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Mr.48 posted:I genuinely don't get this snobbish attitude that most of this thread reeks of. Who cares if people read silly pulp for their own enjoyment? Are you that insecure about your own intelligence and taste in book? Its like the people who get off on these literary circle-jerks are the closeted republicans of the written word. I am.
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Aug 3, 2014 18:50
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CestMoi posted:I am. Every one of your posts in TBB is worthless.
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Aug 3, 2014 18:59
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Blind Sally posted:I think the problem is working itself out. For a while there was pretty much nothing but genre fic threads. But now people are beginning to post more threads about other work, classical and otherwise. As long as we keep doing that instead of blindly criticizing stuff, it's gonna sort itself out. But this thread should probably get a title change, since it's needlessly inflammatory and keeps bringing in people who angrily post without reading the discourse that has occurred throughout the thread (not pointing fingers). I feel like the title has been helpful because this thread got more posts than the thread for talking non-genre books in a mere fraction of the time!
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Aug 3, 2014 19:12
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whatever I decided to be less snide Sometimes you have to put some effort in to understand or learn to appreciate literature. If you're unwilling to do that, but instead spend time on somethingawful forums trying to justify not putting that effort in, you deserve to get made fun of a little bit. Bundt Cake fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Aug 3, 2014 |
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Aug 3, 2014 19:40
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Guy A. Person posted:I genuinely don't understand why you have such poor reading comprehension. I didn't say anything even remotely approaching what you're accusing me of here, and in fact said I was fine with it (edit: "it" being people who read pulp/genre, since like I said I am one of those people)! My major point of contention with your posts is that you were arguing that reading simpler things doesnt help people develop better tastes later on. And that by extension, people who read those things will never read anything better unless they are forced to by external factors. This is not only clearly untrue, but is insulting to those readers by parading the superiority of your own tastes. In other words, snobbery. ^^^^^ See the post above for a perfect example.
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Aug 3, 2014 19:56
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Mr.48 posted:My major point of contention with your posts is that you were arguing that reading simpler things doesnt help people develop better tastes later on. And that by extension, people who read those things will never read anything better unless they are forced to by external factors. This is not only clearly untrue, but is insulting to those readers by parading the superiority of your own tastes. In other words, snobbery. So you've excused yourself from improving your ability to enjoy literature by saying that people who try and encourage others to do so are snobs.
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Aug 3, 2014 20:01
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Bundt Cake posted:So you've excused yourself from improving your ability to enjoy literature by saying that people who try and encourage others to do so are snobs. Don't mean to "truth is in the middle" here, but it seems to me like both sides of the argument are determined to avoid enjoying literature.
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Aug 3, 2014 20:09
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LaughMyselfTo posted:Don't mean to "truth is in the middle" here, but it seems to me like both sides of the argument are determined to avoid enjoying literature. Personally I think its cool for anyone to read whatever they want. I like to read stuff that is challenging, because its fun to dig in to stuff, and writers put a lot of work into their writing, so its rewarding to uncover that. To me, it is boring to read something thats just about escapism, or however fantasy, etc. readers want to frame it. I enjoy reading all the time! but I do feel like the victim thing that people are doing is silly.
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Aug 3, 2014 20:18
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I like to read all things, including cereal box tops. Imagine that!
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Aug 3, 2014 20:20
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Mr.48 posted:My major point of contention with your posts is that you were arguing that reading simpler things doesnt help people develop better tastes later on. And that by extension, people who read those things will never read anything better unless they are forced to by external factors. This is not only clearly untrue, but is insulting to those readers by parading the superiority of your own tastes. In other words, snobbery. I wasn't arguing that reading simpler things doesn't help people develop better tastes, I fully agree with that logic. I was arguing first of all that the "at least they are reading something" argument suggests they are incapable/unwilling of reading at a higher level; it sets a very low standard. Secondly, I also find it highly suspect that the overwhelming majority of people on this site are at that level; I don't buy that at all. I have no problem with anyone who is at that level, or even people reading genre/pulp just in general. Also I don't think the logic follows in your second and third sentences. Even if I didn't believe that reading simpler things built up reading experience, its a stretch to say that this implies that they would never read anything better. It is an even bigger stretch to say I was parading my own "superior" tastes, since I haven't called out anything I do read except Harry Potter and other genre stuff.
