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OmniBeer posted:..holy gently caress, the twist in that last chapter was something I literally did not see coming in the slightest bit. Has anyone processed exactly what this means to all the previous story? I'm trying to think about it in my head right now and was Grandma Rose able to setup something so powerful that it temporarily swapped a vestige and a real person? How do Blake's friends play into it then... were they always Rose's friends and just temporarily thought they were Blake's friends? In that opening chapter everyone talks about how big of a magic act was fired off when Molly died but man it was really huge for it to literally put a real person into the mirror world, pull out a vestige, AND connect all of Rose's connections to Blake. I'm a bit confused but I'm sure we'll get it all explained at some point.
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Aug 5, 2014 07:10
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| # ? May 11, 2024 21:48 |
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How was Blake doing magic if he's really an Other? Was it brought up with Rose at some point and I just forgot?
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Aug 5, 2014 08:03
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Elyv posted:How was Blake doing magic if he's really an Other? Was it brought up with Rose at some point and I just forgot? Do we quite know how this works though? Can Others do 'normal' magic? Faeries use glamours obviously. Goblins can use stealth charms and what's not. Maybe only practitioners can bind things? What really separates 'practitioner' from 'magically powerful other' decisively? Of course rules could be a bit different for vestiges. He could of course be wrong about his conclusion at the end. Or slightly off mark. We'll see next update probably. Namarrgon fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 09:30
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Elyv posted:How was Blake doing magic if he's really an Other? Was it brought up with Rose at some point and I just forgot? I saw some theories on the comments that the 'awakening' ritual Rose did was something to give her ability as a practictioner to Blake - either intentionally or unintentionally. I could see that being a possibility. Either that, or that just like if Padraic had manage to claim everything from the name Maggie Holt, he might have been able to become a practitioner, claiming Rose's position in the universe and so utterly and completely replacing her convinced the universe so thoroughly that he was an actual person and a legitimate practitioner that he became an actual person and legitimate practitioner in the eyes of the world and the spirits - which is probably all that matters.
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Aug 5, 2014 09:32
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Also, as power sources go for that little trick, the Barber seems like a logical choice. It even had an affinity with mirrors and reflections right? Coupled with Corvidae (or Corvidae-like) to swap connections around.. On the bright side, I think we can safely say Blake isn't Johannes! Namarrgon fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 09:55
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So, who was Rose talking about when her half of the awakening ceremony involved "... more than a vestige."?
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Aug 5, 2014 10:26
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Tollymain posted:So, who was Rose talking about when her half of the awakening ceremony involved "... more than a vestige."? I wonder if we'll get a side chapter showing some of the earlier chapters from Rose's point of view. That would be interesting.
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Aug 5, 2014 11:15
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Why go through Molly first, then Blake? If the point of all this was to buy time for the heir, why bother throwing Molly to the goblins first? For that matter, did Rose remember Molly being the first heir on her side?
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Aug 5, 2014 11:54
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Explains why he could never see himself in the mirrors, too. drat, I might have to read this through again now.
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Aug 5, 2014 13:16
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Nettle Soup posted:Explains why he could never see himself in the mirrors, too Isn't that a lot easier to explain? Rose is his reflection (up until his demise, that is) -- the copy on the other side of the mirror just happens to have more agency than that of most people.
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Aug 5, 2014 13:22
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It also makes me think of the bit on the Toronto subway where the man mistook him for Rose, I think he was feeling especially drained and worn down at this point and its possible Rose was bleeding back over.
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Aug 5, 2014 13:31
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I still think this reveal may be a fake out. What better way to grind someone down into something other, than to trick them into accepting that they were never human to begin with?
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Aug 5, 2014 13:32
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Nah, narratively that would be unsatisfying and kind of pointless. You don't throw out a huge revelation like that and then say "haha just kidding".
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Aug 5, 2014 13:33
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Grundulum posted:Why go through Molly first, then Blake? If the point of all this was to buy time for the heir, why bother throwing Molly to the goblins first? For that matter, did Rose remember Molly being the first heir on her side? Molly's grisly death ensured that Blake would take the situation seriously and not attempt to flee. In effect, it was a preliminary sacrifice to ensure that Rose's primary defender would be properly aware of the danger and motivated.
