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This discussion keeps dragging on, and on, and on. You say conversations go rushing by, but it seems so slow to me.
WickedHate fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 01:02
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Teenage Fansub posted:Seriously. 70% of episodes of The X-Files or Fringe (comparing as agents-against-monsters-of-the-week things) tower completely over this issue of Grayson in terms of dark tone and gross situations. Yeah but those are shows that have explicit horror elements, X-Files moreso than Fringe. There's a reason for them to have horrible poo poo in them.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:06
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Based on two issues, I'd say Grayson does too. It's not allowed?Literally The Worst posted:Including a cannibal speedster does not make your super spy book a horror story. No but it gives it horror elements, like the first issue did with the guy inflating and exploding with purple energy and the superhero organs Syral face guy keeps in jars. In terms of actual tone, it's really one of the lighter comics. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 01:08
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Teenage Fansub posted:Based on two issues, I'd say Grayson does too. It's not allowed? Including a cannibal speedster does not make your super spy book a horror story. Also: It's a bad comic. What does her being a cannibal actually add to the comic besides a quick "Oh, sick" moment?
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Aug 9, 2014 01:18
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This discussion needs to die already because it's just going in complete circles at this point. The point of the scenario was just to show the difference between Helena and Dick. Dick wanted to turn her in, Helena wanted to use her. There's nothing else to that scene other than highlighting the difference between their morals and methods when dealing with this threat. The speedster is a plot device to that end.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:27
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Thanks for pointing out the obvious chief.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:29
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Here's a discussion point: Tim Seely sucks. He writes bad comics. Grayson is no different.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:30
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To thrown in my 2ยข, there is a very distinct difference between merely being grim and full on grimdark. For the most part it whether the thematic philosophy behind the story is either 'challenge and oppose the ideals of the hero' or 'throw hosed up poo poo at them to show how horrible it is, cue resolution' (e.g. the Geoff Johns school of event writing). As for Grayson, I have not read it, and what little I know comes from the bickering in this thread. That said, from what it sounds like the story comes from the 'oppose the ideals' philosophy, but the content is inspired by the 'hosed up poo poo' line of writing. So while the content contained within may be objectionable, the actual comic could be less grimdark than expected. However, to repeat myself, I have not read the comic and this is not a for-certain judgement.
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Aug 9, 2014 03:34
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I don't know what you're all so angry about, this is just Sharknado taken to its logical superhero extreme.
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Aug 9, 2014 04:16
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Aphrodite posted:I don't know what you're all so angry about, this is just Sharknado taken to its logical superhero extreme. So it's deliberately bad because it's easier to cash in on the gimmick of being poo poo than it is to make an original story and fail on your own merits?
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Aug 9, 2014 04:21
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Literally The Worst posted:So it's deliberately bad because it's easier to cash in on the gimmick of being poo poo than it is to make an original story and fail on your own merits? Is pretty obvious that you've already made your mind and nothing will make you change it (and you guys said I was being unreasonable with my criticism towards Tynion) but I want to clarify something about Grayson. Aphrodite posted:I don't know what you're all so angry about, this is just Sharknado taken to its logical superhero extreme. Is not even that, Seeley and King are just taking all the concepts introduced by Morrison and taking them to their logical extreme. The bit about a meta-enhanced-stomach turning someone into a cannibal speedster isn't grittier than the Heretic being born from a whale, Leviathan serving human meat to crime bosses or the Heretic himself. Seeley and King Spyral isn't funcionally different to what we saw at the end of Inc. with the only differences being Kate Kane absence and Mr. Minos as the head of Spyral. The Otto Netz daughter is Spyral chief scientist/doctor, their tech is the mix of technobabble and mind fuckery so common on Morrison's Batman stories and they clearly building towards something so is way too soon to say that they're being gritty just because. I'm honestly surprised at this forum reaction towards Grayson since Morrison is really well regarded here and that fact Seeley and King are taking Morrison concepts and doing something organic with them is always the highlight on every review I've seen.
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Aug 9, 2014 05:09
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Very few people can do Morrison as well as Morrison can. Simply going "well, they're trying to be Morrison" doesn't make people like it. I actually read a friend's copy of the book and it honestly isn't very good and not even remotely Morrisonesque so I'm not sure where you're getting that..
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Aug 9, 2014 05:13
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ImpAtom posted:Very few people can do Morrison as well as Morrison can. Simply going "well, they're trying to be Morrison" doesn't make people like it. I actually read a friend's copy of the book and it honestly isn't very good and not even remotely Morrisonesque so I'm not sure where you're getting that.. Well I'm not Morrison biggest fan (actually I didn't like Inc at all) so my perspective is a little skewed but is pretty clear that Seeley has an honest affection for his work and wants to follow on his ideas. In any case, I'm enjoying Grayson way more than Eternal's bullshit.
