|
Laverna posted:I don't see how any one could try to claim that [Kvothe] isn't a Mary Sue, because he's pretty much a textbook definition of the term. There is no way someone could write a character so obviously Sue-ish and not realise what they've done, especially not someone who's been on the internet before in their lifetime. And I'm sure any basic writing training will tell you about how important character flaws are. Eh. There are a lot of good books where the main characters are complete and utter badasses who, to the extent they have flaws, aren't defined by them. For example, look at Corwin and Merlin from the Chronicles of Amber, or Sam from Lord of Light, or Jack of Shadows from Jack of Shadows, or most of Zelazny's other protagonists... ...while those characters all probably fit the Mary Sue definition, that doesn't make the book suck. Similarly, Kvothe being hypercompetent doesn't make The Name of the Wind or Wise Man's Fear suck. Felurian, sex ninjas, and the fact that Kvothe is somehow inexplicably unable to figure out he's romancing his aunt for the Maer, makes Wise Man's Fear suck.
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2014 19:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 18:35 |
|
|
ulmont posted:Eh. There are a lot of good books where the main characters are complete and utter badasses who, to the extent they have flaws, aren't defined by them. For example, look at Corwin and Merlin from the Chronicles of Amber, or Sam from Lord of Light, or Jack of Shadows from Jack of Shadows, or most of Zelazny's other protagonists... It's been a LONG time since I read any Zelazny, but doesn't his cast have quite a few hyper-competent people as opposed to a singular individual? I mean we're essentially dealing with demi-gods, right? Being a Mary Sue is about context. If you're surrounded by people who can fly, and shoot fire from their hands, and speak any language they encounter, and yadda yadda, then having those same abilities doesn't make you particularly special.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2014 20:05
|
|
|
Karnegal posted:It's been a LONG time since I read any Zelazny, but doesn't his cast have quite a few hyper-competent people as opposed to a singular individual? I mean we're essentially dealing with demi-gods, right? Typically, yes, there are multiple hyper-competent people around. But take Corwin as an example. He loses once, temporarily, that we really see in the books (captured by Eric etc. etc.), and after that it's pretty much a straight series of triumphs (barring Gerard putting the fear of God into him) for the next 4 books.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2014 20:20
|
|
|
ulmont posted:Eh. There are a lot of good books where the main characters are complete and utter badasses who, to the extent they have flaws, aren't defined by them. For example, look at Corwin and Merlin from the Chronicles of Amber, or Sam from Lord of Light, or Jack of Shadows from Jack of Shadows, or most of Zelazny's other protagonists... Corwin, demigod Merlin, son of two demigods, so demigod Sam, an actual god Jack of Shadows, demigod Kvothe, supposedly just a smart kid. Also, as Karnegal said, the character drama largely occurs between peers in Zelazny's stories. When it isn't between peers, it is often a large point of the conversation that the main character is super and the other person is just regular.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2014 20:20
|
|
|
ulmont posted:Typically, yes, there are multiple hyper-competent people around. But take Corwin as an example. He loses once, temporarily, that we really see in the books (captured by Eric etc. etc.), and after that it's pretty much a straight series of triumphs (barring Gerard putting the fear of God into him) for the next 4 books. Yeah, just that one time where he lost and they burned his loving eyes out. God drat I love Chronicles of Amber. Also, Corwin loses a bunch, and often loses the people he cares about. Losing doesn't only occur in terms of the protagonists life or death.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2014 20:23
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:Sam, an actual god He never claimed to be a god, but then he never claimed not to be a god. Benson Cunningham posted:Yeah, just that one time where he lost and they burned his loving eyes out. Right. Long term consequences of them having burned his loving eyes out? None. His loving eyes grew back and Corwin escaped by the end of the same book. Then Corwin goes back and recruits a new generation of the same soldiers he used last time, and wins. Corwin losing his eyes is essentially equivalent to Kvothe having all his family and friends killed, or being poisoned with whatever the hell that inhibition thing was, or seeing that evil tree (that last may actually have more consequences).
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2014 20:27
|
|
|
His curse and that whole shebang with the dark road.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2014 01:10
|
|
|
ulmont posted:He never claimed to be a god, but then he never claimed not to be a god. By your argument, anything that happens to a hero doesn't matter as long as they go on to achieve one or more of their goals. Corwin is permanently changed by his time in prison and his blinding. It causes long lasting traits to emerge in his character. In book five, the woman he loves dies. The curse mentioned above. His imprisonment for the second 5 books. Pain doesn't have to leave physical marks to be legitimate (but again, they burnt his eyes out. Which was awesome and terrifying).
