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Fresh springs would be like 100 bucks and would make a huge difference. Changing fork oil/springs on a 250 isn't particularly hard, just remove the handlebars, remove the top caps, remove spring. If you want to halfass teh job because of minimal workspace, just get a long syringe and thin tubing, suck out as much old fluid as possible, and dump the fresh stuff in. Replace springs with new ones, replace caps, and off you go.
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Aug 3, 2014 21:24
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Wow, I'm a dipshit. I thought I had to take the forks off, but the wiki says you only have to do that if you're installing GVEs/nuking everything with parts cleaner.  Problem solved.
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Aug 3, 2014 21:36
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Z3n posted:Fresh springs would be like 100 bucks and would make a huge difference. If you change the fork springs should the valving be changed to go along with them?
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Aug 7, 2014 13:51
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Coredump posted:If you change the fork springs should the valving be changed to go along with them? Springs = hold the bike up properly. Valving = makes the damping/rebound work properly. Both important but not directly related. A lot of bikes have fairly adequate valving out of the box but are horribly under-sprung for anyone bigger than a thai ladyboy midget. My rant: I crashed in my garage last night. Luckily I wasn't on my bike at the time. My boots were wet and I finally made the dreaded mis-step while trying to close the door (no automatic opener for me!). I made a few comical attempts to maintain balance before crashing down on my side. Hilariously, my riding gear probably prevented me from doing worse than bruising my hip and elbow. I'm now thinking about putting some sort of matting down or something cause this is ridiculous, it's like standing on ice every time the bloody boots detect even a hint of moisture.
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Aug 7, 2014 19:51
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Slavvy posted:Both important but not directly related. A lot of bikes have fairly adequate valving out of the box but are horribly under-sprung for anyone bigger than a thai ladyboy midget. I think it helps to not be a gigantic sasquatch westerner like half the posters here in CA (seriously, I've never in my life seen so many references to XXL clothing as in the gear thread here; goons are giants among men apparently). According to Racetech's calculator, for my weight the ideal spring rate on my bike would be .95 kg/mm, and my stock springs are .92 kg/mm, so stock isn't too far off from what it should be for my weight - but I'm also under 6' and exercise regularly so I'm not a hambeast and just wear size M gear.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:56
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A ninjette comes with .44kg/mm springs stock. Point fuckin forty four. I'm like 130 in atgatt and even I need nearly double that (.75).
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Aug 7, 2014 22:21
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HotCanadianChick posted:I think it helps to not be a gigantic sasquatch westerner like half the posters here in CA (seriously, I've never in my life seen so many references to XXL clothing as in the gear thread here; goons are giants among men apparently). What's your bike? I've never seen a bike with springs that hard from the factory.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:23
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HotCanadianChick posted:I think it helps to not be a gigantic sasquatch westerner like half the posters here in CA (seriously, I've never in my life seen so many references to XXL clothing as in the gear thread here; goons are giants among men apparently). I'm 6 feet tall and weigh 70kg. My 919's front springs are just barely right. The rear shock is hopeless and I can't set rear preload even approximately correctly, even with the preload cranked up to the full. My experiences with cheaper bikes has been even more dismaying. Japanese bikes are just desperately undersprung in general.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:25
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Slavvy posted:I'm 6 feet tall and weigh 70kg. My 919's front springs are just barely right. The rear shock is hopeless and I can't set rear preload even approximately correctly, even with the preload cranked up to the full. My experiences with cheaper bikes has been even more dismaying. That's odd because racetech's calculator says you're the ideal weight for the front springs. I find it hard to believe that they would mismatch spring weights on that bike. If anything the springs would be too heavy in the rear for you to allow for a passenger. You should probably recheck how you are measuring your preload.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:12
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Just barely right = basically correct. The rear is definitely under-sprung though. If I have a 60kg passenger on the back while I'm in the seat it's about 1cm off bottomed even with the preload cranked right up. Try riding a factory SV650 2-up if you want some real horror.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:24
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Slavvy posted:Try riding a factory SV650 if you want some real horror. Fixed that for you.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:34
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Slavvy posted:Just barely right = basically correct. The rear is definitely under-sprung though. If I have a 60kg passenger on the back while I'm in the seat it's about 1cm off bottomed even with the preload cranked right up. You're telling me a Honda 919 is sprung well under someone who is ~150lb?