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Aug 9, 2014 05:18
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Well I'm not Morrison biggest fan (actually I didn't like Inc at all) so my perspective is a little skewed but is pretty clear that Seeley has an honest affection for his work and wants to follow on his ideas. That's some faint praise there!
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Aug 9, 2014 05:24
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Is pretty obvious that you've already made your mind and nothing will make you change it Some rich poo poo coming from you.
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Aug 9, 2014 05:33
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Literally The Worst posted:So it's deliberately bad because it's easier to cash in on the gimmick of being poo poo than it is to make an original story and fail on your own merits? Well I was just talking about something that moves fast, makes a lot of wind and eats people. But yeah that might work too.
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Aug 9, 2014 06:10
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ImpAtom posted:not even remotely Morrisonesque so I'm not sure where you're getting that.. The Hood, Spyral, the girl's school. It's quite literally picking up on Batman Incorporated. e: I dunno if there's a goal to be Morrisony beyond playing in a lot of the concepts he left. I'd say some horror/fun vibe is carried. So, anyone read the end of Lemire's Green Arrow? ANY OTHER BOOK!! Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 06:15
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Teenage Fansub posted:The Hood, Spyral, the girl's school. It's quite literally picking up on Batman Incorportated. Yes, it is picking up the things but it isn't writing them the same way.
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Aug 9, 2014 06:17
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ImpAtom posted:You're making a crazy disingenuous argument here. There's a real significant difference between "lighthearted character is murdered and retconned-raped by another character usually portrayed as lighthearted" and "an evil amusement park run by an evil god." Hey, if I ever gave you the impression that I think Identity Crisis isn't Grimdark, then I'm sincerely sorry, because that's the opposite of what I think. Like I said before, Identity Crisis was Meltzer trying to fix the "silly" DC universe by making it more "mature". That poo poo is dumb as it gets. (Wait, aren't you the guy who was saying earlier that Identity Crisis wasn't trying to be edgy and cool with all of it's nonsense? What the hell are you even trying to say then?) My point is if you're going to call a bad guy cannibal grimdark, then the word starts to lose it's meaning. I mean, sure, we could sit here and argue all night whether or not it makes sense, or whether or not she could have eaten something other than people to charge her powers, but I think it misses the point that, outside of a starvation situation, most cannibals are not good people. Again you're right, Wally West wouldn't eat people; he's a good guy. This new person? The story gives every impression they're of highly dubious morality. The last thing you see her do is compliment a mad scientist on their work. Maybe that isn't enough context to make it sit right with you, but it seems fairly evident to me that a potential new villain is being set up. Maybe not. Maybe nothing more will come of it, and it'll be a dumb one-off thing with no pay-off. It just doesn't seem like enough to make me jump on the Grimdark Bandwagon. Your argument just seems to boil down to: a really bad person did a really bad thing, but they could have not done the bad thing, therefore grimdark. Dash Magnum fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 08:11
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Teenage Fansub posted:
I'm really sad to see it end as it was easily one of my favourite DC books behind only Swamp Thing and Wonder Woman. I thought it was a little rushed and slightly anticlimactic in the end but it was a solid story with some cool rogues that I'd love to see Ollie tangle with more often- plus Emiko is the best sidekick and basically does Damian's shtick way better quite frankly. I hope the Future's End issue serves as a nice coda to the character. I just hope the Arrow writers don't poo poo the bed considering their usual track record with comics. I like Arrow but it still has plenty of issues and even at its peak wasn't nearly as well written as Lemire's run. Also Daniel Sampere will be a poor replacement to Sorrentino's amazing art.
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Aug 9, 2014 11:31
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Dash Magnum posted:My point is if you're going to call a bad guy cannibal grimdark, then the word starts to lose it's meaning. I mean, sure, we could sit here and argue all night whether or not it makes sense, or whether or not she could have eaten something other than people to charge her powers, but I think it misses the point that, outside of a starvation situation, most cannibals are not good people. Again you're right, Wally West wouldn't eat people; he's a good guy. This new person? The story gives every impression they're of highly dubious morality. The last thing you see her do is compliment a mad scientist on their work. Darkseid wanting to enslave the entire human race and building a torture-park? Super evil, but not very gross. A supervillain wanting to enslave a single person and being shown cutting off their fingers or something on-panel? Evil on a smaller scale, but SUPER gross. Doctor Doom could order the execution of a thousand dissidents and we could see some corpses covered by blankets and it would be less gross than one panel of the Blob (or Sabretooth or Killer Croc or whoever else they decide are cannibals) eating a human being. There's also a slight corollary that bothers me in modern comics (especially modern DC comics) that I guess you could call "in for a penny, in for a pound." Obviously action genre stories need bad guys. But for decades in superhero comics you had different scales of bad guys. Some were just thieves or mercenaries, some were soldiers or hired killers, some had very specific goals for revenge or otherwise. Some wanted to rule their neighborhood or city or country or world, and a very small portion wanted to destroy the world. But at some point a lot of superhero comics started to operate on the assumption that I mean, they're bad guys, so obviously once you make the decision to rob a bank, you're fully prepared to murder a bunch of guards and then try to track down and murder the family of the superhero who thwarted your bank robbery, and then kill the prison guards and break free and murder everyone in the diner you stumbled into, then set up a bomb to try to blow up the hospital to effect your escape, then drop a bomb on a neighboring city, then sign up for a crew who plan to wipe out 99% of humanity. I mean, they're all bad guys things, right? You're probably cool with rape and cannibalism and child molestation too, I mean, you're BAD GUYS. That is super gross. When Darkseid, God of Evil, does epic acts of evil, that's a proper sense of scale. When a literal Evil Empire in Star Wars decides to wipe out entire planets, that's a proper sense of scale. When a henchman bumps into the Penguin accidentally and in retaliation Penguin orders the drugging and raping and murdering of his entire extended family and frames him for the crime, that's gross.
