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Assuming they both have the same SHARP rating, the one that fits better and fogs up less. Money does not make a safer helmet.
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Aug 5, 2014 16:17
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ReelBigLizard posted:Assuming they both have the same SHARP rating, the one that fits better and fogs up less. Money does not make a safer helmet. You don't get to look up any ratings on it. We're making the choice only on price. The vast majority of people just buy whatever helmet. We're arguing about price correlating to safety, not doing additional research and cherry picking the unsafe expensive helmets and safe cheap helmets.
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Aug 5, 2014 16:21
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So, like, mid-crash, I have the option to buy a better helmet, but I can't take too much time? You can keep moving the target as much as you want. The point remains that some helmets are good enough and other helmets are better. Fortunately, we *can* do research to find out which ones are better.
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Aug 5, 2014 16:23
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n8r posted:We're arguing about price correlating to safety We're actually not. It's just you. And I'd still buy the one that fits comfortably and fogs up less. For reference I wear a $500 Shoei for this exact reason, it has a lower safety rating than my first shitbox nitro which fogged up and was uncomfortable. ReelBigLizard fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 16:24
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Someone took all the data off sharp and plotted it out by price and there is a correlation between price and safety, but you can easily cherry pick 5 star $150 helmets and 3 star $500+ helmets. All of Bell's helmets are all 5 star rated for instance and you can get a vortex for basically nothing.
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Aug 5, 2014 16:25
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ReelBigLizard posted:We're actually not. It's just you. I find this comment deliciously ironic. I believe the whole discussion was set off by Sagebrush implying any old full face helmet with any sort of certification will be as safe as any other. I replied to this by saying he is wrong and that I believe more expensive helmets are safer than less expensive helmets. Things then went back and forth a little bit which brings us to where we are now in the discussion. Up to this point I still believe that more expensive helmets are safer than less expensive helmets. Is this a scientific law? Clearly not. In general are more expensive helmets safer than less expensive helmets? I think so. Are there points of diminishing return? Yup. Can you find examples where this is not true? Yup. Does this make me wrong? Nope.
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Aug 5, 2014 16:39
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There seems to be three points everyone's missing here, accidentally or not. First - DOT, SNELL, CE, ACU, TU, whatever are all *minimum* standards. It is absolutely incorrect to say that two helmets holding the same certifications are exactly as safe as each other, as the SHARP ratings show that some do provide better protection than others. What you can say with confidence (and it's all you can say with confidence) is that any certified full-face helmet is likely to be safe enough in the vast majority of situations. If you happen to be able to find a safer, cheaper one that doesn't ignore my second point then woohoo, go for it (but you may end up with a helmet that gives you a a worse experience in non-crash situations which I'll go into in my third point). Second, although this has been touched on - a 5 star helmet that fits poorly will almost (and note I say *almost*) certainly offer you less protection in a crash than a 4 (or even 1) star helmet that fits you well. I have a Shoei-shaped head, and Arai helmets tend to be both simultaneously too tight and too loose on my head. Crashing at speed in an Arai loose enough to be comfortable on me would be a very bad thing - frontal impacts will be relying on an area of foam that my melon has already compressed, reducing it's ability to dissipate the impact. A side impact would allow the helmet to pivot, endangering my neck and increasing the impact I feel. It may even be loose enough to allow the helmet to come entirely off my head. Third - even a well-fitted helmet, if it's cheaply-made (note that this may or may not actually correspond to the price of the helmet) will be much more fatiguing to wear. It'll be heavier, have less comfortable padding, less ventilation, and be much noisier and more prone to lifting or buffeting at speed. The more fatigued you are the more likely you are to make a mistake at the end of a long ride, and while it's a very marginal thing you can certainly make a case that a well-made helmet will reduce not just the damage you take in a crash but will actually reduce the likelihood of you crashing. (Someone also made a point about fogging, which is another good point - cheaply-made helmets tend to be terrible for this). The point is that you can't just use any certification scheme and say "This is objectively the best helmet"; you absolutely have to try them on, compare things like aerodynamic design, and even things like the washability of the liners (because there's nothing worse than a sweaty helmet, right ladies?) to make the best choice for you.