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Aug 5, 2014 14:21
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Really interesting twist. Grandma Rose was quite clever, there's more to Blake's manufactured memories than just not liking being touched to protect his vestige fragility - everything we've seen about his made-up life (extricating himself from his family, noticing & opting out of the Cult of Carl) suggests that his personality has been guided to reject 'just going along with things' and taking the path of least resistance. This makes sense if Grandma Rose didn't just want him to be tenacious and last as long as he could, but also wanted him to avoid diabolism and dealing with the lawyers when he was in a tight spot. You wouldn't want the vestige racking up more family debt... Also, it seems like Blake found a Third Way here - his shadow gave him the dichotomy of either fighting the memories and becoming more monstrous, or going through with the memory and becoming less. I wonder what the effect of his realization will be though. There could be strength gained by coming to terms with reality, but if that reality involves admitting that he was never really 'real' in the first place, where does that leave him?
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Aug 5, 2014 14:59
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Tollymain posted:Nah, narratively that would be unsatisfying and kind of pointless. You don't throw out a huge revelation like that and then say "haha just kidding". I just reread chapter 1.1, and I am really on board with the fake out idea, as narratively unsatisfying as it may be. There is just no reason to have that first chapter with the implanted memories of the(?) scenes it contains, not any more reason than for this reveal to be a red herring. Why trust Wildbow now, rather than then? Also, of course Blake is an Other now. He was on the receiving end of a role reversal of pretty staggering proportions with that whole "the Universe thinks you never existed" thing. Now, all that said, now that I have reread 1.1 I am much more convinced that Rose was in on this the entire time. She knew what was going on way too early to have come into existence when Molly died.
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Aug 5, 2014 17:02
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I'm kind of surprised that theory ended up correct. I do like twists like this though, because it makes me want to go back and reread everything to look for little hints. There's an interesting theory in the comment section that thinks Blake's memories might not all be fabricated. Just like the Behaims take shortcuts with their magic to conserve power, Rose Sr. might have had Barbatorem carve a real person out of reality to make room for Blake. It would explain where Blake's friends come from, as it seems unlikely that they would have had a connection to Rose Jr. that could be re-purposed. Oh, and the ghosts of Blake's past that Conquest had. Those had to come from somewhere. It does make me wonder why Rose Sr. made a visage that explicitly hated her though, assuming she had the choice. I think that still has some deeper meaning to it. I suppose it's also worth mentioning that Blake isn't just an Other, he's an other created by a demon. That probably doesn't bode well for him in the cosmic sense.
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Aug 5, 2014 17:09
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It's worth noting that Blake's assumption that he was some sort of throw away protection for Rose is probably wrong. If you can make a person out of whole cloth why make a sacrificial lamb when you can make a person perfectly suited to paying down your Families cosmic debt?Pavlov posted:I suppose it's also worth mentioning that Blake isn't just an Other, he's an other created by a demon. That probably doesn't bode well for him in the cosmic sense. Barbatorum isn't really a demon. Grandma Rose was kind of clear about the fact the entity is kind of hard to define. NecroMonster fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 19:26
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Namarrgon posted:Also, as power sources go for that little trick, the Barber seems like a logical choice. It even had an affinity with mirrors and reflections right? Coupled with Corvidae (or Corvidae-like) to swap connections around.. I wouldn't be so sure.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:01
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I don't 'get' one thing about the latest chapter: What was the point of the whole exercise? Did Carl rape him in the shelter or was the whole point that he begged Carl to take him back into the cult?
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Aug 6, 2014 00:01
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thespaceinvader posted:I wouldn't be so sure. Yeah, I think I agree. Why not consider the idea that Blake is a vestige of Johannes? With the false ties to the world cut, he's beginning to seem more and more like Johannes, both in appearance and in actions. Considering how both considered themselves "good practitioners with a bad rap", Blake has an appearance mirroring his, and the entire saga of the claiming of Johannes' demenses, who's to say that Grandma Rose didn't grab a piece of him during that particular struggle to further her own plans? Rather than machinations and convenient control over Blake's life (or supposed life, depending on interpretation), he's been mirroring some of what Johannes went through. One should also consider the warnings to stay away from him (which I can't remember if that's true, or where, but it's lodged in the brain anyways) and to avoid taking a dog as a familiar, Grandma Rose was merely manipulating things so that the piece of Johannes she took wouldn't suddenly break apart by getting too close to the real thing. With those ties cut, he's reverting to his origins. Plus, look at their goals and methods - anyone else see the similarities between the two, not to mention Mags maintaining connections to Blake and receiving a strange amount of help? Failing that, is Blake just conforming to the Johannes-form due to the man's nature as a larger-than-life figure with a tangential connection to him?