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2014 01:49
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:By your argument, anything that happens to a hero doesn't matter as long as they go on to achieve one or more of their goals. Corwin is permanently changed by his time in prison and his blinding. It causes long lasting traits to emerge in his character. In book five, the woman he loves dies. The curse mentioned above. His imprisonment for the second 5 books. Nah. What I'm trying to say here is: 1) Books can be enjoyable even if their protagonists are supreme badasses who always win. 2) Kvothe and Corwin aren't the same character, but they definitely have some similar qualities. Everything else is window dressing and nitpicking (which is fun, so in general order): Kvothe is also changed by his obstacles. The fact that Corwin was so badass that he didn't even have to die to pull off a death curse isn't really a knock against him; Corwin is Corwin's only real problem. Being imprisoned offscreen in the 7 years between Zelazny writing Amber books was only so that Zelazny could switch to a different hypercompetent protagonist (who is, in fact, even more special than the predecessor).
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2014 02:02
|
|
|
ulmont posted:Nah. What I'm trying to say here is: I'll leave Amber to Benson, he's read the books more thoroughly than I have, but I'd like to know where you see Kvothe being changed? Allegedly, present time Kvothe has chanegd from past Kvothe, but we haven't actually seen any evidence just a vague note that stuff has happened. What changes have we actually seen in his character in the story we've been through?
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2014 06:27
|
|
|
Kvothe spends years on the street penniless. When he gets off the streets, he constantly obsesses about money. While penniless, he is frequently beaten by guards or other street urchins. For the rest of the book, he is very quick to resort to force when threatened. When he thinks his bookie has betrayed him, he jumps to violent coercion. When he is worried about the other bandit hunters committing mutiny, he makes voodoo dolls. When things look like they might go to poo poo in ninja land, he gathers his strength. It's almost like he was traumatized by being forced to live in a cut throat might makes right environment.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2014 07:30
|
|
|
I just finished both books and enjoyed them a lot. I've skimmed the last couple pages of this thread, reading the complaints about the writing, and I understand and agree with most of them, but it didn't lessen my enjoyment. I'm pretty new to reading fantasy, having only read all of Joe Abercrombie's books before these, which I also loved. While I think Joe is the better writer, with better scope and themes and nuanced characters, there's a lot I really like about the Kvothe books. I liked that it was confined to one character's perspective, it didn't get bogged down in the histories or the politics of the world, and the magic (the sympathy anyway) was somewhat physics-based and relatable. It reads like what feels like entry-level fantasy but I'm quite all right with that. I know there's the recommendation thread but I was hoping someone more well-read than I could point me toward some similar books?
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2014 19:54
|
|
|
The first Mistborn book as a similar vibe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2014 20:18
|
|
|
knows a black guy posted:I just finished both books and enjoyed them a lot. I've skimmed the last couple pages of this thread, reading the complaints about the writing, and I understand and agree with most of them, but it didn't lessen my enjoyment. E. Here's the first chapter of his book, for free on his website: http://www.scottlynch.us/files/tlollexcerpt.rtf
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2014 20:54
|
|
|
Wittgen posted:Kvothe spends years on the street penniless. When he gets off the streets, he constantly obsesses about money. While penniless, he is frequently beaten by guards or other street urchins. For the rest of the book, he is very quick to resort to force when threatened. When he thinks his bookie has betrayed him, he jumps to violent coercion. When he is worried about the other bandit hunters committing mutiny, he makes voodoo dolls. When things look like they might go to poo poo in ninja land, he gathers his strength. It's almost like he was traumatized by being forced to live in a cut throat might makes right environment. We don't have a lot of characterization for him before that as it happens at the beginning of the book. We have no idea how he previously reacted to serious negative circumstances because he never faces any until his parents are killed. Again, you need something for a comparison. There simply isn't anything available. His life is all sunshine and gumdrops and then his parents die and he's arbitrarily an orphan because reasons (this a section with some of the worst logic in the series). What we do see of him as a child is that he is an incredibly brash character, which fits in with an aggressive approach to confrontation. We don't actually see any change because we have no basis for comparison. With no actual transformation shown in the book, I find it far more likely that the traits you're talking about are just stock badass protagonist stuff. I don't buy that Tarbean changed him for an instant. If it actually had