|
So what shall we call the new republic?
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 09:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:39 |
|
|
I really wish we could just convert to Gallicinism, as when France takes Defender of the Faith they're going to jump in on so many wars in Europe against us that it's going to be painful. >.< That said: ##Vote A.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 09:34
|
|
|
Rincewind posted:Yeah, anyone can vote! You don't need to have joined a party or participated in Senate sessions or whenever. I can't really blame people for just skimming over Senate sessions at this point. Be right back, calling my ventrillo buddies to tilt the vote.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 09:43
|
|
|
  I ##vote C. Rome has changed in the past. Once it was pagan. Simply because we change once more, to the better, doesn't mean we spit and reject all we were before. Do the Orthodox members of the senate spit on the likes of Marcus Aurelius, Augustus, Scipio Africanus? Pagans all of them. In a similar vein, Islam will be an enrichement of Rome, but muslim Romans are still Romans. And I still take pride in all of Rome's greatness, even as I strive to make it greater still.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 10:23
|
|
|
##Vote A It makes me kinda sad to see downward trajectory the church has taken since we mended the schism, but I guess I should have just expected it. We just seem to destroy everything we love.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 10:30
|
|
|
If C has no chance, I'll change my vote to ##B.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 10:49
|
|
|
Cestrian posted:If C has no chance, I'll change my vote to ##B. Actually, C is doing relatively well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 11:08
|
|
|
 Sentator Ettore Ratoslov has clearly had quite a bit to drink before the goblet of wine he's currently sloshing around. We just got out of a ridiculous period of unrest and now we're talking about converting? Starting a holy war just for shits and giggles? gently caress it. Let's just run this empire straight into the ground! Open all the flood gates and let blood poor through the streets! Let us face to the blood-shed and dehumanize ourselves like dogs or Frenchmen! I don't even care anymore. I'll just console myself with the great big piles of gold I'll get making cannons and arequebuses for the inevitable holy wars that's going to happen. May God have mercy upon us all, because the public won't. ##Vote B
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 11:12
|
|
|
  My friends, these are truly some of the direst straits our Empire has found itself in in centuries. The Orthodox Church, the institutional building block that our New Empire has depended on more than ever since Saint Valeria mended the schism, is under fire. I have promised, as a leader of Monternos, to push for progress, to keep the Empire always moving forward, for to stagnate in today's world, after the so-called the dark ages, is a death sentence for a state. But I also promised to temper my attempts to progress the Empire, particularly in instances when progress may come at a cost that would compromise core values of Rome. Few values are more core than the Orthodox Church. I feel for the little people out there. They desperately seek guidance which they think the Church cannot give them. My heart weeps for them and wants to give in, if only to help ease their pain. But would that really change anything, uprooting so many central building blocks of culture for the sake of a brief easing of pain? Instead, I say we should teach them. Prove them wrong, show them that Rome can chart a way forward without throwing its history in the gutter. Vote ##A. And, ahem, besides, records clearly state that one of my ancestors founded the original incarnation of the Milvians, and I have reason to believe that he may haunt me if I turned my back on the Church so completely.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 11:14
|
|
|
  Oh dear. I did say I wasn't a fan of the Unitas religious platform, correct? Our policies of tolerance and religious egalitarianism have been a boon to the Empire. And yet, the Peasants' War still happened. We now see Gallicanism and Bogomilism on the rise in reaction to the role we granted the Orthodox church. Ultimately, though we have largely been responsible, forward-thinking arbiters and counselors to the state, we have failed the Roman people. Look at the reactions in this chamber to the Peasants' War itself. Surely we were right to treat the rebels harshly in order to re-stabilize the Empire, but so many seemed to have forgotten that our enemies in that time were still Romans, our brothers and sisters in blood, culture, and language. I would like to say that the great masses of the Empire could still be best served by the Empire adhering to its traditions of both Orthodoxy and tolerance, but these past few years have given lie to that idea both at home and abroad. As times change, so too must Rome. It was Augustus who laid the foundations for the original imperial cult, and Constantine the Great who put us on our current path of Orthodoxy. Now, the people have found their own religion, and the state must change to recognize this. ##Vote B