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Aug 5, 2014 16:43
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n8r posted:You don't get to look up any ratings on it. We're making the choice only on price. The vast majority of people just buy whatever helmet. We're arguing about price correlating to safety, not doing additional research and cherry picking the unsafe expensive helmets and safe cheap helmets. I think the vast majority of people give up riding before they even wear out their babby's first CL-16. I bought my fancy Shoei because it's quiet and light. I didn't even think about crash safety beyond "cool it's a helmet".
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Aug 5, 2014 17:00
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I agree, there is no reason to buy a high end lid when you're just starting out and trying to figure out if you want to own a bike long term.
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Aug 5, 2014 17:07
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n8r posted:I find this comment deliciously ironic. What data are you using to back this theory?
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Aug 5, 2014 17:24
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Yeah, like your bike, when new you're probably going to drop it and have it roll down your gravel driveway and scratch the poo poo out of it. Then buy a new visor because you can't see anything, then do the exact same thing the next day.  I learned my lesson and don't put the helmet on the seat anymore, ever. Gravity will always win one way or another. I've also retired that helmet.
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Aug 5, 2014 17:27
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Radbot posted:What data are you using to back this theory? 
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Aug 5, 2014 17:29
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Tangent to all this, are there any modular helmets that aren't total poo poo yet? I would seriously like to switch over to one but I haven't really seen any models yet that didn't require several pints of blood and a promise of my first born child as part of the purchase price and still protected as well as a standard. Regarding price vs safety, I've just cherry-picked the less-expensive but high-rated helmets when I buy. They're going to get all scratched up and replaced after 5-7 years besides - I don't see a point in spending a grand on one that doesn't offer better protection than a $250 model just because it's prettier, has an extra vent, and weighs maybe 6 ounces less. If you've got the cash to do so and like having a bunch of helmets, go full-on gear queer and help keep the shops in business. And yeah don't blow your wad on the helmet straight away if you're a newbie. e: Tanbo: ouch. That is exactly why I paid a little more and got a kevlar/epoxy shelled one for my first helmet rather than a cheaper all-acrylic. Wasn't thinking after class one day, started the bike up before putting my helmet on, and it vibrated straight onto the ground and bounced off the helmet's crown. The "drop it once and it's done" may be more rumor than fact, but I knew I was going to do something dumb eventually. Kilersquirrel fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 17:29
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n8r posted:I find this comment deliciously ironic. Why? You stated that Sagebrush was wrong, which he wasn't. Safety-wise any helmet rated Snell / CE is basically safe to use according to all of the data we have, and DOT should be taken with a pinch of salt because they don't test. My primary requirement of a helmet is that it meets basic safety standards, if this is met, it comes down to comfort. I got the Shoei because they are apparently the only manufacturer that supports my head shape / size. It's not even that light or quiet for the price. ReelBigLizard fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 17:30
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ReelBigLizard posted:I got the Shoei because they are apparently the only manufacturer that supports my head shape / size. It's not even that light or quiet for the price. You must be a petite asian woman, because there is not a single Shoei (or Arai, for that matter) I have ever found that fits me(and I'm not a fat guy). Fuckers need to start branching out on what hemisphere their head models come from, I'd buy their stuff but my nose and cheekbones need to not feel like they're in a vice. Call it the "European" line or something, I don't care.
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Aug 5, 2014 17:38
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Kilersquirrel posted:You must be a petite asian woman, because there is not a single Shoei (or Arai, for that matter) I have ever found that fits me(and I'm not a fat guy). Fuckers need to start branching out on what hemisphere their head models come from, I'd buy their stuff but my nose and cheekbones need to not feel like they're in a vice. Call it the "European" line or something, I don't care. The opposite - I have a fat Anglo-Norman head and Shoei XL is the perfect fit.