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Aug 7, 2014 23:37
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BlackMK4 posted:Fixed that for you. Just how bad is a stock SV setup? I was lucky enough to get one with a ZX10 rear shock and upgraded springs up front and it's pretty fine and dandy for me.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:41
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The internet greatly overstates how bad the stock suspension on the SV is and greatly overstates how much benefit the typical fixes are.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:43
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ShaneB posted:Just how bad is a stock SV setup? I was lucky enough to get one with a ZX10 rear shock and upgraded springs up front and it's pretty fine and dandy for me.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:47
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n8r posted:The internet greatly overstates how bad the stock suspension on the SV is and greatly overstates how much benefit the typical fixes are. I don't really know how you could overstate how bad the worst possible suspension is.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:02
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clutchpuck posted:I don't really know how you could overstate how bad the worst possible suspension is. Go ride an Iron 883, then come back and say that. I sold it 3 weeks ago and my back still hurts.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:10
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clutchpuck posted:I don't really know how you could overstate how bad the worst possible suspension is. Why do all the professional reviews of the sv650 gush about its handling and the overall suspension and chassis package? The most negative thing that most of them say is "yeah, doesn't have the adjustability of a gsxr, but it's still good". I think a lot of the stock sv suspension hate comes from bros on the internet thinking they need top-shelf ohlins poo poo to get the 3 miles to work and back every day. That's not unique to the sv, but it gets pointed out a lot. Is it the best stuff on earth? Absolutely not? Is it the worst? Absolutely not
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Aug 8, 2014 00:21
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Why do all the professional reviews of the sv650 gush about its handling and the overall suspension and chassis package? The most negative thing that most of them say is "yeah, doesn't have the adjustability of a gsxr, but it's still good". But bro I ride so hard that only a full Ohlins setup can possibly handle me as I sit in moderate traffic for 20min a day~~
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Aug 8, 2014 00:31
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ShaneB posted:What's your bike? I've never seen a bike with springs that hard from the factory. 06 FZ1. It is worth noting that later years of the big fizzer softened up the rear shock a bit from the '06s, dunno if they also softened up the fork springs too. I'm also just quoting what Racetech lists as stock for my bike, it's always possible they are wrong.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:46
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I was going to wait until selling my EX500, potentially for some time, until getting another bike...but the exact bike I want, in great shape, with all the bits I'd put on it already there, for super cheap popped up and I'm driving myself insane trying to figure out how to make it happen. Here's hoping I don't get divorced in the process!
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Aug 8, 2014 01:54
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n8r posted:You're telling me a Honda 919 is sprung well under someone who is ~150lb? Yes. If you think otherwise, you're laughably naïve and/or trust the factories far too much. Jim Silly-Balls posted:Why do all the professional reviews of the sv650 gush about its handling and the overall suspension and chassis package? The most negative thing that most of them say is "yeah, doesn't have the adjustability of a gsxr, but it's still good". I've owned one. Front springs were basically non-existent, rear shock had decent spring rate but non-existent damping. They gush about it because it handles great for a beginner bike or commuter or 'cheap and cheerful' naked middleweight. It's more a commentary on how terrible other cheap bikes are in general. It also has a great sense of chuckability and a wonderful engine and ergos and such.
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Aug 8, 2014 01:57
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Akion posted:Go ride an Iron 883, then come back and say that. I sold it 3 weeks ago and my back still hurts. Ever rode an sv? Those are gut punchers without the benefit of a sporty's mass.
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Aug 8, 2014 02:41
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DEUCE SLUICE posted:I was going to wait until selling my EX500, potentially for some time, until getting another bike...but the exact bike I want, in great shape, with all the bits I'd put on it already there, for super cheap popped up and I'm driving myself insane trying to figure out how to make it happen. What bike you getting? I'm still trying to.decide between a triple, fz6, or f4i.
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Aug 8, 2014 04:55
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HotCanadianChick posted:I think it helps to not be a gigantic sasquatch westerner like half the posters here in CA (seriously, I've never in my life seen so many references to XXL clothing as in the gear thread here; goons are giants among men apparently). Exercise is relative, depending on your muscularity/height. My in shape weight was 265 lbs, and I am nowhere near that kind of shape anymore. I did used to get some offhanded compliments from the fast guys at track days. "Wow, you are really quick for a guy your size!"
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Aug 8, 2014 05:48
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Flint Ironstag posted:Exercise is relative, depending on your muscularity/height. My in shape weight was 265 lbs, and I am nowhere near that kind of shape anymore. I did used to get some offhanded compliments from the fast guys at track days. "Wow, you are really quick for a guy your size!" I'm aware of this, as I'm modestly over the 'ideal' BMI range for my height simply due to how much more muscle I have vs. the average person from all the weightlifting I do.
