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Was there ever a single point in the entire series that functions in the same way as the Refuse ending? For the life of me, I can't think of another time that players were allowed to choose with anything outside of the dialog wheel. It really paints the Extended Cut in a bit of a spiteful light for me, since it seems like Bioware literally added a whole new mechanic to the game after the fact specifically to tie that ending to the one form of 'protest' that fans gravitated towards. If it was just the dialog option, I could see giving Bioware a pass for just being a bit indelicate with how they handled the option, but the entire package makes it hard as gently caress not to read in a negative tone. 
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Aug 7, 2014 19:33
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| # ? May 30, 2024 01:33 |
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Interrupts are outside the wheel. Choosing to do a mission or not. Choosing where to go in space. Whatever. There are lots of choices which don't involve the dialogue wheel. In the context of the ME3 ending specifically, you shoot something for destroy, no? It's contextually logical. also I think this is reading a bit far into it. It's obvious EC was put together with an eye towards doing it quickly. Being able to shoot things dead is a core element of the entire ME franchise. Adding a 4th button to the level or whatever would require redoing the level geometry and all that. Adding a shoot option and a scripted trigger is copy/paste - the trilogy has to have hundreds of "if shoot, then" triggers in the scripting already. Given that, I think refusal being "shoot the thing" is the easiest viable solution for minimizing development time/budget. I think anyone wanting to read it in a negative tone is predisposed to read it as such, personally. I mean be honest, how does Shep usually reject something? Shooting them or threatening to shoot them. Sometimes, punching. This is not new. Psion fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 19:58
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You're also entirely capable of choosing that option via dialogue, so...
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Aug 7, 2014 20:00
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Refuse should have consisted of you telling Hackett to blow up the loving Citadel with you on it. Take that, you little poo poo!
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Aug 7, 2014 20:03
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Generic American posted:Was there ever a single point in the entire series that functions in the same way as the Refuse ending? For the life of me, I can't think of another time that players were allowed to choose with anything outside of the dialog wheel. It really paints the Extended Cut in a bit of a spiteful light for me, since it seems like Bioware literally added a whole new mechanic to the game after the fact specifically to tie that ending to the one form of 'protest' that fans gravitated towards. If it was just the dialog option, I could see giving Bioware a pass for just being a bit indelicate with how they handled the option, but the entire package makes it hard as gently caress not to read in a negative tone. All four choices require in-game action from the player. Hell, Refuse is the only one that CAN be done via dialogue options alone.
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Aug 7, 2014 20:18
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SubponticatePoster posted:Refuse should have consisted of you telling Hackett to blow up the loving Citadel with you on it. Take that, you little poo poo! and here I honestly thought that was something that would make sense for refusing, you obviously have comms open so just tell them to redirect a few cruisers or even just the Normandy to blow the Citadel to Hell. Sure the Reapers will still just destroy everything but whatever
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Aug 7, 2014 20:24
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I feel posting this youtube video is in order. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPelM2hwhJA It was much worse initially itsjustdrew. Much worse. "Hope you buy some DLC!".
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Aug 7, 2014 20:46
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Raygereio posted:It was a pretty common reaction for people to want to shoot the messenger out of sheer frustration. There were a lot of youtube videos of people doing so in the original ending and a fuckton of forumposts where people said they did the same thing. It makes perfect sense to have the ending built around a futile, hollow philosophical gesture to be triggered with the only futile, hollow philosophical gesture of rejection capable within the game mechanics, within that scene. I get that Bioware have done stuff before that's some sort of passive aggressive response to fan criticism or whatever, though I'm blanking on what, I know there's something on the tip of my tongue, and I get why people would feel that way, but interpreting the refusal ending that way only makes sense logically if you've already decided it's a slight before properly considering it.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:24
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Yeah, the original ending was so horribly insulting. "Here's a bunch of things that make no sense! BUY DLC  "I'd read somewhere 'the ends are bad', but I just assumed it was internet hyperbole. Oh, was I wrong. I was happy to hop onto the internet and discover that everything Mass Effect related was already burning. I just had to grab a torch myself and join in with the infinite mob. Then the extended cut I shot the Star Child, for old times sake, and got the Rejected ending, I was a little amused but not entirely. I was ecstatic with how much they changed in the endings, though, from 'Relays did not blow up' to 'Normandy can still fly!'
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Aug 7, 2014 21:36
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So Casey Hudson apparently left Bioware...
