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There is no way Ambrose is the king he's gonna kill. It's just too convenient. Personally I think it's gonna be the King of Vintas since his sword's name is for the break in a Vintas line and the tree killed a butterfly with the same colors as Vintas' king. Short of a King Ralph-esque tragedy, I don't think Ambrose will be sitting on the throne anytime soon. Maybe he's king in the present day or something though. I don't know...
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Aug 5, 2014 16:01
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Like other posters, I just don't think a big twist based on unreliable narration would work this far into the series. There's just a flat statement that legends can be based on wild exaggeration but sometimes aren't. This isn't particularly deep so it's rightly set up and gone over quickly (and then repeated over and over  ).There's been no growing unease between Kvothe's narrative and the real world, and with one book left there's no room to build it either. We've spent a tiny fraction of the books looking at why the once-in-an-era savant is serving drinks, and by now that isn't what readers are invested in. We care about the Moon, the Chandrian, etc just as much as Kvothe's fuckup. Suddenly making them secondary to an unreliable narrator plotline, or worse, saying that they were all a dream, wouldn't work at all any more.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:48
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Strategic Tea posted:with one book left You really think he'll stop at 3?
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Aug 5, 2014 22:03
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thespaceinvader posted:You really think he'll stop at 3? If the contract with the reader is broken and the king killer chronicle isn't resolved on the third night, I will stop at 3.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:31
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thespaceinvader posted:You really think he'll stop at 3? Unreliable narrator
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Aug 5, 2014 22:35
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the JJ posted:Like there's a lot of poo poo to criticize, the main character being a boring Sue who is perfect in every way isn't one of them. And while 'the main character seems like a dumbass' is a perfectly fair statement, I don[t think that makes it a bad story because I generally dislike stories about perfect Sues. See, that's what I don't get about this whole arguing back and forth about him being an unreliable narrator or not. The main character being a boring Sue who is perfect in every way is definitely something to criticise! It doesn't matter if it's done on purpose because "ooh unreliable narrator", if it's still absolutely horrible to read all that poo poo about how great he is at sexing the sex goddess or becoming a ninja or every amazing thing he does, then what's the point? At some point you have to look at it and think, okay even if it is an unreliable narrator what difference is it making? If he lied about the whole thing then why the hell did we have to read all that? Why didn't he just make an actual interesting main character?
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Aug 5, 2014 23:42
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Laverna posted:See, that's what I don't get about this whole arguing back and forth about him being an unreliable narrator or not. The main character being a boring Sue who is perfect in every way is definitely something to criticise! It doesn't matter if it's done on purpose because "ooh unreliable narrator", if it's still absolutely horrible to read all that poo poo about how great he is at sexing the sex goddess or becoming a ninja or every amazing thing he does, then what's the point? Some people have different views and opinions than you do about what is interesting or not.
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Aug 6, 2014 02:35
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Chichevache posted:Some people have different views and opinions than you do about what is interesting or not.
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Aug 6, 2014 03:27
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Above Our Own posted:He's right though in that an unreliable narrator does absolutely nothing to address some of the main problems with the story. That's cool. He was complaining about the character not being interesting though.
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Aug 6, 2014 03:41
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Above Our Own posted:He's right though in that an unreliable narrator does absolutely nothing to address some of the main problems with the story. Yeah I don know who is arguing unreliable narrator. No one is saying that I don't think. I think there has been a real sense that Kvothe is both really talented and a dumbass and we KNOW he, for all his Sueiness, is taking a pass on sorting out apocalypse because he's broken. No one (I don't think) is waiting for a magic twist to get there. Old, narrating, Kvothe has taken the time to point out his own faults (complete and utter recklessness and an inability to process social situations like normal people) and while he's going over all the bits where he hosed sex ninjas he's also going over the bits where he hosed up big time by being a dumbass. I don't think expecting the story to cover how he ended up a broken man while the world falls apart around him is a big ask nor do I feel, know that he ends up stuck doing nothing, that the author intends for us to all go "woo Kvothe's so cool and awesome and he only has problems because everyone else is all jealous." I think, give that we know he's a gently caress up, we should read the story that way, and to me that makes the whole woo sex ninjas bearable (ish) because the prose is okay and I am expecting (and have gotten) some payoff on the promise of "typical über protagonist ends up a broken man because of his own flaws"
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Aug 6, 2014 05:11
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Chichevache posted:Some people have different views and opinions than you do about what is interesting or not. Yeah, that's true. I guess I just prefer main characters who I can actually get invested in. It's hard to read a book when you don't care about what's going to happen to him or his love interest. I really liked some of the minor characters though, it's a shame they weren't in there more. I see a lot of people defending it by pointing out that he's a failure in the "the present", but I dunno, I feel like the story of him getting to that point would have to be really good to make up for the rest of the story so far. (Yes, this is just my opinion. Some people like mary sue characters and that's perfectly fine!)