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Aug 8, 2014 06:01
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Slavvy posted:Yes. If you think otherwise, you're laughably naïve and/or trust the factories far too much. I trust that Honda can match spring rates and tune suspensions, it's kinda their deal and stuff. I think most of the suspension work people do based upon model specific forums is total garbage. Making a suspension work properly is usually more than just tossing fork spring in the front and buying a $50 GSXR shock that is probably due for a rebuild. A simple suspension that is tuned by a motorcycle manufacturer is full of compromises but at least those compromises are engineered to work well. I owned two SV650s back years ago and the best handling version was the stock non hosed with S model. The non S I had was never stock to begin with and it flat out didn't work as well.
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Aug 8, 2014 06:11
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n8r posted:A simple suspension that is tuned by a motorcycle manufacturer is full of compromises but at least those compromises are engineered to work well. I owned two SV650s back years ago and the best handling version was the stock non hosed with S model. The non S I had was never stock to begin with and it flat out didn't work as well. Agreed, until you are in the outer 10% of the Bell curve on rider size, either way. I have a tiny friend who had a GSXR750 that he had to severely soften the spring/damping to fit his (lack of) size. Meanwhile, I had to respring my FZR1000 in order to handle my overgrown self. He did want to go to Halloween as Master/Blaster. I vetoed that, because I wouldn't get to talk.
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Aug 8, 2014 06:29
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n8r posted:I trust that Honda can match spring rates and tune suspensions, it's kinda their deal and stuff. I think most of the suspension work people do based upon model specific forums is total garbage. Making a suspension work properly is usually more than just tossing fork spring in the front and buying a $50 GSXR shock that is probably due for a rebuild. No. Manufacturers don't give a poo poo about making suspension work 'properly' unless the bike is very expensive. On a bike like the 919, all they care about is  and making the bike handle better than it's yamazuki competitor, as well as being safe enough to ride for the entire spread of retards likely to buy one.Making suspension work properly involves getting springs that are the correct rate for the weight of the rider and valving to match the kind of riding you intend to do, the geometry and weight of the bike et al. Realistically a manufacturer can't hope to do this at all on a mass-produced bike so they're made for the imaginary 'intermediate' rider. Most japanese makes seem to think this person weighs between 60-65kg. And that's before the costs of production are factored in. You want a 70kg fork spring? That's great but we have all these 50kg ones laying around and they're a good 50c cheaper per unit! It's pretty close! I feel sorry for the engineers as their vision, whatever it may be, is constantly hamstrung by the realities of having to actually construct, market and sell a vehicle in large enough numbers to justify making it in the first place. On top of the competitive pressure from other manufacturers and the media's endless nitpicking. FWIW the SV650 doesn't even have cartridge forks, so there is no difference in damping between compression and rebound whatsoever; they're basically the same as non-gas shocks on a car. These are coupled to laughably soft springs. This may have been ok in a semi-sporty bike when the firstgen was first penned, but by the time the 03/04 remodel rolled around it was unacceptable. Cartridge forks are as basic a technology as efi or alloy wheels at this point, there is no excuse. I'm not sure where you're going with the aftermarket mod/P.O./sikk forum modds thing because that's neither here nor there, I'm talking about factory bikes. My SV had 45,000km's on it and the handling was overwhelmingly the reason I started looking to get rid of it as soon as I did. Ironically, it's predecessor was a pre-facelift 919 with non-adjustable front forks. That bike was disappointingly soft and under-steery in the front; I now have a facelift model and the addition of adjustable forks where you can set the preload and damping have made a tremendous difference to the way the bike handles. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 08:18
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I dont think anyone is arguing that its not OK to want better suspension. Do you NEED better suspension as a street rider who maybe commutes back and forth to work and hits some curvy roads at 60% on the weekends? FYI the above description fits 99% of riders out there. Yes, there are some ~beautiful snowflakes~ who can take advantage of something better on the street, but most cant/wont. Point being, if you're outriding the stock suspension on a street bike made in the last 20 years, you should think about how you're riding on the street. Yeah, if you weigh 300lbs, or 100lbs, you need some suspension work, but other than that, its mostly a want and not a need
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Aug 8, 2014 15:21
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Point being, if you're outriding the stock suspension on a street bike made in the last 20 years, you should think about how you're riding on the street. Either that, or just wait until your neighbors call the cops on you because you're such a hooligan!