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Aug 3, 2014 20:35
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Blind Sally posted:I like to read all things, including cereal box tops. Imagine that! We're all reading this thread so obviously none of us are very particular
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Aug 3, 2014 20:39
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If reading great literature proclaiming it to be of higher artistic and personal merit then shlock is snobbery or elitism than so be it, I would revel in my elitism. Is anyone going to seriously argue that Tom Clancy and Harlequin Romance novels are somehow equal to Sophocles or Tolstoy? Even if we accept the argument of some posters here that bad popular fiction is mere training for better literature than the thread title is exactly right, reading the better stuff would be an act of "growing up." Genre fiction can be fun and if you enjoy it by all means read it, no one will stop you from binging on Wheel of Time, Dan Brown or whatever else. Yet reading such work gains you little culturally and little personally. We rank artistic efforts in hierarchies all the time. To draw a comparison to film, Citizen Kane and Debbie Does Dallas are both films that people derive different kinds of satisfaction from watching, but I think someone would be willfully stubborn to not think Citizen Kane was a greater work even if they derive less, uh, immediate satisfaction. Barlow fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 3, 2014 23:18
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blue squares posted:Every one of your posts in TBB is worthless. I am sorry you feel that way, and I preferred your old avatar if you were the guy with the asparagus wearing sunglasses.IF not, I am merely sorry.
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Aug 3, 2014 23:59
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If eating vegan and proclaiming it to be of higher nutritional and personal merit than Big Macs is snobbery or elitism, then so be it, I would revel in my elitism. Is anyone going to seriously argue that pig butt and chicken parts are somehow equal to broccoli or kale? Even if we accept the argument of some posters here that factory-farmed murder is mere training for better eating, then the thread title is exactly right, eating the better stuff would be an act of "growing up." Jack in the Box can be fun and if you enjoy it by all means eat it, no one will stop you from binging on factory-farmed chickens, tortured cows, or whatever else. Yet eating such food gains you little nutritionally and little personally. We rank grub in hierarchies all the time. To draw a comparison to film, Citizen Kane and Debbie Does Dallas are both films that people derive different kinds of satisfaction from watching, but I think someone would be willfully stubborn to not think Citizen Kane was a greater meal even if they derive less, uh, immediate satisfaction.
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Aug 4, 2014 07:09
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Ha, I thought it was funnier when people were comparing reading books to weight-lifting, though.
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Aug 4, 2014 07:30
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What I take away from this argument is that y'all probably chew the covers of your books.
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Aug 4, 2014 07:32
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Blind Sally posted:Ha, I thought it was funnier when people were comparing reading books to weight-lifting, though. Bro, do you even lit?
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Aug 4, 2014 08:16
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scourgeofthe7bees posted:If eating vegan and proclaiming it to be of higher nutritional and personal merit than Big Macs is snobbery or elitism, then so be it, I would revel in my elitism. Not a vegan and I would unironically agree with this. Kale is kickass. Barlow fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 17:41
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inktvis posted:Bro, do you even lit? Haha, mods, please change the subforum name to this, tia.
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Aug 4, 2014 18:24
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Bundt Cake posted:So you've excused yourself from improving your ability to enjoy literature by saying that people who try and encourage others to do so are snobs. First of all, encouraging people is one thing, telling people that they're reading poo poo and need to grow up is entirely different. Someone struggling with math won't be helped by calling him stupid or slow. I dont have a problem with the message that people should try to expand their reading horizons, but rather the snooty way with which some people try to deliver it. Second, I have a problem with the assumption that people who read pulp are somehow inferior as readers. For example, my current phase of work involves reading up to a dozen or more technical and academic papers a day. Because of that, when I finally get home and want to read something to relax I like silly books about space-pirates. When my work-related reading is not as taxing, I usually read more high-brow stuff in my free time like history or philosophy. Given the large amount of posters in this forum who are students or work in academic/technical fields I would wager that my situation is not at all uncommon. Guy A. Person posted:I wasn't arguing that reading simpler things doesn't help people develop better tastes, I fully agree with that logic. I was arguing first of all that the "at least they are reading something" argument suggests they are incapable/unwilling of reading at a higher level; it sets a very low standard. Secondly, I also find it highly suspect that the overwhelming majority of people on this site are at that level; I don't buy that at all. I have no problem with anyone who is at that level, or even people reading genre/pulp just in general. I think you've misunderstood what posters like Raskolnikov and myself are saying in regard to this point. We are not saying "at least they're reading something" like we're pitying someone with a disability. Rather, we are saying that since they're at least reading something they have an opportunity to develop their taste further. By contrast, if they aren't reading anything at all, they may simply think that reading isn't for them. Likewise, if you throw them into the deep end too early, they may decide that they just aren't smart enough to appreciate it and never come back. Good literature is highly rewarding to read, but we should be more inviting to those who haven't gotten there yet, instead of deriding their current reading habits.
