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What is the best version of El? This poll is closed. |
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| Elminster |
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20 | 6.45% |
| Elmara |
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20 | 6.45% |
| Entwine |
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13 | 4.19% |
| GURPS |
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99 | 31.94% |
| El Kabong |
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153 | 49.35% |
| Elves |
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5 | 1.61% |
| Total: | 310 votes | ||
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Sorry to drag this back to the Pundit and Zak, but one thing I realize is that they don't get that this controversy is not about their opinions really. Nobody is mad that they don't agree with them, nobody is mad that they like ancient games or make retroclones or whatever the hell else. People don't like them because of how they treat other people. How they absolutely lose their mind at anyone who doesn't share their beliefs and fall all over themselves to be lovely to them. No amount of posts about how you hate basement dwellers are going to make up for claiming that someone is pretending to be transgendered merely to score internet points against you. And they just don't understand that. Hell, maybe they do, but they don't care. One thing I never understood about Pundit is why he's so dead set against the World of Darkness. It's straight up a series of crunchy as gently caress RPGs. Because they're about werewolves and vampires instead of dudes in robes, pointy hats and platemail? Because it brought people who are more interested in that stuff than dragon slaying? I mean I know the reason why, but it doesn't make sense to me.
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Aug 9, 2014 08:06
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Iiiii wouldn't call World of Darkness crunchy. In fact when I think "storygame" World of Darkness is the very first thing that comes to mind in great part because it's right there in the rulebooks that telling an interesting story is more important than following the rules to the letter. I mean you're absolutely right about the rest and to be honest I don't see a problem with using the chat thread to talk about things that come up. Grogs.txt doesn't seem like the place for it (it's not a discussion thread anymore at the very least) so where else are we supposed to talk about it outside of like, the IRC room? It's very important IMO that people talk about it in public or semi-public places. I had no idea about either of these two dudes (or at least how bad they were) prior to this clusterfuck, and the more people that know about it the better.
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Aug 9, 2014 08:12
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Surely it would be permissible to start a thread specifically for it.
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Aug 9, 2014 08:20
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Reene posted:Iiiii wouldn't call World of Darkness crunchy. In fact when I think "storygame" World of Darkness is the very first thing that comes to mind in great part because it's right there in the rulebooks that telling an interesting story is more important than following the rules to the letter. RPG books have been saying that since the beginning, though. Storygames to me are RPGs that are rules light and the mechanics that exist are mostly ones that are about affecting story aspects and reinforcing genre. I say that WoD games are crunchy because they have huge lists of powers, splats that your character belongs to and not much in the way for players to modify the narrative directly, other than perhaps Willpower. Like, the moves in World games are all about doing story stuff. The powers in WoD games are about being strong, running fast, shooting fire and moving stuff with your mind. This obviously affects the story but in a much more roundabout way. Nothing wrong with that but they're two different kinds of things. BTW I like the term story RPG better because it doesn't have the arbitrary and plain stupid separation that Pundit calls for. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 08:24
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Reene posted:Iiiii wouldn't call World of Darkness crunchy. In fact when I think "storygame" World of Darkness is the very first thing that comes to mind in great part because it's right there in the rulebooks that telling an interesting story is more important than following the rules to the letter. Awareness is good, but what comes next? Without a clear idea of what people are supposed to do once they know about all this, you get this incredibly tedious "zak s huh... i told you he was a bad fella." poo poo where everyone pats each other on the back about how zak s is a bad person and not liking bad people makes us good people and "haha, that zak s, right?" If you've (not you personally Reene) got a problem with this zak s, don't just sit around with a bunch of people who already agree with you talking about how right you all are, do something about it and talk to someone who can change it. maybe even zak s himself !!! Also I don't trust some of the people on the supposedly right side of the debate. Gau, for instance, is a bit of a shithead. Whoever's right, RPG gossip is an incredibly tedious waste of time for all involved. Bongo Bill posted:Surely it would be permissible to start a thread specifically for it. This is a fantastic idea, or use the TG Industry thread.
