aircraft was shot down when flying at 33,000 feet. Mr Tyler said it was essential that airlines received clear guidance regarding threats to their passengers, crew and aircraft. “This is the responsibility of states,” he said. “There are no excuses. Even sensitive information can be sanitised in a way that ensures airlines get essential and actionable information without compromising methods or sources.” Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/avia...l#ixzz39AM4dXUH
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 19:33 |
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Present posted:words
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 19:33 |
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About MH17 (english): https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/ http://rt.com/news/177000-mh17-site-ukraine-experts/
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 19:59 |
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is about right, given the whole 'woefully unprepared' report that came out regarding NATO's preparedness. It especially mentioned Russia's strengths in the use of propaganda and misinformation to muddy the waters, or at least make things vague enough that nobody feels they're on solid ground to intervene. Also its skill in leveraging and supporting existing dissidents/poor victimised militias.
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 20:15 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF6XosFM3Ng Andreas Popp @ Monday Demonstration ENGLISH SUBTITLES
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# ? Aug 1, 2014 20:26 |
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Maybe I'm missing something but if Russia isn't supporting the separatists then why are the seperatists led by people like Igor Girkin and Alexander Borodai, who are Russian citizens from Moscow? Or did the western media invent these people?
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 00:51 |
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Earwicker posted:Maybe I'm missing something but if Russia isn't supporting the separatists then why are the seperatists led by people like Igor Girkin and Alexander Borodai, who are Russian citizens from Moscow? Or did the western media invent these people? Girkin, Boroday, Strelkov are real people. I wrote in this thread about connection between people from Russia and people from East Ukraina. Government of Russia did not send these people in Ukraine. Support separatists by Girkin, Boroday, Strelkov is wish by only Girkin, Boroday, Strelkov. For example,real man from Australia (Simeon Boykov) militates in part of separatists. Australia is supporting the separatists?
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 03:55 |
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MH17. English. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eiu2s-8MRJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhqVdybvAFY
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 06:22 |
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utjkju posted:Girkin, Boroday, Strelkov are real people. I wrote in this thread about connection between people from Russia and people from East Ukraina. Borodai is not just a random militia member, he's the prime minister of the declared independent state of Donetsk. Girkin is also in a leadership position, and on top of that he has admitted to having been an FSB officer for almost 20 years and retired very recently. I'm not familiar with Boykov, but if someone with a 20 year career in the Australian intelligence service suddenly popped up as a military leader or prime minister in a secessionist part of Ukraine, yes I think it would be reasonable to suspect Australia of supporting them. edit: I found the story on Boykov and he's a random Australian of Cossack descent who went over there to be a soldier, and he has no ties to Australia's government. That's not exactly comparable to becoming the prime minister of a seceding republic or a military commander of one of the main separatist factions, which is what Borodai and Girkin are doing. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Aug 2, 2014 |
# ? Aug 2, 2014 07:48 |
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utjkju posted:Ok. Many people from Germany and other country tell about fascism in Ukraina. I think that It is very important. I cannot speak for other countries, but I can tell you that no, many people from Germany do not tell about facism in Ukraina. You've linked several videos about small-time demonstrations here, mostly from the recent past, all with basically the same SHEEPLE!!-message and a decent helping of , but this simply isn't representative of what the average german person thinks, especially not with the current conflict in mind. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that germans don't know about Svoboda holding seats in the government, this is absolutely something that was reported on in the past (despite most of the -videos tell you that the oppressive mainstream media don't want you to know this) with regard to instability in Ukraine. In general, the prospect of fascists or hardline-nationalists gaining power in the governments of other countries simply isn't something that's omitted in german media. The reason that noone is talking about Svoboda NOW has nothing to do with supervillain-controlled massmedia feeding you lies, it's the fact that when an airliner gets knocked out of the sky by an anti-aircraft missile, nobody is reacting with "Well, Ukraine does have fascist members of Svoboda in their government. Russia was right, Ukraine was wrong, end of story.". utjkju posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF6XosFM3Ng I've done you the courtesy of sitting through 24 minutes of this and while I hadn't previously heard about Andreas Popp outside of his talks about the global financial crisis, this speech is basically nothing but platitudes, tinfoil-hat garbage and generic OPEN YOUR EYES, TURN OFF YOUR TV, UNPLUG YOURSELVES FROM THE MATRIX (he literally says that last part). He's absolutely correct in mentioning that there's corruption, conflict-of-interest and pressure in journalism/media, but then he goes off the deep end in saying that it's all a conspiracy and that only him and his enlightened followers that have done away with the lies fed to them by their former parties are able to see the truth. And his solution is for everyone to turn off the TV for a month and not vote anymore.