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Aug 6, 2014 12:49
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Chichevache posted:That's cool. He was complaining about the character not being interesting though. The world and some of the stuff in it is pretty cool but Kvothe is boring as hell as a main character (trigger warning: opinion).
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Aug 6, 2014 18:06
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thespaceinvader posted:You really think he'll stop at 3? Haha no. There will be some hand wringing in a blog post about how the story deserves larger treatment and how much more there is to be told that the fans want to hear etcetc. The end result will be a bunch more Kvothe books.
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Aug 6, 2014 18:13
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The Gunslinger posted:Haha no. There will be some hand wringing in a blog post about how the story deserves larger treatment and how much more there is to be told that the fans want to hear etcetc. The end result will be a bunch more Kvothe books. Rothfuss will become the new GRRM.
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Aug 6, 2014 18:21
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Above Our Own posted:So people have different opinions about things. Let's go ahead and shut down discussion then, is what you're saying? I don't know why you're so offended by me making a point. His argument was that Kvothe and Mary Sue characters are boring and he wanted to know why Rothfuss didn't make an interesting character. Sometimes people need to be reminded that interests are subjective and that while the Mary Sue character may not work for him, it does work for others.
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Aug 6, 2014 18:31
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I got the impression that there was a gradual shift in the perception vs. reality dynamic being purposefully set up as the over-arching mechanic of the trilogy. That is to say, book 1 has Kvothe's legend exaggerating his actual deeds while book 2 has his deeds and legend being accurate representations of each other. I've kind of been expecting the third book to go the next step and have the legend influencing his deeds. Explore the idea that other people's perceptions of him start influencing his life in some magical/intrinsic way or affecting his Name - with a capital N - such that he starts losing control of his agency. I kind of figured that's what happened to the Chandrian and why they're trying to remove all stories of themselves and have Denna introduce reimagined stories into the population's consciousness. Magical PR so they can modify the nature of themselves. Kvothe swore on his "name, power and good left hand" that he wouldn't try to discover Denna's patron. Then, in the frame story, he seems to be missing his name, power and function of his left hand. A normal person wouldn't be affected by nonsensically swearing on something. At least, that promise wouldn't be magically enforced by fate or the universe or whatever. But someone who was affected by storybook logic might. The deep magic of the world is Naming; the fundamental essence of a thing represented and embodied by an unpronounceable word. That primal magic system underneath everything is a mechanism to directly change or control the nature of things. I figure the more people know your Name - or at least understand a part of it - through rumor and legend, the more you would be affected by the public perception of you.
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Aug 6, 2014 18:38
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Kvothe isn't a Sue. He is a Horatio Hornblower type. It is certainly a type of power fantasy that doesn't work for everyone. That's an interesting point organism. I hadn't thought of it as a shift like that, but it fits. It would certainly add a bit of context to why Bast is trying to steer the story in a certain way. It's not just to cheer up his friend. There is a literal metaphysical rejiggering aspect. Naming is a deep magic of the world, yeah, but so is Shaping. Naming seems to work by understanding and being at peace with the fundamental nature of reality. Given Denna's questions about magic that works by just writing something down and making it so, I assume shaping is imposing your will on the fundamentals. I wonder if Kvothe didn't just gently caress up and change his name, but was also Shaped in some way.