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Aug 9, 2014 08:45
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WoD is not quite as crunchy as D&D, but it's close, and the rules are basically there for the same purpose as they are in D&D. There's a reason Ron Edwards focused on it in his infamous 'brain damage' rant.
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Aug 9, 2014 08:46
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Bigup DJ posted:Also I don't trust some of the people on the supposedly right side of the debate. Gau, for instance, is a bit of a shithead. Whoever's right, RPG gossip is an incredibly tedious waste of time for all involved. Gau being terrible at kickstarter is a nonstarter in this discussion. Like, when one side is making a hitlist of people discussing the other side I feel like we can take the supposedly out of the conversation.
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Aug 9, 2014 08:50
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But posting about posting makes me a shithead too, and i will stop.Lightning Lord posted:RPG books have been saying that since the beginning, though. Storygames to me are RPGs that are rules light and the mechanics that exist are mostly ones that are about affecting story aspects and reinforcing genre. I say that WoD games are crunchy because they have huge lists of powers, splats that your character belongs to and not much in the way for players to modify the narrative directly, other than perhaps Willpower. Like, the moves in World games are all about doing story stuff. The powers in WoD games are about being strong, running fast, shooting fire and moving stuff with your mind. This obviously affects the story but in a much more roundabout way. Nothing wrong with that but they're two different kinds of things. storygames are about realising that telling an interesting story can be one in the same with following the rules to the letter. they're also about putting the focus on narrative outcomes as well as character capabilities, like you said there - rules interact directly with the narrative. The characters are more closely entwined with the world.
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Aug 9, 2014 08:55
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Bigup DJ posted:talk to someone who can change it. maybe even zak s himself !!! ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha --- so, on another topic, i've got a recruit thread for a game idea and literally nobody has posted in it since i posted the thread. is the combination of it being an experimental homebrew system and something associated with me enough to kill all prospective interest?
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Aug 9, 2014 09:34
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Did you post in the recruitment megathread? I went from very little to a bounty of choices as soon as I did that.
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Aug 9, 2014 09:54
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Bigup DJ posted:Awareness is good, but what comes next? Without a clear idea of what people are supposed to do once they know about all this, you get this incredibly tedious "zak s huh... i told you he was a bad fella." poo poo where everyone pats each other on the back about how zak s is a bad person and not liking bad people makes us good people and "haha, that zak s, right?" If you've (not you personally Reene) got a problem with this zak s, don't just sit around with a bunch of people who already agree with you talking about how right you all are, do something about it and talk to someone who can change it. maybe even zak s himself !!! Like many similar subjects, "I'm tired of this subject" seems to overtake any cluttering up the actual subject itself does. Also, good job on the "if you're doing X thing I disapprove of you're not doing Y thing that I do approve of." And this is the chat thread. I pretty much just skipped quite a few pages because I give no shits about the Forgotten Realms, and… quote:Also I don't trust some of the people on the supposedly right side of the debate. Gau, for instance, is a bit of a shithead. Whoever's right, RPG gossip is an incredibly tedious waste of time for all involved. Ah ha ha ha gently caress you.
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Aug 9, 2014 10:03
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Yalborap posted:Did you post in the recruitment megathread? I went from very little to a bounty of choices as soon as I did that. yeah, when i opened it
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Aug 9, 2014 10:21
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WoD is absolutely not a storygame, which is why it's so hilariously different in play then it is in advertising. It's a "simulationist" game the same as, well, just about every 90's and most 80's games were; you build the rules around the "setting" and then quietly hope players use them for their intended purpose, which they never do. So WoD has all these rules for how fast Celerity makes you move and exactly how many liters of blood you need and how much a 4 dot Strength character can carry, and absolutely nothing that actually ties you to a certain style of game outside the half-rear end "humanity" that reads like a lazy second rendition of alignment (because it is). So oWoD, rather then gothic vampire drama with politics and skulking and questions about humanity and, well, horror, became little more then supers with fangs and poetry.