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Aug 4, 2014 18:53
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Mr.48 posted:I think you've misunderstood what posters like Raskolnikov and myself are saying in regard to this point. Yeah I am going to go out on a limb here and say that maybe I misunderstood you because you never made those points and instead spent a lot of time calling me a snob.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:46
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Guy A. Person posted:Yeah I am going to go out on a limb here and say that maybe I misunderstood you because you never made those points and instead spent a lot of time calling me a snob. The snob thing was aimed more generally at all the posters acting high and mighty in here because they dont read about spacemen and goblins. My apologies if I've ascribed that to you unjustly.
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Aug 4, 2014 19:51
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Not gonna pick on you here (or anyone in particular), but I just wanna make an observation that I hear the line about only reading pulp and genre due to having a busy workload so often that it feels like a second cousin to the nerd line about liking all music genres "except rap and country".
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Aug 4, 2014 20:45
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Srice posted:Not gonna pick on you here (or anyone in particular), but I just wanna make an observation that I hear the line about only reading pulp and genre due to having a busy workload so often that it feels like a second cousin to the nerd line about liking all music genres "except rap and country". that line of thought boggles my mind, it's like these dweebs have got it into their heads that good literature can't be entertaining or fun to read
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Aug 4, 2014 21:10
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Also how is 6 times a 1000 page epic more economical with time than Notes from the Underground
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Aug 4, 2014 21:19
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ulvir posted:that line of thought boggles my mind, it's like these dweebs have got it into their heads that good literature can't be entertaining or fun to read Of course it can. But it can also be mentally taxing, which after a full day of mentally taxing work is not the ideal way to relax. Also, way to be a douchebag about it. Srice posted:Not gonna pick on you here (or anyone in particular), but I just wanna make an observation that I hear the line about only reading pulp and genre due to having a busy workload so often that it feels like a second cousin to the nerd line about liking all music genres "except rap and country". Have you considered that you might be hearing it a lot because it could be true for many people? Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 22:03
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Mr.48 posted:Of course it can. But it can also be mentally taxing, which after a full day of mentally taxing work is not the ideal way to relax. Also, way to be a douchebag about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
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Aug 5, 2014 00:13
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Considering your grown up reading habits, you guys sure get into some childish loving arguments.
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Aug 5, 2014 00:30
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bondetamp posted:Considering your grown up reading habits, you guys sure get into some childish loving arguments. No one's getting in an argument, we're having fun discussion amongst friends. Are you my friend? Would you like to join in the discussion?