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Aug 6, 2014 18:48
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I don't know if this has been linked before, I've been reading this thread for a while now and I don't remember seeing it, but here's a good article on Kvothe's Mary Sue-ness: http://cboye.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/kvothe-a-mary-sue-case-study/ It's worth reading. And this was written before the sex goddess and double sex ninja escapades with inherent excuse for Kvothe not having to worry about responsibility for pregnancy. I enjoyed Name of the Wind a lot when I read it first, but was very disappointed with Wise Man's Fear, and the more I look back on the entire series so far I like it less and less. I don't think a third book will salvage it at this point, no matter how good his prose is. I will probably end up buying the book anyway, on sale if nothing else.
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Aug 6, 2014 23:00
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Chichevache posted:I don't know why you're so offended by me making a point. His argument was that Kvothe and Mary Sue characters are boring and he wanted to know why Rothfuss didn't make an interesting character. Sometimes people need to be reminded that interests are subjective and that while the Mary Sue character may not work for him, it does work for others. And nobody anywhere needs to be reminded that people have subjective tastes, that's the most banal poo poo ever.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:03
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Rythian posted:I don't know if this has been linked before, I've been reading this thread for a while now and I don't remember seeing it, but here's a good article on Kvothe's Mary Sue-ness: http://cboye.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/kvothe-a-mary-sue-case-study/ It's worth reading. And this was written before the sex goddess and double sex ninja escapades with inherent excuse for Kvothe not having to worry about responsibility for pregnancy. I didn't read through all of that article but so far it sums up my impression of the books quite well. I'd completely forgotten about one of those points; the thing that stood out to me the most when I read the books was that nothing bad ever actually happens to him. The only really bad thing is his parents dying and that's for the sake of a plot point. Pretty much everything else he recovers from quickly or uses to his advantage. (It's been a while since I read them, so I can't remember specific examples, that was just what I remember my thoughts being right after I did read it)
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Aug 7, 2014 00:44
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Chichevache posted:I don't know why you're so offended by me making a point. His argument was that Kvothe and Mary Sue characters are boring and he wanted to know why Rothfuss didn't make an interesting character. Sometimes people need to be reminded that interests are subjective and that while the Mary Sue character may not work for him, it does work for others. Some opinions are lovely. Like if you think that women are inferior to men or white people are smarter than black people. That's an opinion that you can have, but it's also reasonable for us to call you out on your lovely beliefs. We're not talking about a 16 year old's fan fiction, we're talking about a book that's getting compared to Tolkien and inducted into the genre's cannon. Mary Sues are lovely characters because they don't develop. They just add to their already staggeringly long list of talents. When your characters are good at nearly everything any conflict that actually provides difficulty for them is likely to be overly contrived - all these people who just hate Kvothe "because" and who we're clearly supposed to take a assholes. Take Hemme and Kvothe. The guy hates Kvothe from the very beginning for no real reason and treats him like poo poo. We're supposed to see him as a villain - and he's a particularly one dimensional one. When he has his big "why don't YOU teach the class" scene (which comes after him doing some stock bad guy stuff like the "gates of hell" bit) we're supposed to think Kvothe is the man for schooling him. This is reinforced when the other instructors bust his balls after the fact. Both he and Kvothe would be wildly more interesting characters if Kvothe had tried to be a smug smartass about how he's too smart for the class, and Hemme just shut him down by asking him to be quite and giving him a "see me after class" wherein he exasperatedly explained how loving school works. That's the thing. Kvothe's only actual flaw is that he's a smug rear end in a top hat, but pretty much everyone who treated him poorly for being a smug rear end in a top hat is presented as a bad person, so it really nullifies it. Karnegal fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 21:12
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Karnegal posted:
It would've been still better if Kvothe had gotten up in front of the class, rambled incoherently for a while, looked like a hot mess, and gotten made fun of for the rest of the month by everyone at the school, which is what would actually happen in that "Why don't YOU teach the class"..."FINE I WILL!" scenario in a university setting (regardless of how much of a prodigy the kid was). But of course Kvothe can't be allowed to look that incompetent, even in fields where he would not have any expertise or experience to speak of, like pedagogy. There are ways to make hyper-talented polymath prodigies fun to read, it's just that Rothfuss does not employ any of them. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 21:44
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But Kvothe really did already know the content of the class; Abenthy had taught him all that stuff already. And Kvothe was a stage performer; there's every reason to expect that he really could get up and give a short lecture over a topic he was very familiar with.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:56