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Aug 5, 2014 17:43
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n8r posted:
I didn't bother reading your whole post because it was long as poo poo, but I need to address this point because I don't want new riders getting the wrong impression. Yes, getting a full faced helmet protects your head a lot, but the most protection you can give your head is to never ride a motorcycle in the first place. Make sure you present all the facts next time.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:06
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Ooooh, an r^2 value of .063! That's barely better than random!
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Aug 5, 2014 18:22
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Kilersquirrel posted:You must be a petite asian woman, because there is not a single Shoei (or Arai, for that matter) I have ever found that fits me(and I'm not a fat guy). Fuckers need to start branching out on what hemisphere their head models come from, I'd buy their stuff but my nose and cheekbones need to not feel like they're in a vice. Call it the "European" line or something, I don't care. Big round Anglo-Irish head here and my (L or XL I can't remember) Arai RXQ fits my head like a tailored suit. I tried on the entire price range from HJC/Scorpion up to Shoei/Arai, and the Arai fit me best. I can wear it all day long and barely know it's there.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:25
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I gotta be honest, arguing about how much Buells don't suck is a lot more fun then helmet slapfights.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:29
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Safety Dance posted:Ooooh, an r^2 value of .063! That's barely better than random! Yeah, no offense, but that correlation is loving weak.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:30
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Chichevache posted:I didn't bother reading your whole post because it was long as poo poo, but I need to address this point because I don't want new riders getting the wrong impression. Yes, getting a full faced helmet protects your head a lot, but the most protection you can give your head is to never ride a motorcycle in the first place. Oh, yes, guilty (that's n8r quoting me, not his own opinion). HOWEVER I need to point out back to you that actually, the most protection you can give your head is to never ride a motorcycle in the first place and to wear a boutique Ruby full-face helmet at all times. (I specify the Ruby because at $2,000 it's at least 4 times as safe as a $500 Shoei). ShaneB posted:Basically n8 is voicing the opinion of a silent majority who are sick of you answering every question asked in this thread with information based on your extreme wealth of experience on the road and a quick google search. I had some stuff typed up questioning this "silent majority"  but instead I'm just going to say this: prove me wrong! Find the last post where I gave objectively wrong advice.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:32
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Sagebrush posted:I had some stuff typed up questioning this "silent majority" I'm basically saying you act like someone's autistic nephew who has read a lot of books and forum posts and reviews on motorcycling and insists on regurgitating what he has read without much prompting or experience.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:36
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Radbot posted:Yeah, no offense, but that correlation is loving weak. Not like it's my analysis but I don't think there's any other one out there to even look at. A quick glance at the scatter plot would show that it's pretty random, but if you're pulling $100 and $500 helmets out of a hat and crashing in them I'm still picking the 500 dollar hat. That said if you're going to spend money on something to protect your head you should probably just do some basic research first and not pick it out of a hat.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:38
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This plot demonstrates that not only can the cheapest helmets have very high safety values but that there are a greater number of cheap helmets with these ratings than their expensive counterparts. In fact, there appears to be a $100 (yes GBP, whatever) that is probably statistically equivalent to a $600+ helmet. Not to mention that helmets are constantly being placed on clearance so what may be your dickwaving $600 helmet today will be a $200 blowout tomorrow. Price is a subjective and inaccurate method of "ranking" helmets though I'm aware it's one of the most convenient for comparative purposes. There are so many factors involved in a crash that it's somewhat ridiculous to argue with each other who is "right". This is a stupid loving derail because it's entirely based on someone misrepresenting the words of another to support their own grudge or vendetta or whatever weird poo poo n8r jerks it to every night on SA.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:44
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How many helmets are <200GBP and <2 Stars? How many helmets are >200GBP and <2 Stars? Pretty hard to get a lovely helmet if you spend 200GBP or more.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:53
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That's a questionable interpretation of that plot.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:56
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Kilersquirrel posted:You must be a petite asian woman, because there is not a single Shoei (or Arai, for that matter) I have ever found that fits me(and I'm not a fat guy). Fuckers need to start branching out on what hemisphere their head models come from, I'd buy their stuff but my nose and cheekbones need to not feel like they're in a vice. Call it the "European" line or something, I don't care. Awesome. I now know I have a petite asian woman's head on the rest of my gawky rear end frame. Arai Quantum 2 in Small was the only helmet that came remotely close to fitting me.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:56
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n8r posted:How many helmets are <200GBP and <2 Stars? You're totally right dude. My mistake.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:57
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Radbot posted:That's a questionable interpretation of that plot. How so?