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 10:38 |
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Earwicker posted:Borodai is not just a random militia member, he's the prime minister of the declared independent state of Donetsk. Girkin is also in a leadership position, and on top of that he has admitted to having been an FSB officer for almost 20 years and retired very recently. In Russia there are many people who work in FSB. It is normal. Girking is in a leadership position because he has specific knowledges. If a man works in FSB it is don't mean that he has contact with Putin. But there is one moment. In Russia some people are boosting the wave of hatred to the government becauce Putin don't help Djnetsk. It is bad. Bolotnay 2 may be... For example:
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 11:13 |
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Duzzy Funlop posted:I cannot speak for other countries, but I can tell you that no, many people from Germany do not tell about facism in Ukraina. You've linked several videos about small-time demonstrations here, mostly from the recent past, all with basically the same SHEEPLE!!-message and a decent helping of , but this simply isn't representative of what the average german person thinks, especially not with the current conflict in mind. If you from Germany you know about speech of Gregor Gizi? What you can say about it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLZ3gYLDOqU
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 11:24 |
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utjkju posted:If you from Germany you know about speech of Gregor Gizi? Bunch of points he mentions:
While some of his points stand to reason, the majority of his speech is basically "Yeah, Russia is doing a naughty, but chill out, NATO also did a naughty in the past", which isn't exactly a valid point in an argument over how to fix a conflict. Comparing Crimea to Kosovo is also pretty dumb, but this seems to be a popular comparison among the current talking points. You need to keep in mind that this speech is from early march, so it's pretty misleading by whichever movements are currently mass-translating pro-russian speeches by german politicians/comedians/etc. to include it in the current argument and go "SEE? GERMANY IS ON OUR SIDE."
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 12:54 |
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utjkju posted:In Russia there are many people who work in FSB. It is normal. So are you telling me that, if an American citizen showed up as the military leader of a group of separatist rebels in, say, Panama and this American had been a CIA agent for 20 years, you wouldn't suspect the US of involvement? After all, lots of people work for the CIA and most of them don't personally know Obama. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Aug 2, 2014 |
# ? Aug 2, 2014 16:15 |
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Earwicker posted:So are you telling me that, if an American citizen showed up as the military leader of a group of separatist rebels in, say, Panama and this American had been a CIA agent for 20 years, you wouldn't suspect the US of involvement? After all, lots of people work for the CIA and most of them don't personally know Obama. Brilliant point.
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 17:54 |
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Earwicker posted:So are you telling me that, if an American citizen showed up as the military leader of a group of separatist rebels in, say, Panama and this American had been a CIA agent for 20 years, you wouldn't suspect the US of involvement? After all, lots of people work for the CIA and most of them don't personally know Obama. Yes. I have friends of people from FSB. Is i agent of Putin? Or Are my friends agent of Putin?) It is real life. It is not american film.