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Been ages since I read it but didn't the entire class stand up and applaud after he gave the lecture too? Oi.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:16
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jivjov posted:But Kvothe really did already know the content of the class; Abenthy had taught him all that stuff already. And Kvothe was a stage performer; there's every reason to expect that he really could get up and give a short lecture over a topic he was very familiar with.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:35
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Above Our Own posted:These are contrivances of the author, not reasons that really stand on their own. A major flaw in the story, in my opinion, is that we are told over and over that Kvothe is super intelligent but rarely shown it. I don't know about that. We're told Kvothe is talented, book smart, and clever in those cheap trick ways. But he's also stubborn and childish, and really not very street smart. He doesn't say the latter while telling the story, but it's apparent in his actions. Those are not opposing characteristics.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:42
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PupsOfWar posted:It would've been still better if Kvothe had gotten up in front of the class, rambled incoherently for a while, looked like a hot mess, and gotten made fun of for the rest of the month by everyone at the school, which is what would actually happen in that "Why don't YOU teach the class"..."FINE I WILL!" scenario in a university setting (regardless of how much of a prodigy the kid was). But of course Kvothe can't be allowed to look that incompetent, even in fields where he would not have any expertise or experience to speak of, like pedagogy. Would that necessarily have been better? More realistic, maybe, but I personally don't think I would have enjoyed reading it. Cringe humour doesn't really work in a written medium so it would just have been... cringey. I think a real Mary Sue would have got up and given a class which showed Hemme that he knew his stuff and would have resulted in Hemme adoring him and an immediate promotion to a more difficult class. That would have been really bad writing. At least in the text as it stands Kvothe got in trouble for what he did, and that's what drove the story forward. I'm not disagreeing that Mary Sues are bad, but I'm not sure Kvothe qualifies because he does get himself into trouble fairly often and thus there is a story. Mary Sues (as least the way I've seen the term used) are perfect, everyone falls in love with them immediately, the entire story that they're in is likely to be wish-fulfilment romance and thus pretty boring. I'm not saying there aren't problems with Rothfuss's writing (Denna... Felurian...) but we don't all agree on what they are or how they would best be improved. That's not shutting down discussion.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:44
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Rurutia posted:I don't know about that. We're told Kvothe is talented, book smart, and clever in those cheap trick ways. But he's also stubborn and childish, and really not very street smart. He doesn't say the latter while telling the story, but it's apparent in his actions. Those are not opposing characteristics. Maud Moonshine posted:Mary Sues (as least the way I've seen the term used) are perfect, everyone falls in love with them immediately, the entire story that they're in is likely to be wish-fulfilment romance and thus pretty boring.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:48
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Above Our Own posted:A comparison I've made before is GRRM's Tyrion, who is touted as clever and actually says and does clever things. I think it's a weakness of the author, but Kvothe doesn't ever really do anything that seemed brilliant to me as a reader. The coolest thing he's ever done was when he was out ranging with the group of scouts, they came across the bandit camps, and Kvothe panicked and just grabbed a dead body and starting mutilating the poo poo out of it using sympathy to link to the living bandits and kill them. That's when everyone in the group started avoiding him except for the sex ninja who was aroused by his prowess.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:06
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Maud Moonshine posted:Would that necessarily have been better? More realistic, maybe, but I personally don't think I would have enjoyed reading it. Cringe humour doesn't really work in a written medium so it would just have been... cringey. I think a real Mary Sue would have got up and given a class which showed Hemme that he knew his stuff and would have resulted in Hemme adoring him and an immediate promotion to a more difficult class. That would have been really bad writing. At least in the text as it stands Kvothe got in trouble for what he did, and that's what drove the story forward. Yeah, isn't that the point though? Everyone loves him except for the stereotypical baddies that just dislike him.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:36