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 12:05
|
|
|
Kor posted:
That there is the labarum of Constantine, the Chi Rho over three baubles, bourne by Constantine at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. If you would so wantonly pursue heresy, you have no place beneath the Neo-Milvian banner. Recant, or strike your colours.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 12:15
|
|
|
 Too all those of you who preach tolerance, and for that reason vote for Bogomilism, consider this: We are currently Orthodox. So is most of the Empire. For so long as the core of our country remains Orthodox we can pursue tolerant policies, because the heretics are not big in number sufficiently to be problematic. But if we convert, we declare the backbone of Roman society heretical, and that becomes a problem, one that we could only ever possibly address with what you hate most; intolerant, forced conversions. So vote carefully because if you value our traditions of tolerance, then the only vessel that could best carry them is the church and faith in which they developed in the first place and not foreign ones.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 12:24
|
|
|
This thread moves way too fast for me to post in, but I'm reading the updates and goddamn it what kind of Roman Empire are you if you aren't a real, true Orthodox Christian. ##Vote A
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 12:35
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:
OOC: Is it here I mention that, as far as mechanics are translatable into RP, the religion of the provinces are mostly agreed upon to be the upper crust of the province? I.E. the landowners, church-men, bureaucrats, merchant-lords, nobles, etc. For all we know (and from what I can read of the latest post) there are many peasants who already are positive to Bogomilist influences, and from what it sounds like (and what I know of history) the reason most aren't is because of fear of the establishment. Then again, I have no real idea. Let's ask Rincewind if thus is the case, shall we? That said, The Inclusionists  Gurgen II Qutuzid The Bogomilists voice their opinion because they see a problem. And before I make any decision I want to know what the people of Byzantine Rome thinks of this. EDIT: Rincewind posted:This is probably true, more or less, if only because the whole narrative of discontent with the Orthodox establishment among the masses of the peasantry would be very hard to map onto gameplay otherwise. This settles it. The people of Rome has spoken! A conversion to Bogomilism will give the people what they want, a Rome where the voices of the people will be heard! A professional army made up from voluntary soldiers rather than conscripts! A clergy who want to do good rather than gain power! A Rome where everyone can B all that they can B! Luhood fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Aug 7, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 13:11
|
|
|
Luhood posted:OOC: Is it here I mention that, as far as mechanics are translatable into RP, the religion of the provinces are mostly agreed upon to be the upper crust of the province? I.E. the landowners, church-men, bureaucrats, merchant-lords, nobles, etc. For all we know (and from what I can read of the latest post) there are many peasants who already are positive to Bogomilist influences, and from what it sounds like (and what I know of history) the reason most aren't is because of fear of the establishment. Then again, I have no real idea. Let's ask Rincewind if thus is the case, shall we? That said, This is probably true, more or less, if only because the whole narrative of discontent with the Orthodox establishment among the masses of the peasantry would be very hard to map onto gameplay otherwise. EDIT: Also remember that province conversion events to Bogomilism (and Gallicanism!) will keep firing in all Orthodox provinces for a while no matter which religion wins the vote (Although I didn't show every single conversion in the update since it'd just be posting the same dialogue box over and over again, we've already had a whole bunch of provinces flip Gallican, including Florence!) so no matter which option wins we'll be dealing with the heretic malus on tons of provinces. Well, unless C wins. 