changed him psychologically, he would not just wake up one day and decide to be fine and start rooking people like a pro. He doesn't even have real physical trauma from the experience. All the time he spent supposedly malnourished has not left him missing teeth or in poor health. We're told that he looks like a trim, sexy nobleman's son with after a mere bath. The whole segment feels really tacked on. It's written differently than much of the rest of the book. I think Rothfus wanted to write a book about a kid going to magic school, but Harry Potter was already a thing, so he aged Kvothe up a bit and added some grittyness with Tarbean detour so he could write about a teen going to wizard college instead. knows a black guy posted:I just finished both books and enjoyed them a lot. I've skimmed the last couple pages of this thread, reading the complaints about the writing, and I understand and agree with most of them, but it didn't lessen my enjoyment. Yeah, seconding The Lies of Locke Lamora
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2014 23:29
|
|
|
Harry Potter is a great read too and he has flaws and stuff which Kvothe doesn't do it is good and right.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2014 00:18
|
|
|
knows a black guy posted:I just finished both books and enjoyed them a lot. I've skimmed the last couple pages of this thread, reading the complaints about the writing, and I understand and agree with most of them, but it didn't lessen my enjoyment. The Book of the New Sun is a good fit as far as a focused perspective goes. Not such a good fit as far as entry-levelness goes, though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2014 01:07
|
|
|
Chichevache posted:Harry Potter is a great read too and he has flaws and stuff which Kvothe doesn't do it is good and right. Harry potter books 1,3, and 4 are unironically amazing. Go read them. PupsOfWar posted:The Book of the New Sun is a good fit as far as a focused perspective goes. Not such a good fit as far as entry-levelness goes, though. Every day that passes during which you haven't read book of the new sun is a day you have squandered.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2014 03:50
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:
 If he wants entry level I'd recommend Book of the Long Sun, Wizard Knight, or Sorcerer's House. All by Gene Wolfe and all of them fantastic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2014 05:34
|
|
|
Thanks a lot for the recommendations, guys. I've got The Way of Kings and The Lies of Locke Lamora so it'll be one of those next.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2014 15:41
|
|
|
knows a black guy posted:Thanks a lot for the recommendations, guys. I've got The Way of Kings and The Lies of Locke Lamora so it'll be one of those next. Once you're done with those, I can't recommend Robin Hobb enough. She has a lot of different books to choose from, but I'd say start with Assassin's Apprentice. It's similar to Name of the Wind in that you've got a framing device, a single-person narrator, good prose. I get to go have a book signed by her tomorrow, I'm totally excited.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2014 09:31
|
|
|
knows a black guy posted:Thanks a lot for the recommendations, guys. I've got The Way of Kings and The Lies of Locke Lamora so it'll be one of those next. The Way of Kings owns and the second book is incredible as well. Sanderson does an outstanding job of creating an immersive world that is totally alien to our own while still being completely coherent and accessible. You're in for a real treat and I can't wait for him to publish more.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2014 10:16
|
|
|
Maybe I just don't get the prose but it's really painfully bad, especially when he tries to be 'poetic' or purple it up, which is constantly. The oft-quoted part about silence is really the worst, since not a single line in it makes any damned sense. The words are there, I understand the words, but it doesn't mean ANYTHING at all. I can't imagine any single bit of it, especially the cut-flower sound of a man dying. They don't sound anything alike. Stringing words together at random is not good prose. I'd probably like the books better if a solid 3/4th of the first book wasn't repetitive money troubles and Wacky School Hijinxs and literally zero plot movement. I think my third complaint is that I think introducing the Chandrian so early was a huge mistake, especially since everywhere else he did his best to try and make them seem more like eldritch horrors, when instead you get a really good look at the dude at the beginning and he's a Generic Dark Lord. E: Blanked out on their names for a few minutes. Also, I don't really buy that Kvothe is bad with women. He shows himself to be a master bullshitter who can read women super well and half the time he talks to Denna he lays out these presumably-smooth lines that makes her swoon and then whenever it's convenient for the narrative he acts like he just had a lobotomy and forgot everything about women. Neremworld fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Aug 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2014 18:05
|
|
|
So, I'm about 150 pages from being done with TWMF and.. why do the characters just break out into tears at the goofiest poo poo? "Our fighting/my lute playing/that story was so beautiful I began to weep!" or something. ughghgh Also, are there any women in these books who aren't impish sex objects for Kvothe or otherwise just sex objects? Maybe Hespe? I've enjoyed the story so far, for better or worse, but Rothfuss sure has a pretty simplistic approach to emotions and women.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2014 18:25