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Maud Moonshine posted:Would that necessarily have been better? More realistic, maybe, but I personally don't think I would have enjoyed reading it. Cringe humour doesn't really work in a written medium so it would just have been... cringey. I think a real Mary Sue would have got up and given a class which showed Hemme that he knew his stuff and would have resulted in Hemme adoring him and an immediate promotion to a more difficult class. That would have been really bad writing. At least in the text as it stands Kvothe got in trouble for what he did, and that's what drove the story forward. Mary Sues aren't utterly perfect. They wouldn't work at all even in fan fiction if they were because then they're just omnipotent dieties. What they are, are characters that have a ridiculously long list of talents -many of which are attained through native aptitude. If they do have to work at something they usually achieve it much faster than normal because of their special nature. They pretty much always have whatever skills they need in a given situation. So, for example, if they're stranded in the woods, either they have some master survival skills or they intuitively know what to do (sound like someone we know?). Essentially, the more special and singular your character is, the more likely that they're a Mary Sue. The problem is amplified when they lack real credible weaknesses. Kvothe's weaknesses are being bad with women (demonstrably untrue from the get go) and he's an arrogant poo poo (which never gets him in real lasting trouble). Sure, maybe we'll see him catch some poo poo in book 3, but that's a long way to go with no character development. Talented characters are perfectly fine, but the issue is characters whose talents are so all-encompassing that there isn't much of anything out there that can actually present them with a real meaningful challenge. Their range is also problematic because it reeks of juvenile wish fulfillment "my character is a great singer, and a sword-fighter, and a chef, OH and his grandfather was actually a king, and he knows magic, and he trained with some ninjas, and he can see at night, and..." It's just a list of unrelated talents. In reality, you only have so much time to get good at things. Mary Sues on the other hand are good at a ton of wildly disparate things. Kvothe is a Mary Sue because he always has the skills and knowledge necessary to get out of pretty much any situation without aid. I know how to do a lot of things, but there are plenty of situations where my knowledge and skills will require me to seek aid. If my car gets hit, I probably don't know how to fix it. I need to get around, that's a problem that I'll need to go to someone else to fix. Kvothe doesn't really have these situations. His REAL problems (not the bullshit "I wish I had more money" wanking) are pretty much all related to the Chandrian. To date, we've yet to see any real compelling evidence that anyone HAS that information. So if it's a weakness it's one that everyone has. Where the 2nd book REALLY emphasized this problem was in Kvothe's insane feats of prowess. He was overpowered and talented in the first book, but there was still a little bit of Kvothe overcomes things by being clever (spying on other students' interviews). In the 2nd book, he really does just use ancient powerful magic on a scale that only a handful of people in the world believe in outside of stories, and he really does just woo an ancient sex deity with his smooth virgin gently caress skill.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:46
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Karnegal posted:he really does just woo an ancient sex deity with his smooth virgin gently caress skill. Everybody says this, I don't know how you could read it that way. He Names her, there's this whole bit about it, it's in weird poetic language. He sings four notes that he reads from her instinctively or something like that. It's not explicitly said, but it's obvious. That chapter is cringe worthy, but not for that reason.
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Aug 8, 2014 01:32
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SolTerrasa posted:Everybody says this, I don't know how you could read it that way. He Names her, there's this whole bit about it, it's in weird poetic language. He sings four notes that he reads from her instinctively or something like that. It's not explicitly said, but it's obvious. Yeah but following that the sex deity falls for him and crafts him all sorts of magic items and also takes such a shine to him that she let's him go as an example of how good of good she is at sex.
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Aug 8, 2014 01:36
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SolTerrasa posted:Everybody says this, I don't know how you could read it that way. He Names her, there's this whole bit about it, it's in weird poetic language. He sings four notes that he reads from her instinctively or something like that. It's not explicitly said, but it's obvious. Or if she basically had to because he called her True Name, that's an even bigger 
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Aug 8, 2014 02:13
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SolTerrasa posted:Everybody says this, I don't know how you could read it that way. He Names her, there's this whole bit about it, it's in weird poetic language. He sings four notes that he reads from her instinctively or something like that. It's not explicitly said, but it's obvious. Yeah - he stops her with her true name - which is bullshit. But then when they're talking he says he's a virgin and she essentially says "BS you're too good at sex to be a virgin." - This is bullshit as well. Calling her name just stops her from magicking him. It doesn't mind control her to think he's great at boning.
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Aug 8, 2014 03:07
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Karnegal posted:Some opinions are lovely. Like if you think that women are inferior to men or white people are smarter than black people. That's an opinion that you can have, but it's also reasonable for us to call you out on your lovely beliefs. We're not talking about a 16 year old's fan fiction, we're talking about a book that's getting compared to Tolkien and inducted into the genre's cannon. That's a whole lot of words to refute a point I never argued, but ok.