Empress Theonora fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Aug 7, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 13:26
|
|
|
Luhood posted:OOC: Is it here I mention that, as far as mechanics are translatable into RP, the religion of the provinces are mostly agreed upon to be the upper crust of the province? I.E. the landowners, church-men, bureaucrats, merchant-lords, nobles, etc. For all we know (and from what I can read of the latest post) there are many peasants who already are positive to Bogomilist influences, and from what it sounds like (and what I know of history) the reason most aren't is because of fear of the establishment. Then again, I have no real idea. Let's ask Rincewind if thus is the case, shall we? That said, OOC: This is generally true in EU4, if only because if it wasn't the ease of religious and cultural conversion makes little or no sense. When you hit the convert button, or the culture convert button, you are essentially replacing the entire local bureaucracy with people of your religion/culture (which I guess destroys local capability of religious or ethnic malcontents from organising any large scale resistance or rebellion). But at the same time it cannot be only that, and province religion is probably a useful guide as to how deep heresies have penetrated the commonfolk of each faith. The narrative paints a picture of the church as a glorified recruitment tool of the state, which pushes the peasants to Bogomilism to avoid being drafted, and while this would likely be true in many cases, we should probably not expect it to be true in all, or even most cases. I'd imagine Bogomilism, as of right now, other than in converted provinces only has any kind of significant penetration in the core provinces involved in the Peasants War where the peasantry was actually bold enough to go up in arms against the Empire for its mass drafting, which if I remember the update screenshots correctly would be western Greece and southwest Anatolia.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 14:00
|
|
|
Also Bogomilism gets fervour, which means you can focus your country on stability. (Which lowers your revolt risk and increases your diplomatic reputation). So, in the narrative, it would actually be what the peasants want and help unite people together if we pick it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 14:06
|
|
|
Cestrian posted:Also Bogomilism gets fervour, which means you can focus your country on stability. (Which lowers your revolt risk and increases your diplomatic reputation). So, in the narrative, it would actually be what the peasants want and help unite people together if we pick it. High Patriarch authority lowers revolt risk more. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 14:37
|
|
|
sniper4625 posted:High Patriarch authority lowers revolt risk more. Which we won't get anyway because some of us favour RP above mere Mechanics! Then again, I have never played with the Fervour mechanics so...
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 14:40
|
|
|
Luhood posted:Which we won't get anyway because some of us favour RP above mere Mechanics! Essentially you get some fervour points a month (from stability, prestige, and so on). You can pay 5 fervour points to activate one of three categories which will then sap 5 fervour a month from war (+15% to morale of armies and navies), trade (+10% to steering and +10% to trade power) and stability (-2 revolt risk +2 diplomatic reputation). If you have 3 stability and high enough prestige it's possible to gain enough fervour points to still have a net gain even with one of the bonuses active, but you can have more than one active at any one time as well. On the other hand, Patriarch Authority is on a slider scale from 0 to 100, and the bonuses (and one penalty) it gives scale with where it is: at 100% PA we get +2 missionary strength, -3 revolt risk, +33% manpower and -33% tax. I have never played an Orthodox game where I wasn't better off with high patriarch authority, and god knows the past updates have shown we need the manpower and revolt risk bonuses. I also find that having the institution of the Church as a complement/competitor with the secular state makes things more interesting, from a narrative perspective, giving another angle to whatever courtly intrigue guides our great Emperors and Empresses to their decisions, but I might be a bit biased.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 14:53
|
|
|
##Vote A Keep Orthodoxy, respect our heritage, I cannot imagine any right mind would argue otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 15:04
|
|
|
##Vote A We should of course make sure that places where the Church moves against its doctrine in inappropriate and corrupt way are corrected.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 15:23
|
|
|
##Vote A We are Orthodoxy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 15:29
|
|
|
As cool sounding as B is, I gotta ##Vote A on this one; Rome without the Orthodoxy is just too weird.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 15:58
|
|
|
##Vote A. We're not going to be pushed around just because people have their own ideas. What kind of Roman Empire are we if we aren't the ones doing the pushing?