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Aug 9, 2014 11:08
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I don't think there's anything that distinguishes a story game from a traditional roleplaying game anymore. I don't really think a simulationist game that manages to reinforce its genre emulation through rules is more of a story game than one that fails to do so. The former is just a better game than the latter. PbtA games generally succeed in emulating genres but are as simmy as the intentions underlying oWoD. I don't think being a successful game necessarily means being a story game or vice versa. Story games always seemed like it meant to be an umbrella term for games that are about role playing specific characters as well as games without character ownership (Microscope and The Quiet Year both come to mind). This is at least in part because I can't think of a game where the mechanics don't interface the fiction at some point. Even the worst game is still a conversation at the table, it's just one that's stifled by bad rules.
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Aug 9, 2014 11:59
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Mr. Maltose posted:Gau being terrible at kickstarter is a nonstarter in this discussion. Like, when one side is making a hitlist of people discussing the other side I feel like we can take the supposedly out of the conversation. Gau is also a shithead that no one likes, so there's that too. Bigup DJ posted:do something about it And what, exactly, do you propose we do? If you ignore Zak and Pundit, they will continue to be lovely and think they have "won" this "war," while further gatekeeping the hobby. If you call them out on their behavior, they will be even shittier, feed off the attention, AND use it as fuel to further attack people and entrench themselves in their ideology. It's a catch-22 at this point.
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Aug 9, 2014 12:27
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I guess it's maybe that my approach to a WoD game (new, specifically) is completely different from a D&D game. D&D of any edition feels to me more like a rush to get bigger numbers and cooler items with a thin veneer of Plot to steer the way while WoD has always felt the opposite. I'm aware WoD has all the tables of how many strength dots to lift a car and how many dots of Matter you need to affect X cubic feet of something but I've simply never had a storyteller that paid attention to any of that more than they did the setting and what was going on with the plot and the characters. Like, if pressed I absolutely can minmax, say, a Mage that would be brokenly good RAW and dominate a game through the mechanics, it just feels like it's missing the point a lot more than if I did that in a D&D game. This might purely be a matter of what kind of player each game attracts though rather than anything with how the books themselves are written.
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Aug 9, 2014 12:29
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Slimnoid posted:Gau is also a shithead that no one likes, so there's that too. He has friends and family who love him and internet buddies, like myself.
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Aug 9, 2014 12:52
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Aug 9, 2014 14:12
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Plague of Hats posted:Like many similar subjects, "I'm tired of this subject" seems to overtake any cluttering up the actual subject itself does. Also, good job on the "if you're doing X thing I disapprove of you're not doing Y thing that I do approve of." And this is the chat thread. I pretty much just skipped quite a few pages because I give no shits about the Forgotten Realms, and… i don't know much about this zak s thing, both sides look like shitheads to me and i'm staying out of it. i would totally love to hear how posting gossip about this incredibly marginal figure is fighting the good fight against the oppression of the downtrodden, though. make me, fucker Slimnoid posted:And what, exactly, do you propose we do? be the change you want to see in the RPG community, Slimnoid. make a special effort to involve marginalised people and call people out on being bigots when you encounter bigotry. why search out problems which you don't believe you can fix? I mean if you're so certain that what you're doing isn't changing anything, why do it? do something productive or fun (or both!!) instead. go do something else.
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Aug 9, 2014 14:25
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Bigup DJ posted:call people out on being bigots when you encounter bigotry That is exactly what we are doing right now, and you are trying to deflect things away from it because you don't care. So I'm going to be the change I want to see by saying this:
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Aug 9, 2014 14:27
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Bigup DJ posted:i'm staying out of it. Are you?
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Aug 9, 2014 14:27
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K Prime posted:That is exactly what we are doing right now, and you are trying to deflect things away from it because you don't care. who is being a bigot here, in this thread?
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Aug 9, 2014 14:30
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nah, they're not being a bigot, they're just being an idiot fucker
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Aug 9, 2014 14:30
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Bigup DJ posted:make me, fucker You are really bad at comebacks. Also, posting.