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Aug 7, 2014 21:46
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I just came to post this. On the one hand he was in charge of the Mass Effect series, easily my favorite game series ever. On the other hand, he had a major part to play with the ending of the 3rd game. So it might be good that both parties part from each other to see what's next from both.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:55
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oh thank GOD.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:55
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Well, I hope now that the Mass Effect series can get out from under the yoke of Hudson's reign and get back to the quality it used to be, under Hudson's reign.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:57
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And the axe finally falls. There's no way the suits would let the ending debacle go unanswered.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:57
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Boogle posted:And the axe finally falls. There's no way the suits would let the ending debacle go unanswered. Hahahahaha.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:57
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Aug 7, 2014 21:59
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Dan Didio posted:Hahahahaha. Admittedly they took their time, but he's now albatross for the company.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:00
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Boogle posted:And the axe finally falls. There's no way the suits would let the ending debacle go unanswered. you don't fire someone in August 2014 for a game which came out (to much internet angst) in March 2012. That's stupid. The 'axe' already 'fell' with the apology letter from the founders two years ago. now we'll have lots of speculation about why he left I bet  e: drat it Kurtofan. Dan Didio posted:Well, I hope now that the Mass Effect series can get out from under the yoke of Hudson's reign and get back to the quality it used to be, under Hudson's reign. yeah I'd also like to quote this. Lest we forget, Casey Hudson was the project director of your favorite Mass Effect title. Psion fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 22:01
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I mean I don't really believe this is firing him for ME or anything like that, because the timing is so off. I just think that it'll be healthy for the series to not have him on board.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:04
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Welcome new executive producer, David Gaider.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:09
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Boogle posted:Admittedly they took their time, but he's now albatross for the company. ... Which is why they gave him a whole new project before he got kicked out?
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Aug 7, 2014 22:11
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The thing about the EC that isn't said enough is it is a piece of poo poo. It's actually insulting that Bioware thought it would be enough. Sure it sort of kinda fixed a couple things sorta. But rather than doing a Mea Culpa and actually fixing the ending, they just added more stupid crap on top of a stupid ending.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:18
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The EC is a piece of poo poo for sure. I hate it.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:28
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The Unnamed One posted:... Which is why they gave him a whole new project before he got kicked out? Do we know he got kicked out? Or is this just general leaving the company slang?
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Aug 7, 2014 23:30
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You know what's up
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Aug 7, 2014 23:30
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Drifter posted:Do we know he got kicked out? Or is this just general leaving the company slang? I'm hearing from insider sources that the CEO of EA never got over the addition of thermal clips. Sad, really.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:31
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Dan Didio posted:Ignoring that it's the only logical outcome of making that choice, both thematically and within the fiction of the world and narrative that they had crafted up to that point, you'd have to be clear and away retarded to think that they were being spiteful by taking the time to implement something people had demanded in a way that made sense with the narrative they'd crafted, within their entire, huge, free 'apology' DLC. I agree Dan and I think people who took it as a "gently caress you" are legitimately mentally ill and should immediately seek help
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Aug 7, 2014 23:33
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Fag Boy Jim posted:I agree Dan and I think people who took it as a "gently caress you" are legitimately mentally ill and should immediately seek help I never even considered shooting star child. What does that say about me?
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Aug 7, 2014 23:34
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And now that Hudson's gone, the Mako's coming back. Coincidence? No, Hudson and the EA heads used to get into shouting matches over its exclusion in ME2 and ME3, and the arguments finally came to a head.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:39
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Was it Hudson who was the massive Aria fanboy? If so, I'd like to imagine that he was trying to shoehorn her into an overly important role for ME4 when this happened.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:43
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Der Luftwaffle posted:Was it Hudson who was the massive Aria fanboy? If so, I'd like to imagine that he was trying to shoehorn her into an overly important role for ME4 when this happened. That's Walters, I believe, who is still around. Waltzing Along posted:I never even considered shooting star child. What does that say about me? You never played Fallout or Fallout 2.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:10