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 16:07
|
|
|
Changing my vote to ##A. Again, for reasons of my own that shall remain so.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 16:20
|
|
|
##C
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:01
|
|
|
Kor posted:
You dare use our symbol over your betrayal of the Empire, God, and every faithful citizen? You speak of converting to foul dualistic paganism for the sake of a few mad raiders, but I have covered this before. You speak of doing this as a member of Unitas and the Neo Milvians! We stand for the one true faith, because it is true, right, the only path to heaven! That you want to embrace this pagan creed out of mere concern is pathetic, weak, and unworthy of a Senator. The people have been led astray by these rebel charlatans, and you endorse it? Disgusting! Unitas stands for Mother Church, for what is right, and for what is holy. Stand with us!
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:15
|
|
|
A pillar of Unitas has always been unwavering support for the Mother Church. While we accept a varying degree of actual faith in said body, to reject it entirely in favor of heresy is unthinkable. Faith, Military, Trade. The three pillars of the Empire! Remove but one, and the stability of the entire structure is thrown into doubt.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:22
|
|
|
Lord Cyrahzax posted:
 Your "mother church" is nothing more than a gaggle of douxes in different hats, happily undermining the authority of the Empress and taxing the peasants for a false road to heaven. You speak of weakness, but the only weakness I see is in your position. Only a man unconvinced of the truth of his cause resorts to accusations of sodomy and other personal attacks in what should be a civil chamber of debate. Clayren fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Aug 7, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:23
|
|
|
Clayren posted:
Given that "buggery" derives from Bogomilism (as I learned yesterday), he wouldn't be too far off.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:25
|
|
|
sniper4625 posted:Given that "buggery" derives from Bogomilism (as I learned yesterday), he wouldn't be too far off. ##Form Grammar Nazi Party
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:28
|
|
|
##Join Monternos if that's a thing I can do right now, if not then let it be known that I'd like to etc.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:49
|
|
|
Erwin the German posted:As cool sounding as B is, I gotta ##Vote A on this one; Rome without the Orthodoxy is just too weird. Honestly the one reservation I have about B is that it's really weird. The last update kept talking about "post-Valerian" Orthodoxy, because a Roman Empress made the Orthodox Church what it is at this point. It strains plausibility that a later empress would just shrug and abandon it to embrace a decentralized Gnosticism. Orthodoxy and the Roman state are so intertwined that doubling down on it seems the most likely course of action. On the other hand, there was just the really super precocious assertion of popular power by a Roman citizenry that sees the Orthodox Church as an oppressive arm of state power, and a Roman state that has been using it as exactly this. It's likely that for many people, powerful or not, high or low, the Orthodox Church is an empty shell religion. A state treating a church as its tool can choose to discard it as easily as embrace it if it's no longer useful. And having just fought a war against the defender of that faith lowers its image further. And it's not like Rome doesn't have a tradition of Imperial decrees arbitrarily changing the state religion.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:50
|
|
|
Lord Cyrahzax posted:foul dualistic paganism holy poo poo, i didn't know this was an option! i thought you said the hellenistic pantheon was off the table, rincewind. i'm changing my vote from whatever i had it on to this
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:54
|
|
|
##Vote C for the Crescent and Star!
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 17:58
|
|
|
gently caress yeah Islam! ##Vote C
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 18:19
|
|
|
##Vote A Orthodoxy is besieged upon all sides, and you think the solution is to remove the last bastion of defence it has? While, yes, there are problems with the Church, that is a call for an ecumenical council, not for instability straight after we recover from the bloodiest internal conflict in the previous century. I call upon all members of the party, and the Senate, to join Monternians for Ecumenical Orthodoxy in the West, for the advancement of the faith and the state!
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 18:20
|
|
|
TinTower posted:I call upon all members of the party, and the Senate, to join Monternians for Ecumenical Orthodoxy in the West, for the advancement of the faith and the state! okay, i'll join, as long as i don't have to be a member of monternos or support ecumenical orthodoxy
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 18:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:39 |
|
|
Chwoka posted:okay, i'll join, as long as i don't have to be a member of monternos or support ecumenical orthodoxy It'd be a surprise to find you supported anything.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2014 18:31
|
|