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Aug 5, 2014 18:57
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That plot says, to me, that price/safety correlation is weak (the r^2 value). Therefore you can't make conclusions about price implying safety.
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Aug 5, 2014 19:01
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ShaneB posted:I'm basically saying you act like someone's autistic nephew who has read a lot of books and forum posts and reviews on motorcycling and insists on regurgitating what he has read without much prompting or experience. Okay? This doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, put me on ignore. This isn't your private forum. Try to be more positive! I know this is the Something AWFUL forums and all but it's more pleasant for the people who are coming here for information when it's a big hugbox instead of a bunch of bitter sarcastic folks posting one-line responses because they're ~so angsty~
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Aug 5, 2014 19:03
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Is it true that gold face shields help you see better at night? I have heard this several times, but I'm calling complete and utter bullshit on it.
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Aug 5, 2014 19:14
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Motorcycle Question Thread II: Less chatting and more Sagebrush
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Aug 5, 2014 19:17
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Radbot posted:That plot says, to me, that price/safety correlation is weak (the r^2 value). Therefore you can't make conclusions about price implying safety. Eyeballing the graph it appears that if you spend <200GBP on a helmet you've got about a 10% chance of getting a sub 2 star helmet. Above 200GBP you've got about a 2% chance. These SHARP ratings are confusing as poo poo because they are very quiet about the difference between a 1 star helmet or 5 star helmet at least from looking at their website for two minutes. At least according to the SHARP rating system there are a lot of good inexpensive helmets.
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Aug 5, 2014 19:21
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I've used gold face shields. What they do is similar to gold sun glasses, they dampen the light and give it a blueish tone. Compared to a regular tinted shield they are better with lower light, but it still lowers the light. How could a tint let more light through than a clear blank visor? Pure bullshit.
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Aug 5, 2014 19:23
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Minkee posted:Is it true that gold face shields help you see better at night? You're filtering out light with a tinted visor when light is already at a minimum... do the math 
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Aug 5, 2014 19:25
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Amber/gold tinted visors can increase perceived contrast, but they obviously don't increase the amount of light coming through. That's why a lot of ski goggles have amber/gold tint.
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Aug 5, 2014 19:28
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Motorcycle Question Thread II: Less chatting and more Sagebrush I apparently do have quite an impact on this place, I'll give you that
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Aug 5, 2014 19:29
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Guinness posted:Big round Anglo-Irish head here and my (L or XL I can't remember) Arai RXQ fits my head like a tailored suit. I tried on the entire price range from HJC/Scorpion up to Shoei/Arai, and the Arai fit me best. I can wear it all day long and barely know it's there. mungtor posted:Awesome. I now know I have a petite asian woman's head on the rest of my gawky rear end frame. Arai Quantum 2 in Small was the only helmet that came remotely close to fitting me. Blocky-headed German family stock here, my cheekbones feel like they're in a vise or the upper part of my temples do with all the Shoei and Arai helmets I've ever tried on. They seem to have forgotten some of us have noses, too. Thus far the Scorpions have fit my humongous square melon the best but I'm More seriously, anybody on the modular helmet question?
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Aug 5, 2014 19:32
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