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Aug 9, 2014 14:31
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pro tip bigup dj, do not call the two sides of this issue equally bad and stop making huge posts about a thing you're clearly ignorant about
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Aug 9, 2014 14:32
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Tollymain posted:pro tip bigup dj, do not call the two sides of this issue equally bad and stop making huge posts about a thing you're clearly ignorant about Excuse me... the truth is, clearly, in the middle.
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Aug 9, 2014 14:33
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Bigup DJ posted:who is being a bigot here, in this thread? Ok this is me putting on the educator hat and being nice one last time. Zak S and Pundit are bigots. Many people who post here clearly did not know that. Now more people know, and will react appropriately to their poo poo-rear end selves. That is the purpose of calling out bigotry, even of people who are not technically "present." Coming in and going "fnarr fnarr why should I care both sides are bad fnarr fnarr" is passive bigotry support. You are upholding the feelings of bigots over the feelings of victims. You don't think you're being a bigot, but congrats, you're part of the group of people explicit bigots depend on to do what they do. So in a way, you're even worse: You're not even a bigot, you're just a deliberately ignorant coward.
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Aug 9, 2014 14:34
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K Prime posted:Ok this is me putting on the educator hat and being nice one last time. which "many people"? you guys have been over this a million times by now and I'm sure the huge majority of people here know what it's about. if you want everyone to know about it, just set it up so there's a section on it in the OP or something. write it all up in a blogpost and link that whenever someone asks instead of treading the same ground over and over. make a thread about it - "Zak S and Pundit are bigots", "Bigots in the RPG community and why they're poo poo". there's better ways of informing people than having discussions about The Latest Zak S Blunder every few pages. i mean there's a point where you're like, "yes, i know this guy is a shithead by now". and poo poo, can we agree we're both against bigotry, deal with it in our own way and leave it at that? the way i see it the world is full of so much bigotry that there's no way to deal with all of it at once and there's no point seeking it out because you'll run into it often enough in the course of your life anyway. we should just speak against it when we encounter it. that is where i'm coming from.
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Aug 9, 2014 15:03
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Bigup DJ posted:and poo poo, can we agree we're both against bigotry, deal with it in our own way and leave it at that? No, because your way of "dealing with it" involves sticking your head in the sand and crying that you're inconvenienced by the victims being big meanies by talking about how they've been targeted.
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Aug 9, 2014 15:06
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Lemon Curdistan posted:No, because your way of "dealing with it" involves sticking your head in the sand and crying that you're inconvenienced by the victims being big meanies by talking about how they've been targeted. well yes lemon curdistan that's one way of putting it. another way is saying that you and I agree on the vast majority of points regarding how to deal with bigotry and in the absence of any real target you're jumping on someone over a very small point of difference. i'm not even against you guys talking about it, or even it being in this thread, just the way it comes up again and again and nothing really new is said about anyone involved. please, make a thread about it, compile a big definitive post on it and stick it in the OP - i'm with you all the way on that.
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Aug 9, 2014 15:15
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You already said that both sides look bad. "Like shitheads," to be precise. You directly compared the people making lists of names of people to target and harassing these groups over email and other mediums, among other things, to the people they have been harassing, as if the things they have done are equally wrong. That is extremely lovely and trying to claim "but I'm on your side" when you've already stated for all to see that you think "our side" is just as bad as the other is ridiculous. You've already made your stance clear, trying to claim that what you said means something else isn't fooling anyone.