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Aug 5, 2014 00:41
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Mr.48 posted:I think you've misunderstood what posters like Raskolnikov and myself are saying in regard to this point. We are not saying "at least they're reading something" like we're pitying someone with a disability. Rather, we are saying that since they're at least reading something they have an opportunity to develop their taste further. By contrast, if they aren't reading anything at all, they may simply think that reading isn't for them. Likewise, if you throw them into the deep end too early, they may decide that they just aren't smart enough to appreciate it and never come back. Good literature is highly rewarding to read, but we should be more inviting to those who haven't gotten there yet, instead of deriding their current reading habits. I really don't care what other people read and I read a good mix of 'highbrow' lit and genre stuff so I don't throw stones in case someone hits my glass house with a catapult. However, I'd much rather we have a thread like this one than having people poo poo all over genre threads and the reading challenge thread. People should be able to talk about "good" books, and now they have a place to do so. Also: there have been people who have only read genre for a really long time who have actually wandered in here and said they picked up something a little heavier upon reading about it in this thread, so win/win. If they don't want to read anything heavier then they can stay in their genre threads, no one is forcing them to come in here and have their delicate sensibilities offended. Anyway this thread is pretty funny. It doesn't matter how highbrow you think your reading selections are, there's always someone who is going to come and criticize what you're reading and tell you it sucks. Also, when that guy wandered in here all butt-hurt and then said that he'd try something new based on his enjoyment of Steinbeck and someone said 'hey, read some Chaucer!'
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Aug 5, 2014 01:05
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Yeah, this thread has been pretty good about filtering out people who were being dicks in other threads and actually getting them to engage in meaningful discussion.
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Aug 5, 2014 01:09
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Mr.48 posted:Have you considered that you might be hearing it a lot because it could be true for many people? To be honest I believe that the people who talk about liking all genres besides rap and country just haven't given anything on those genres a fair shake. Or for another line in the same vein, "I can't exercise because it hurts my knees" I guess what I'm getting at is, to me it just comes across as an excuse that tries to save face instead of sounding honest. I'm sure there are legit cases but I just have my doubts about the majority of them! Also ulvir posted:that line of thought boggles my mind, it's like these dweebs have got it into their heads that good literature can't be entertaining or fun to read Yeah this, lots of hella fun stuff that has zero spaceships or wizards or whatever in them. Srice fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 01:12
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Srice posted:Not gonna pick on you here (or anyone in particular), but I just wanna make an observation that I hear the line about only reading pulp and genre due to having a busy workload so often that it feels like a second cousin to the nerd line about liking all music genres "except rap and country". Sometimes when I've had a lovely 12 hour day listening to people bitch and whine at me because of their half million dollar project going sideways because of Acts of God that are beyond my control, all I want to read is escapist fiction about wizards saving Chicago. It happens, I believe it. I balance this by reading heavier stuff when things are going smoothly, but not everyone gets a break.
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Aug 5, 2014 01:24
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This thread got me to finally read Gravity's Rainbow, so I will always love it. You never really know what you are missing with a book like that until you dive in and read it. Something like Gravity's Rainbow might seem daunting and a little boring, but it's much more pie in the face and down right funny then you'd expect. Really books that are considered literature are considered good for a reason, and most of them can blow you away if you give them a chance. It's just easy to read a bunch of genre fiction all the time but this thread is just trying to tell you how you never did the kenosha kid.
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Aug 5, 2014 03:21
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I don't think the issue is that people are reading pulp fiction at all, just that TBB as a whole is ridiculously overemphasizing the pulp.
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Aug 5, 2014 04:35
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Yeah, something like 80% of the threads on TBB are about genre and pulp books. A little variety would be nice. That Arctic book thread for example, that's awesome.
Chamberk fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 05:41
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Chamberk posted:Yeah, something like 80% of the threads on TBB are about genre and pulp books. A little variety would be nice. Then post a thread.
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Aug 5, 2014 05:42
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Srice posted:I feel like the title has been helpful because this thread got more posts than the thread for talking non-genre books in a mere fraction of the time! Sounds like you've got a Dickensian attitude towards quality. (Seriously though, gently caress Great Expectations. The rest of Dickens I read was fine but gently caress Great Expectations. Smoking Crow posted:No one's getting in an argument, we're having fun discussion amongst friends. Are you my friend? Would you like to join in the discussion? Come off man. It's a shitshow and it's 100% a shitshow because of the thread title and the first post. That sure makes it enjoyable but it makes this thread Twilight to the English prof A/T. Sure it's fun, but lets not pretend we're not masturbating to
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Aug 5, 2014 18:04
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the JJ posted:It's a shitshow and it's 100% a shitshow because of the thread title and the first post. LIterally judging a book by its cover here in The Book Barn
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Aug 5, 2014 18:07
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Is this real literature, or pulp fiction?
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Aug 5, 2014 18:10
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