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Aug 6, 2014 01:28
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TOOT BOOT posted:I don't 'get' one thing about the latest chapter: What was the point of the whole exercise? Did Carl rape him in the shelter or was the whole point that he begged Carl to take him back into the cult? I couldn't figure that out either. I'd think it would be rape to be this traumatic though.
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Aug 6, 2014 02:05
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RC Cola posted:I couldn't figure that out either. I'd think it would be rape to be this traumatic though. I think Blake got his touch phobia once he figured out what was going on with the cult and how all the casual sex was being used to manipulate him. I figured based on his comment about Alexis they killed or incapacitated Carl when he found them at the shelter and ran away.
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Aug 6, 2014 02:10
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Or Blake was being raped by Carl and Alexis killed or incapacitated him in the "previous" encounter.
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Aug 6, 2014 02:12
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Hedningen posted:Yeah, I think I agree. Why not consider the idea that Blake is a vestige of Johannes? With the false ties to the world cut, he's beginning to seem more and more like Johannes, both in appearance and in actions. Considering how both considered themselves "good practitioners with a bad rap", Blake has an appearance mirroring his, and the entire saga of the claiming of Johannes' demenses, who's to say that Grandma Rose didn't grab a piece of him during that particular struggle to further her own plans? Rather than machinations and convenient control over Blake's life (or supposed life, depending on interpretation), he's been mirroring some of what Johannes went through. One should also consider the warnings to stay away from him (which I can't remember if that's true, or where, but it's lodged in the brain anyways) and to avoid taking a dog as a familiar, Grandma Rose was merely manipulating things so that the piece of Johannes she took wouldn't suddenly break apart by getting too close to the real thing. With those ties cut, he's reverting to his origins. Plus, look at their goals and methods - anyone else see the similarities between the two, not to mention Mags maintaining connections to Blake and receiving a strange amount of help? The caution against taking a dog or a rat as a familiar is because Johannes has a set of golden pipes that allow him to control those creatures.
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Aug 6, 2014 02:36
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NecroMonster posted:The caution against taking a dog or a rat as a familiar is because Johannes has a set of golden pipes that allow him to control those creatures. Now, where did that come up? I'd been waiting for that particular Chekov's gun to go off, and I missed it completely (as with many things Wildbow writes).
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Aug 6, 2014 05:22
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NecroMonster posted:Barbatorum isn't really a demon. Grandma Rose was kind of clear about the fact the entity is kind of hard to define. Fine. He was apparently carved out by an ancient and powerful abstract being of corruption, mutilation, and death, who can leap into your eyes and possess you if you so much as look at it, and was summoned by a daemonologist with the offering of festering carcases and an infant child. Also it can forever deny your soul from heaven. "Demon" Pavlov fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Aug 6, 2014 |
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Aug 6, 2014 05:48
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Grundulum posted:Now, where did that come up? I'd been waiting for that particular Chekov's gun to go off, and I missed it completely (as with many things Wildbow writes). -“Vestiges, children,” Johannes said, drawing his pipes from one pocket. “Find another place to hide for the time being.” “Why-” Ben started. But Johannes was tapping the set of brass pipes against his ring. Metal chimed, a brief sound like that from a tuning fork. “Begone,” Johannes said.- He also mentions them when talking to maggie/mags about his familiar. Pavlov posted:Fine. He was apparently carved out by an ancient and powerful abstract being of corruption, mutilation, and death, who can leap into your eyes and possess you if you so much as look at it, and was summoned by a daemonologist with the offering of festering carcases and an infant child. Also it can forever deny your soul from heaven. -The being I have named Barbatorem is an entity falling under the classification Insolitus Nex. This author does not believe in stricter classifications, and leaves it to others to label him a devil or goblin as they see fit. It is difficult to impossible to guess as to his origins, but one can speculate that it came about after the dawn of human civilization, given the common elements and the trend in appearances.- It's possibly an important distinction, because this story is all about distinctions.
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Aug 6, 2014 05:59
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Mate, she literally says there that she's open to people calling it a devil. I'm the guy calling it a devil. It's me. It is interesting to see the comparison with that to Rose Jr though. Rose Jr summons up a bunch of Bogeymen which she says is ok because they're not "really demons". Here Rose Sr has summoned up something at home in Dante's Inferno and goes "Well, some people might consider this a demon, but I don't really believe in classifying Others so YMMV". Also, Insolitus Nex means "Unusual Murder". Come on Rose Sr.