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Aug 9, 2014 15:21
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Roland Jones posted:You already said that both sides look bad. "Like shitheads," to be precise. You directly compared the people making lists of names of people to target and harassing these groups over email and other mediums, among other things, to the people they have been harassing, as if the things they have done are equally wrong. That is extremely lovely and trying to claim "but I'm on your side" when you've already stated for all to see that you think "our side" is just as bad as the other is ridiculous. You've already made your stance clear, trying to claim that what you said means something else isn't fooling anyone. that's fair, i went off half-cocked on that. abusing people is clearly worse than preaching to the choir. ↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓ Effectronica posted:Look, I half-agree that TG is quick to jump on people, but gently caress you're loving annoying, and should talk about something else. Be the change you wish to see in the forums. will do, my friend. Bigup DJ fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 15:28
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Bigup DJ posted:well yes lemon curdistan that's one way of putting it. another way is saying that you and I agree on the vast majority of points regarding how to deal with bigotry and in the absence of any real target you're jumping on someone over a very small point of difference. i'm not even against you guys talking about it, or even it being in this thread, just the way it comes up again and again and nothing really new is said about anyone involved. please, make a thread about it, compile a big definitive post on it and stick it in the OP - i'm with you all the way on that. Look, I half-agree that TG is quick to jump on people, but gently caress you're loving annoying, and should talk about something else. Be the change you wish to see in the forums. Reene posted:I guess it's maybe that my approach to a WoD game (new, specifically) is completely different from a D&D game. D&D of any edition feels to me more like a rush to get bigger numbers and cooler items with a thin veneer of Plot to steer the way while WoD has always felt the opposite. I'm aware WoD has all the tables of how many strength dots to lift a car and how many dots of Matter you need to affect X cubic feet of something but I've simply never had a storyteller that paid attention to any of that more than they did the setting and what was going on with the plot and the characters. This is a pretty clear difference. D&D has a broad range of playstyles associated with it due to the ambiguity of the original rulebooks and later ones making use of it, but World of Darkness has always presented itself as being about story first. Although the mechanics rarely have supported gothic horror, nobody has ever tried to run it not just as a dungeon crawl, but even as something analogous to a dungeon crawl (and the Prince has  3 Appearance). Of course, crunchier supers games have also been all about the story from the very beginning. The term "storygame" is basically useless for anything other than its original definition as an overarching definition that encompasses all RPGs and a subset of all other traditional games. But what are you gonna do?
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Aug 9, 2014 15:29
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Tollymain posted:pro tip bigup dj, do not call the two sides of this issue equally bad and stop making huge posts about a thing you're clearly ignorant about agreed zak and pundit are probbo on the right considering what i have seen
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Aug 9, 2014 15:58
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:agreed zak and pundit are probbo on the right considering what i have seen what a shocking and controversial thing to say
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Aug 9, 2014 16:03
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World of Darkness resembles D&D in that all of the World of Darkness's rules are meant to describe what's actually, materially true about the game's setting. A vampire who's developed their super strength to so-and-so level can punch you such-and-such hard, a werewolf who eats X cheeseburgers suffers Y spiritual malady, etcetera. Since proportionately fewer of WoD's rules are about, specifically, combat, WoD games don't tend to be strings of related combat encounters the way that D&D games are, because a lot of your game-mechanical strategy and optimization is about stuff like "how much Mana can I afford to spend to magically ward my sanctum" or "Are my mind control powers strong enough to force my rival's pet congressman to resign". WoD does have much more detailed combat rules than it needs to, though, and if you crack open God Machine Chronicle you'll find Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc.
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Aug 9, 2014 16:09
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:agreed zak and pundit are probbo on the right considering what i have seen You are not even trying anymore. Geeze, you get let back in the chat thread and post like this. A shameful, shameful plutonis.
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Aug 9, 2014 16:28
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In other news, I finally read through Ewen Cluney's Dragon World and it looks pretty fun. I'll have to run it sometime soon.
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Aug 9, 2014 16:33
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I've come to think of early White Wolf as a period of adolescence for role-playing games. The execution wasn't really there (though I think there were a few nice touches to what was otherwise a pretty traditional system), but it had the gently caress you dad kick down the door brazenness to say, "Screw this hack and slash poo poo, we're making stories! With theme! THEMES!  " The hobby needed that, but it also needed to move on from that.
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Aug 9, 2014 16:34
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Winson_Paine posted:You are not even trying anymore. Geeze, you get let back in the chat thread and post like this. A shameful, shameful plutonis.
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Aug 9, 2014 16:35
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