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Waltzing Along posted:The thing about the EC that isn't said enough is it is a piece of poo poo. It's actually insulting that Bioware thought it would be enough. Sure it sort of kinda fixed a couple things sorta. But rather than doing a Mea Culpa and actually fixing the ending, they just added more stupid crap on top of a stupid ending. I can only assume that they couldn't go back on the old endings for one reason or another, so they hoped some desperate turd-polishing would suffice for getting people to buy DLC again. It failed because you just can't salvage the nonsense the final act was based on after the fact unless you tear it down and start again, taking them back to square one since the only reason we got "art" was because they didn't actually have anything ready to wrap the story up. It was doomed from the start, but it took off enough of the rage to stop the loudest tirades. Dan Didio posted:That's Walters, I believe, who is still around. He was also behind Cerberus, explaining their ever-expanding role in the story. The guy seems a little too attached to some of his creations. I can only hope he tones it down later.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:12
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art in scarequotes for a thousand pagesGeostomp posted:He was also behind Cerberus, explaining their ever-expanding role in the story. The guy seems a little too attached to some of his creations. I can only hope he tones it down later. He was behind a lot of things.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:14
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Could Bioware have released the game without the ending and had a day one patch? It's tacky, sure, but it would have given them a couple months to finish their poo poo.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:16
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Waltzing Along posted:Could Bioware have released the game without the ending and had a day one patch? It's tacky, sure, but it would have given them a couple months to finish their poo poo. Functionally, that's just what they requested (an extension and delay to keep working on it) and were refused by EA, except with even worse publicity compared to just delaying the game, so I doubt EA would have allowed it.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:18
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Waltzing Along posted:Could Bioware have released the game without the ending and had a day one patch? It's tacky, sure, but it would have given them a couple months to finish their poo poo. I guess, but that'd probably be a bit more complicated than just making something up just before the deadline. I'm not sure if releasing the game "incomplete" would be better than what we got or not, though I'm sure that Bioware would have gotten fewer complaints if they'd had time to come up with something good as DLC than the Starchild. That said, I doubt that'd help. The ending is just a symptom of Bioware being disorganized and rushed with ME3. There were issues all through the story, mostly stemming from desperately trying to tie up as many plot threads as possible, but the biggest issue was that they just weren't ready to end it all. ME1 ended with the setting being explained and the threat of the Reapers being revealed, but ME2 didn't really advance that in any meaningful way, so ME3 was stuck trying to end everything despite the fact that they had nothing concrete ready to do so. If they'd just had a real outline for the story at least half-way through ME2's development instead of flying by the seat of their pants, so many things could have been avoided. Dan Didio posted:Functionally, that's just what they requested (an extension and delay to keep working on it) and were refused by EA, except with even worse publicity compared to just delaying the game, so I doubt EA would have allowed it. Yeah, EA wanted the game out by Christmas of 2011. Bioware had to fight just to get a March 2012 release date. That's why I blame a lot of the problems with EA being obsessed with rushing everything out with annual installments to meet arbitrary sales quotas. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 00:25
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Dan Didio posted:He was behind a lot of things. He's also the guy who originally said that the universe was a 'wasteland' after Mass Effect 3. Geostomp posted:That said, I doubt that'd help. The ending is just a symptom of Bioware being disorganized and rushed with ME3. There were issues all through the story, mostly stemming from desperately trying to tie up as many plot threads as possible, but the biggest issue was that they just weren't ready to end it all. ME1 ended with the setting being explained and the threat of the Reapers being revealed, but ME2 didn't really advance that in any meaningful way, so ME3 was stuck trying to end everything despite the fact that they had nothing concrete ready to do so. If they'd just had a real outline for the story at least half-way through ME2's development instead of flying by the seat of their pants, so many things could have been avoided. I mean, even if it was EA's fault for the game being rushed (and they do deserve part of the blame), they still didn't write that ending. It'd be easier to write a generic, pleasing ending than what they did. It'd be disappointing and unfulfilling sure, but better than the original. The tonal and narrative shift of ME 3's ending is jarring, bizarre and completely out of place. Mass Effect is 'Fantastic Four' and 'Star Wars'. It is a (mostly) light-hearted space opera with super powers and aliens. It isn't '2001: A Space Odyssey' as written by a drunk with severe brain damage. The EC was a half-assed excuse to show that they didn't actually burn their incredibly popular franchise to the ground for no reason. It is really a cautionary tale for everyone else making a game that teaches two lessons. 1) Don't get your head too far up your own rear end and force your story to be something it isn't. and 2) Rushing fucks everything up.
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Aug 8, 2014 01:17
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Dapper Dan posted:He's also the guy who originally said that the universe was a 'wasteland' after Mass Effect 3. That was just viral marketing for his friend Brian Fargo.
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Aug 8, 2014 01:20
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ME3 was an extremely bleak game, Citadel excepted (because that's silly). The problem with the ending is not one of tone. That's actually one of the few things it gets right.
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Aug 8, 2014 01:30
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The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that I just didn't like the entire concept of ME3, not just the ending. I wasn't expecting the game to be so bleak.
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Aug 8, 2014 01:34
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