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Aug 9, 2014 16:04
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I actually read the Grayson comic and I liked it. There were light hearted moments in it (especially between Dick and Bruce at the end) and I am getting the feeling that the vibe is going for some 60's psychedelic spy vibe while keeping it with a darker edge. The whole Spyral and T.H.E.Y definitely feels almost like a spy/secret organisation parody. I know people (who have actually read the book) complained about the book feeling too much like the first one, but I kind of like the idea of Grayson hunting down super powers while working on a bigger mystery. It feels very much like watching a tv show format in that regard. As for Green Arrow, I am still trade waiting so seeing tha the second trade of Lemire's hasn't come out yet, I will have an opinion of the ending of the comic somewhere around the year 2018.
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Aug 9, 2014 18:30
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Have we seen Shazam in Futures End yet? I was thinking maybe he's the Masked Superman, based on the cover for #22 in Oct. http://i.imgur.com/faIF5UM.jpg My other theory is that he's Val-Zod left over from whatever the Earth-2 War was.
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Aug 12, 2014 01:46
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I just skimmed through Wonder Woman #33 again and that last page gave me chills. What a great loving book.
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Aug 12, 2014 15:07
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Well this is a thing. http://comicsalliance.com/gotham-by-midnight-ray-fawkes-ben-templesmith-dc-batman-mark-doyle/  Another Bat-series, Gotham By Midnight by writer Ray Fawkes and artist Ben Templesmith. Seems to be Gotham Central Dark. While I haven't read any of Fawkes' work, Templesmith working on a Gotham horror book has my interest peaked.
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Aug 13, 2014 08:16
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You'll find people discussing it over in the Bat thread.
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Aug 13, 2014 08:39
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SomeJazzyRat posted:Well this is a thing. This actually sounds cool and am actually excited for this one
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Aug 13, 2014 09:44
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Neat. But uh, I guess the black dude was never the Spectre in nu52?
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Aug 13, 2014 10:00
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Venditti and Jensen have just throw into the trash another great thing left by Johns...god loving dammit. At least Doomed continues to be great.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:03
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The garbage is generally where Johns stuff should go. Maybe the toilet.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:21
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Endless Mike posted:The garbage is generally where Johns stuff should go. Maybe the toilet. Come on now like half of his stuff is super good.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:23
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Can someone tell my why everyone in the New52 is so goddamn shiny? Every page I see is covered in highlights and glare off costumes.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:26
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Unmature posted:Can someone tell my why everyone in the New52 is so goddamn shiny? Every page I see is covered in highlights and glare off costumes. DC house style. They're starting to get more independent artists, look for Gotham Academy and the new Batgirl to see different art
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Aug 13, 2014 18:12
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Senor Candle posted:Come on now like half of his stuff is super good. Every time a new Johns comic is born, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.
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Aug 13, 2014 20:38
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Multiversity preview and holy crap this looks good http://www.wired.com/2014/08/grant-morrison-multiversity-dc/#slide-id-1401261
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Aug 13, 2014 21:24
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Oh my god. Oh my GOD. It's Final Crisis 2. 
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Aug 13, 2014 21:30
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It's gonna be some good stuff. 
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Aug 13, 2014 21:32
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Venditti and Jensen have just throw into the trash another great thing left by Johns...god loving dammit. At least Doomed continues to be great. What? John and Fatality? Wasn't that all Tomasi?
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Aug 13, 2014 23:25
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Senor Candle posted:Come on now like half of his stuff is super good. You could have probably said that like four years ago, now its more like a third or a fourth. Also holy poo poo Multiversity looks to be super awesome, like the super weird parts of Morrison's Animal Man awesome.
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Aug 14, 2014 01:38
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Wachter posted:Oh my god. Oh my GOD. It's Final Crisis 2. 
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Aug 14, 2014 02:19
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