|
|
|
Karnegal posted:I really feel like the PA guys (or at least the one who draws the strip) and Rothfuss are kindred souls. Neither of them have gotten over high school/college, despite their success. That was the thing that really confused me when I discovered fan fiction for the first time. I mean, surely everybody loves creating their own characters. I'd create Mary Sues and insert them in my favourite stories to have little adventures all the time! (In fact, on reflection one of my favourites was almost exactly like Kvothe but was a woman, had grey eyes and wasn't cocky. Everything else though: "I want her to sing well. And be a thief. And have bright red hair. And she has to be really good at magic and swordfighting etc, etc... I can't have been older than 10.) But those characters never left my head. I would never post them on the internet, let alone publish them in a book. knows a black guy posted:I just finished both books and enjoyed them a lot. I've skimmed the last couple pages of this thread, reading the complaints about the writing, and I understand and agree with most of them, but it didn't lessen my enjoyment. The Kvothe series kind of reminded me of Trudi Canavan's Black Magician series. I found them equally kind of light reading, although they do have multiple viewpoints. I'll also add another vote towards Lies of Locke Lamora. That's currently hands-down my favourite book, I think it has brilliant characters and world-building.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2014 22:28
|
|
|
Neremworld posted:Maybe I just don't get the prose but it's really painfully bad, especially when he tries to be 'poetic' or purple it up, which is constantly. The oft-quoted part about silence is really the worst, since not a single line in it makes any damned sense. The words are there, I understand the words, but it doesn't mean ANYTHING at all. I can't imagine any single bit of it, especially the cut-flower sound of a man dying. They don't sound anything alike. Stringing words together at random is not good prose. Yeah, his prose is really not very good, but a lot of people really seem to think it's amazing. I usually try to go, "Hey, what does [insert one of the hundreds of nonsensical purple prose passages) mean?" Rarely if ever do you get anything approaching a reasonable answer. At best people get flustered and go "well, I like it." Which is fair I suppose, but that doesn't make the writing good. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that people who think his writing is super good have never read much of anything aside from genre fiction and never read actual poetry outside of a couple Shakespeare sonnets in high school.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2014 11:00
|
|
|
Karnegal posted:Yeah, his prose is really not very good, but a lot of people really seem to think it's amazing. I usually try to go, "Hey, what does [insert one of the hundreds of nonsensical purple prose passages) mean?" Rarely if ever do you get anything approaching a reasonable answer. At best people get flustered and go "well, I like it." Which is fair I suppose, but that doesn't make the writing good. I believe when people say the prose is good they mean it flows well and has pleasing rhythm. I feel like that's pretty undeniable, regardless of the quality of the content.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2014 14:55
|
|
|
I think it's more a testament to how low the standards are in most fantasy since it looks good by comparison!
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2014 16:39
|
|
|
Karnegal posted:Yeah, his prose is really not very good, but a lot of people really seem to think it's amazing. I usually try to go, "Hey, what does [insert one of the hundreds of nonsensical purple prose passages) mean?" Rarely if ever do you get anything approaching a reasonable answer. At best people get flustered and go "well, I like it." Which is fair I suppose, but that doesn't make the writing good. The oft-quoted parts of his prose are very obviously spots where he made a concerted effort to uncork and hit a stylistic home-run. Even if you like them (which I don't, finding them to be over-wrought, nonsensical and detrimental to pacing), they are not really representative of his writing style, as 95% of the time he takes a much-blander approach rife with telling-without-showing problems and hilariously ill-choreographed conversations. There are much better choices for people who enjoy purple prose, even within the fantasy genre. It is hard to admire him for the "And it was a silence of three parts," passage when there are authors like Mervyn Peake who are that lavishly descriptive on a consistent and cohesive basis. And that's without even getting into yer canonical Great Authors. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Aug 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2014 17:49
|
|
|
PupsOfWar posted:The oft-quoted parts of his prose are very obviously spots where he made a concerted effort to uncork and hit a stylistic home-run. Even if you like them (which I don't, finding them to be over-wrought, nonsensical and detrimental to pacing), they are not really representative of his writing style, as 95% of the time he takes a much-blander approach rife with telling-without-showing problems and hilariously ill-choreographed conversations. I feel like Mervyn Peake's prose is overrated. I got tired of his poo poo after the first Gormenghast novel pretty quickly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2014 19:25