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 18:28 |
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Bunch of points he mentions: I show other opinions. I know opinion by Merkel. Only facts: http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en/publish/article?showHidden=1&art_id=247376176&cat_id=247077618&ctime=1402389839487 Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine - SYCH Olexandr Maxymovych. Member of Political Committee of the All-Ukrainian Movement Svoboda (Freedom), Deputy Chairman of the Party for ideology. Now: On 1 July 2014 six MPs left the Communist Party faction in parliament, reducing it to 23 members.[17][18] A vote, supported by 232 MPs, on 22 July 2014 gave the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada (the speaker of Ukraine's parliament) the power to dissolve a faction that has lost some of its members compared to the number it had while it was formed during the first parliamentary session after the precious election, pending a signature from President Petro Poroshenko.[3][16][19] Later that day Poroshenko signed this bill giving effect to this new parliamentary regulation.[16] The next day speaker (and former Acting President) Turchynov announced the party's impending dissolution and added to MPs "We only have to tolerate this party for another day".[16] The party's faction in parliament was indeed dissolved 24 July 2014 by Turchynov.[3] The same day it was announced that at the time 308 criminal proceedings against members of the party had been opened.[20] Communists were accused of openly supporting the annexation of Crimea by Russia, supporting the creation of self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic and Lugansk People's Republic and agitating for annexation of the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast to Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Ukraine History: Soon after the appointment of Hitler as Chancellor, the Reichstag was set on fire and Dutch council communist Marinus van der Lubbe was found near the building. The Nazis publicly blamed the fire on communist agitators in general, although in a German court in 1933, it was decided that van der Lubbe had acted alone, as he claimed to have done. After the fire, the Reichstag Fire Decree was passed, under the pretext of snuffing out "Communist state-endangering acts of violence." Its actual effect, however, was to suspend most civil liberties. The KPD was banned shortly afterward. The Enabling Act, which legally gave Hitler dictatorial control of Germany, was passed by a Reichstag session held after all communist deputies had been arrested and jailed. The KPD was efficiently suppressed by the Nazis. Thousands of Communists were imprisoned in concentration camps, including Thälmann and the party's leader in the Reichstag, Ernst Torgler. The most senior KPD leaders to escape were Wilhelm Pieck and Walter Ulbricht, who went into exile in the Soviet Union. The KPD maintained an underground organisation in Germany throughout the Nazi period, but the loss of many core members severely weakened the Party's infrastructure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 18:43 |
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Wait, I thought Russia was supposed to be a democratic, capitalist nation now.
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 18:58 |
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RFC2324 posted:Wait, I thought Russia was supposed to be a democratic, capitalist nation now. And what? The Russian Federation is a federal semi-presidential republic. Political parties in Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Russia utjkju fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Aug 2, 2014 |
# ? Aug 2, 2014 19:01 |
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utjkju posted:Yes. I have friends of people from FSB. Is i agent of Putin? Or Are my friends agent of Putin?) If your friends are working for the FSB then yes they are agents of the Russian state, just like someone who works for the CIA is an agent of the American state. If someone who works for an intelligence agency shows up leading a group of rebels in a foreign country, it is reasonable to suspect that the government of their nation of origin and/or its intelligence agencies may be involved in that rebellion. Again I am not talking about random low level soldiers, I'm talking about senior leadership.
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 19:55 |
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Earwicker posted:If your friends are working for the FSB then yes they are agents of the Russian state, just like someone who works for the CIA is an agent of the American state. If someone who works for an intelligence agency shows up leading a group of rebels in a foreign country, it is reasonable to suspect that the government of their nation of origin and/or its intelligence agencies may be involved in that rebellion. Again I am not talking about random low level soldiers, I'm talking about senior leadership. You know what is FSB? FSB - The federal service of safety. http://www.fsb.ru/fsb/structure.htm - FSB of Russia. Investigation Investigation — activity of bodies of FSB of Russia within the Russian Federation on production, delivery and processing of the classified information connected with organized criminal and terrorist groups. Prospecting activity outside the Russian Federation is carried out by body of foreign intelligence — SVR of Russia according to the Federal law of the Russian Federation "About foreign intelligence" utjkju fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Aug 2, 2014 |
# ? Aug 2, 2014 20:25 |
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If a member of MI6 showed up in India leading a movement for the reintegration of all or part of India into the British Empire, the international community would rightly identify his status as a member of Britain's intelligence agencies as suspicious.