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Aug 8, 2014 20:59
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Going around roundabouts, my SV would touch down the pegs. Never had that issue on any other model of bike on the exact same road (my route to work), including my ZRX (which had fabulous suspension btw). Going over an overpass at ~120km/h I would tip in and feel the front end sort of floating around and shaking and feeling like it would float away. Having my girlfriend on the back (who weighed 50kg) would cause the front to bottom instantly under moderate braking. Braking hard when riding by myself would cause the front to bottom instantly. Having suspension that works 'properly' ie damping that works, spring rates and preload that are correct for your weight etc doesn't mean you have to ride like Rossi every day. Suspension that works properly makes ordinary normal road riding better and safer, it isn't something that you only benefit from on the track. The same things that make a bike stable and smooth and fast also make a bike compliant over lovely surfaces, stable under braking, good at swerving etc. My ZX10 felt like it had more performance than I could ever use on the road, but the suspension was great. It felt like even if the bike had 40hp, it'd be an absolute joy to ride. Because the suspension worked properly. Bikes have been gradually dragged from prehistory, ever so slowly, but because they lack the tremendous volume and economies of scale that cars have, technology has progressed much more slowly. Bikes have only become truly 'modern' in the past decade and a bit, and in some areas are still terribly primitive compared to cars, because the cost-benefit equation prevents faster progress toward good suspension and poo poo.
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Aug 8, 2014 21:10
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I am pretty sure you don't need to be outriding a lovely suspension for it to be lovely.
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Aug 8, 2014 21:20
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It's probably also because it's harder to quantify the quality of a suspension, versus 100 HP > 90 HP.
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Aug 8, 2014 21:25
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clutchpuck posted:I am pretty sure you don't need to be outriding a lovely suspension for it to be lovely. Forget everything I said, this is what I mean to say. Listen to clutchpuck when he isn't talking about Buells is the lesson here. Radbot posted:It's probably also because it's harder to quantify the quality of a suspension, versus 100 HP > 90 HP. Marketing's a bitch. I think one of the contrarian success stories is the VFR800, a bike that is decidedly unimpressive on paper yet has an enormous cult following because of it's sheer goodness without having crazy horsepower or brembo bling or whatever.
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Aug 8, 2014 21:34
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For reals though the suspension is the best part of a Buell. On paper they may have middling Showa components, but Erik really knows how to set up a bike that can handle. My SV650-riding friend's first words coming off my Uly for the first time was "so that's what a suspension is like". The next thing he said was "something something tractor engine" but it sounded more like "cluck cluck cluck" to me.
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Aug 8, 2014 21:57
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I have never ridden a Buell but my understanding of how they were designed and the choices that were made was to build great handling bikes. I know some model got awarded best handling bike made some long time ago by a euro bike mag that probably wasn't aiming for more Buell ad revenue. I will agree w/ you Slavvy that stock bike suspensions are setup for a middle of the road rider at some rather arbitrary weight. I do not for a minute believe such choices are factored by what weight springs they have laying around. That doesn't for a minute account for all of the costs involved with making a bike then not spending the time to engineer the suspension. They may be engineering the suspension with crude damping rod forks and simple shocks, but they are engineering it to work well. The makers do sometimes make odd choices though - take a gen1 R6. It is undersprung up front according to racetech but pretty oversprung in the rear for the same weight rider. I believe the explanation I had heard was to make the bike handle 2 up riding better, which is an odd choice for that bike. Personally I couldn't tell, I thought it handled great. You bring up the ZRX which I've a few times and really enjoyed, probably one of the best i4 motors I've ever experienced. I went around a corner that surprised me a bit and the second I touched the front brake the drat thing stood up on my like I couldn't believe. Was it the suspension? gently caress if I know, it could have been something as simple tire pressure issues. There are so many drat factors into what goes into making a bike feel good that I have a real hard time blaming it on something as simple as being undersprung. I'd guess on a 45,000km SV650 with stock suspension that unless you did something about it the shock was in dire need of a rebuild (which you can't really do on that shock) and the forks probably needed fresh oil. A factory fresh stock SV650 is going to feel a hell of a lot different than one with that amount of use unless you've done something to remedy that.
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Aug 9, 2014 00:52
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Tanbo posted:What bike you getting? I'm still trying to.decide between a triple, fz6, or f4i. A first-gen Versys. I wasn't planning on doing it now - was going to just sell my 500 and chill - but this one is a really good deal I want to jump on.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:06
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DEUCE SLUICE posted:A first-gen Versys. I wasn't planning on doing it now - was going to just sell my 500 and chill - but this one is a really good deal I want to jump on. I just went and looked at that same bike at a dealer today. Very nice and I would have bought it if they were going to give me more than $2k for my drz  Stock suspension feels pretty stiff on that bike actually, it hardly sagged at all when I sat on it, if be interested to know what weight they're sprung for from the factory
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Aug 9, 2014 01:17
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Yeah, the suspension on them is really nice. USD forks, good adjustability at both ends...the one I'm looking at even has a Penske rear shock. The perfect bike for me would be a Hyperstrada, but I don't have anywhere near Hyperstrada money. The Versys is probably the best cheap substitute possible.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:34
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