|
|
|
Some people like songs that tell stories explicitly, some people like songs that inspire feelings and if they have stories, they're buried under so many layers of metaphor that it's impossible to pull anything concrete out. I'm part of the second camp. Maybe that's why I enjoyed it so much. You're not supposed to know what a cut-flower sound is. You're just supposed to understand. It sets a tone in your head. I'm not saying you need to enjoy it, but I am saying that you're looking in the wrong direction if you want to enjoy it. It's a song. Don't try to enjoy it, or understand it on some concrete level. Let the background melodies do their work and set the stage in your subconscious without pulling at them. Apply your conscious thoughts to the plot and dialogue. If that's not an enjoyable way to enjoy things for you, cool.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2014 20:01
|
|
|
"It was the patient, cut flower sound of a man waiting to die." An example of good Rothfuss prose. Fantasy books are simple entertainment and I read McCarthy and Mellville and Hawthorne if I want to read literature and I still don't think Rothfuss' prose is bad.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2014 23:57
|
|
|
PupsOfWar posted:There are much better choices for people who enjoy purple prose, even within the fantasy genre. It is hard to admire him for the "And it was a silence of three parts," passage when there are authors like Mervyn Peake who are that lavishly descriptive on a consistent and cohesive basis. And that's without even getting into yer canonical Great Authors. It took three tries to start reading NotW because every time I started reading that Three Part Silence bit I found it utterly pretentious and put it down.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 01:47
|
|
|
Above Our Own posted:"It was the patient, cut flower sound of a man waiting to die." Dienes posted:It took three tries to start reading NotW because every time I started reading that Three Part Silence bit I found it utterly pretentious and put it down. Finally, something we can disagree on.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 05:57
|
|
|
Dienes posted:It took three tries to start reading NotW because every time I started reading that Three Part Silence bit I found it utterly pretentious and put it down. I didn't think anyone was talking about that poo poo when they said he had good prose. At least, I wasn't.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 06:23
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:I didn't think anyone was talking about that poo poo when they said he had good prose. At least, I wasn't. I was.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 08:03
|
|
|
wellwhoopdedooo posted:Some people like songs that tell stories explicitly, some people like songs that inspire feelings and if they have stories, they're buried under so many layers of metaphor that it's impossible to pull anything concrete out. So read something abstract and experimental. I'm on a film kick, so to make a film analogy, it's like slapping a tripy abstract sequence in the middle of an otherwise straight action movie. It's not constantly applied, doesn't mesh, and feels like the creator is trying to pretend they're deep. Rothfus isn't writing in a style that is designed to give impressions and evoke emotions over telling a narrative. He throws a few pieces in here and there and then people act like it's emblematic of his writing, and it's not. Benson Cunningham posted:I believe when people say the prose is good they mean it flows well and has pleasing rhythm. I feel like that's pretty undeniable, regardless of the quality of the content. Everyone I see claiming he's great at prose is citing garbage like the silence in 3 parts section. Above Our Own posted:"It was the patient, cut flower sound of a man waiting to die." No, that means nothing. What is a cut flower sound? Silence? Oh HOW loving CLEVER! People have a low bar for fantasy because people praise crap like Rothfus' purple prose as amazing writing instead of demanding more from the genre. There are great films in the sci-fi and fantasy genres, films that people teach in university film courses as required viewing. It's not like people can't produce meaningful work in the genres.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 10:38
|
|
|
Karnegal posted:No, that means nothing. What is a cut flower sound? Silence? Oh HOW loving CLEVER! Sound of a matter of fact end. Calm, quiet, and pragmatic. Just snip - snip - snip. At least that's what it evoked in me when I read it. I do find his prose very lyrical and I enjoy that. The cadence of a piece of work is as important to me as anything else.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 13:31
|
|
|
I thought the point was to compare a flower slowly dying in a vase of water to a man dying, somehow rendered unable to speak out perhaps too far gone to recover or even remain conscious. Didn't really spend a lot of time laboring over that passage though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 18:35 |
|
|
Karnegal posted:No, that means nothing. What is a cut flower sound? Silence? Oh HOW loving CLEVER!
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 20:56
|
|