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Aug 8, 2014 04:20
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Karnegal posted:Yeah - he stops her with her true name - which is bullshit. I'll always remember the Penny Arcade news post where Tycho(or Gabe, the literate one) mentioned how he got a draft copy of Wise Man's Fear to read and offer opinion and was crossing out entire pages with a red marker going "no this is not good what are you doing". Whether or not Rothfuss made the changes, we'll never know. But when a video game webcomic writer savages your book for being fantasy wish-fulfillment you've hosed up.
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Aug 8, 2014 04:40
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pentyne posted:I'll always remember the Penny Arcade news post where Tycho(or Gabe, the literate one) mentioned how he got a draft copy of Wise Man's Fear to read and offer opinion and was crossing out entire pages with a red marker going "no this is not good what are you doing". I don't think Penny Arcade are the guys you should look to for literary criticism.
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Aug 8, 2014 05:32
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Karnegal posted:Mary Sues aren't utterly perfect. They wouldn't work at all even in fan fiction if they were because then they're just omnipotent dieties. What they are, are characters that have a ridiculously long list of talents -many of which are attained through native aptitude. If they do have to work at something they usually achieve it much faster than normal because of their special nature. They pretty much always have whatever skills they need in a given situation. So, for example, if they're stranded in the woods, either they have some master survival skills or they intuitively know what to do (sound like someone we know?). Essentially, the more special and singular your character is, the more likely that they're a Mary Sue. The problem is amplified when they lack real credible weaknesses. Kvothe's weaknesses are being bad with women (demonstrably untrue from the get go) and he's an arrogant poo poo (which never gets him in real lasting trouble). Sure, maybe we'll see him catch some poo poo in book 3, but that's a long way to go with no character development. Yeah, I agree with this. I don't see how any one could try to claim that he isn't a Mary Sue, because he's pretty much a textbook definition of the term. There is no way someone could write a character so obviously Sue-ish and not realise what they've done, especially not someone who's been on the internet before in their lifetime. And I'm sure any basic writing training will tell you about how important character flaws are. That's the main thing that kept me hopeful when I was reading the books, but after a certain amount of time (two books) with absolutely no change to this (just getting worse, in fact) then what is that change worth at this stage? It would have to be so good that it goes back and redeems the other two books. Look at it this way, if you were going to make the most over-the-top mocking Mary Sue, which stereotypical boxes would you tick off? I'd want him to look special, let's go stunningly red hair. And green eyes, they go so well together! But I don't know which shade, let's have them change colour depending on mood. I really want him to be a great swordsman. No wait, a wizard. No, a ninja. Screw it, he can be all of them. What are my favourite things to read about in fantasy stories? I want him to be part of a travelling gypsy group, those are always interesting. But I also want him to be a thief and a singer and an actor and an orphan and, oh one person can be all of those. That's not overkill, is it? Nah. I just can't believe that he wrote a character like that completely unaware. There must be more to it. And that's where the question is, is this on purpose as a way to tear down the idea of a Mary Sue as proven by his state in the present part of the story or is it just wish-fulfillment? edit: I apologise for all the words. I didn't realise it'd be this long.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:10
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Benson Cunningham posted:I don't think Penny Arcade are the guys you should look to for literary criticism. I really feel like the PA guys (or at least the one who draws the strip) and Rothfuss are kindred souls. Neither of them have gotten over high school/college, despite their success. Laverna posted:
If you're a SF/Fantasy fan and you've tried your hand at writing before, you've probably written a Sue at some point. I certainly did. Only I did it in high school, and it got buried in my hard drive instead of getting published and hailed as one of the greatest current works in the genre. This is his first book and he started it right out of high school or there abouts. I think he's just not as good of a writer as he's been made out to be. He took what, a decade to write the first book. And that book wasn't great, but it seemed like he had potential to be better with what he had learned. I sort of assumed, hey it's his first book and it probably has a lot of artifacts due to being 10 years of writing. But book 2 pretty much showed that he isn't a significantly better writer for all of that time. If anything he needed more time to get it to the same level as the first book. I doubt book 3 is going to be some masterstroke. Karnegal fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 08:38
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