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 21:01 |
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utjkju posted:You know what is FSB? FSB - The federal service of safety. Yes, exactly. Which means they are quite clearly connected with the Russian government. No it doesn't mean they are all personal buddies with Putin, but it does generally mean that when a Russian citizen with a 20 year career in Russia's security agency shows up leading a group of Pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine, it's entirely reasonable to suspect Russian involvement. Especially since not only him, but also the prime minister of the self-declared independent Donetsk region is also a Russian citizen from Moscow. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Aug 2, 2014 |
# ? Aug 2, 2014 21:37 |
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utjkju posted:I show other opinions. I know opinion by Merkel. Listen, I've been perfectly okay with giving you some leeway over the whole language-barrier issue, but if the entirety of your response is going to be an innocent "Yeah, but how about XYZ", then this isn't exactly a discussion that's going anywhere. I do not presume to know anything about the perception of this issue in Russia so I'm not going to go out of my way to tell russians how they as a people feel about it. You could try to reciprocate and stop attempting to illustrate how the germans as a people feel about any given subject. quote:Only facts: Once more, I'm going to forego what I think you might be inferring and simply ask you what it is you're inferring with this, because I generally have a predetermined response to the whole Ermaechtigungsgesetze-comparison...at least in the majority of the cases I've encountered it so far.
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# ? Aug 2, 2014 21:58 |
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Jaramin posted:If a member of MI6 showed up in India leading a movement for the reintegration of all or part of India into the British Empire, the international community would rightly identify his status as a member of Britain's intelligence agencies as suspicious. Earwicker posted:Yes, exactly. Which means they are quite clearly connected with the Russian government. No it doesn't mean they are all personal buddies with Putin, but it does generally mean that when a Russian citizen with a 20 year career in Russia's security agency shows up leading a group of Pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine, it's entirely reasonable to suspect Russian involvement. Especially since not only him, but also the prime minister of the self-declared independent Donetsk region is also a Russian citizen from Moscow. No. Man don't connected with the Russian government after 3 years after the end of work in FSB and man can go in other countries. If man work in FSB he can not cross a frontier of Russia.
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# ? Aug 3, 2014 03:37 |
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Listen, I've been perfectly okay with giving you some leeway over the whole language-barrier issue, but if the entirety of your response is going to be an innocent "Yeah, but how about XYZ", then this isn't exactly a discussion that's going anywhere. You think that only your opinion is correct? I show vidio of people from Germany. What is bad? I understood your opinion, but there are other opinions. What is bad? My husband have sister in Germany. Why i can not show her opinion? I have friends from Czech Republic and Poland. Why i can not show opinions of they?
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# ? Aug 3, 2014 03:50 |
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utjkju posted:You think that only your opinion is correct? I show vidio of people from Germany. What is bad? Credibility is important. Do you have any sources other than blogs, Russia Today, or 'a guy I know in Germany'? I want to agree with you. I know you want us to agree with you. But first you have to actually try and understand our viewpoint on the matter. This is not a personal attack. We want actual facts, not fringe accounts and testimony.
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# ? Aug 3, 2014 05:25 |
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:Credibility is important. My answer in this topic. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3655021&pagenumber=1#lastpost
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# ? Aug 3, 2014 05:36 |
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# ? Aug 3, 2014 14:02 |
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Three questions: - Is Russia great, or is Russia really, really great and horribly persecuted by Western fascists? - Are west-Ukrainians horrible fascists, or are they horrible fascists who are also Nazis and are supported by the lies of the fascist Western media? - Are you Vladimir Putin?
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# ? Aug 3, 2014 15:00 |
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jimma posted:Three questions: Yes, I am Vladimir Putin.)
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# ? Aug 3, 2014 15:04 |
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# ? May 21, 2024 16:14 |
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utjkju posted:Yes, I am Vladimir Putin.) Are you currently shirtless and/or riding a horse?
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# ? Aug 3, 2014 16:06 |