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Aug 6, 2014 06:22
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NecroMonster posted:Signature 8.6 It could be that he can control vestiges with them, which is why Blake is told to stay away. I dunno, I'm finding all this fascinating and confusing. 
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Aug 6, 2014 19:55
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I dont quite get whats going on with Johannes but I am incredibly entertained that his implement is essentially the Pipes of the Pied Piper. Has he ever been seen to dress colorfully?
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Aug 6, 2014 20:28
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hollylolly posted:It could be that he can control vestiges with them, which is why Blake is told to stay away. The vestiges incorporated dog and rat spirits to fill up their cracks. The pipes affect dogs and rats.
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Aug 6, 2014 20:32
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One thing I'm not getting is where it's stated that Johannes' pipes can control dogs. Children and rats are pretty clear, but I can't recall where the ability of the pipes to control dogs come from. While it can be inferred that they have some power over dogs in 8.6, the exact wording in 8.7 isPact 8.7 posted:“Well, at one point he asked why I hadn’t tried using my pipes.” It seems like the control of dogs thing is an inference on the part of others within the story, as Johannes doesn't directly admit that he has power over dogs - the wording of that statement could imply that others believe him to have power over them, an image he chooses to foster as the manipulator he is, and the "little bit of everything" means that there'd be something else - rats and children - inside Faysal to give him a shot at control. The dog symbolism is also brought up specifically in Histories, as well - remember that a specific mention is made of the Fool being "a boy and his dog", and Blake is tied to the Fool in some sense. Appearance and archetypes count for a lot in this world, so consciously adopting the persona of the Fool is to invite ruin and chaos on the practitioner - an archetype that Johannes has adopted. I'm probably missing something, and it's probably stated clearly somewhere that his pipes control dogs, but I'm just not getting any more than little vague hints in the story - of the sort that implies that the dog portion of the pipes might not be a real ability, and that it's one of those carefully-worded and presented statements to misdirect, which is totally in character for Johannes, and I feel like there's a deeper reasoning behind this. Admittedly, the note on Famulus wasn't directed directly to Blake, but the element of the Fool being tied to having a dog as a familiar means that there's a chance there's something different down the line. At the moment, I'm sticking with my insane theory until I can find some definitive answers - and it's a good sign on the prose in Pact that I actually cared enough to search through the site for information. If someone can find me a definitive explanation of Johannes' abilities or Implement, then I'll abandon this theory readily, but it just feels too close for comfort.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:41
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Out of the Frying Pan into the completely hosed.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:44
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NecroMonster posted:Out of the Frying Pan into the completely hosed. Oh, so you mean we're reading a Wildbow story?
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Aug 7, 2014 07:11
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So after Blake's seeming death at the hands of Ur, I quit reading for a bit. I just wanted to get chapters stacked up. Jesus loving Christ the recent stuff has been incredible. Particularly the most recent chapter.
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Aug 7, 2014 07:17
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Yeah, drat there was a stretch where I was kind of "eh" on Pact, but now I am for sure hooked.
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Aug 7, 2014 07:32
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Hm. This would be the third time that Blake and Ur have had it out with each other, correct? So this one's for keepsies?Hedningen posted:it's a good sign on the prose in Pact that I actually cared enough to search through the site for information However, it feels unusual for a modern writer to be so coy with connections and internal references. There seem to be many things that Wildbow makes only offhand allusions to that answer previous questions, or that resolve open situations. (I'm thinking in particular of the red dot on Laird's eye during the Conquest resolution, and this issue with "no dogs or rats", but there are probably many others like these two.) I don't know if I like having to hunt so hard for answers to questions that seem obvious. ---- With that said, what the hell is happening in Toronto? When we left things Conquest was trapped in Blake's trunk. We're also still seeing snippets about the people still in Toronto, so I don't think we're done there just yet. Did Rose release Conquest in exchange for aid in her bid for Lordship of Jacob's Bell? Will Isadora come back into the story, given that she alone of the Toronto crew remembers Blake? 
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Aug 7, 2014 08:26
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Friday is going to be extra cool this time!
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Aug 7, 2014 09:47
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RIP Blake
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Aug 7, 2014 09:50
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