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Ederick posted:I'm kinda torn because the PHB stuff looks like you can actually do some pretty neat stuff as a player, but the monster design is really lame and hard to decipher after 4E. I was terrible as a DM in 3E because I could never get the "feel" of CR and always had trouble making an appropriate encounter for my players, so from a glance it appears that this system will really hit my weakness as a DM. Oh no poo poo. I loved this part of 4E. In fact, I'm kind of curious how much of the praise for 4E comes from people who've spent a lot of time DMing. Nancy_Noxious posted:Another good thing about Next — the art/aesthetics. Although I love 4e's color-coded layout for its ease of use, the sans serif font used for powers and other rules-bits gives it a "modern* look" that seems at odds with the game's atmosphere, and while I love William O'Connor's class iconics, the rest of the art is pretty meh. Next's art is really evocative, and really wish 4e could benefit from the same flavorful presentation. And this is also true. The 4E core books were ugly as poo poo. I found 3E a bit of a mixed bag in this regard; the overall aesthetic (the thing I've seen people call "dungeonpunk" or w/e, every character is covered in buckles and potions and daggers and poo poo) is cool but there's a lot of really terrible individual pieces in the core books.
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Aug 10, 2014 16:56
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I didn't experience the 4e slowdown - everyone knew what their characters did and paid attention. I think some groups absolutely got bogged-down in the baked-in interplay between roles and the breadth of options. Everyone played 4e at once, and people weren't used to that. You were still playing on not-your-turn. The Warlord was all about other characters acting on your turn. For me, 4e's play speed was a massive improvement over 3x. The last 3.5 game I ever played involved a high level wizard battle that lasted something like six hours and three turns. It was loving tedious. Hours of looking up every goddamn spell, every summoned everything's stats and their celestial template, every buff, every debuff, how dispel magic affected whatever. But the most substantial thing I remember is that there was nothing to do when it wasn't my turn. And I think that's where a lot of 4e's 'slowdown' effect came from: After decades of training, D&D players just disengage when they're not the active player. 5e caters to that, as far as I can tell. It guts your choices and strips the interplay that (ideally) made 4e engaging for everyone.
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Aug 10, 2014 17:07
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Reactions are still a thing, though, so isn't the problem still there by your criteria? As an aside: I like the 4e Leader classes, but I will admit that when DMing the fact that (for example) the rogue is taking actions on the turn of the shaman has caused me to mess up initiative, continuing on from the turn of the character after the rogue when it should be the turn of the character after the shaman. Anyone got an easy solution to that that isn't just "remember it better, idiot"? Gort fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 17:17
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Gort posted:Reactions are still a thing, though, so isn't the problem still there by your criteria? Have a token you pass round, like the dealer in poker?
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Aug 10, 2014 17:23
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I'm glad this thread has chilled out a little. I guess we're entering the "acceptance" stage of grief. I've learned a lot from reading everyone's comments. I'll hold of on buying the PHB for now, but my group had a great time playing 5e so I'll stick with it for now and see if/when/how problems come up. This thread also got me to check out FATE and Dungeon World. I like the group storytelling nature of FATE, but it feels like it's better suited to short term, one-off stories rather than grand campaigns. I've only glossed over DW but it looks like FATE with a D&D veneer (in a good way). If my group gets burnt out ill definitely give one or the other a shot, but for now I'm going to stay the course.
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Aug 10, 2014 17:39
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Recycle Bin posted:I'm glad this thread has chilled out a little. I guess we're entering the "acceptance" stage of grief. Good luck! I'm probably going to give 5e a shot too, but I'm definitely going to stick with the free materials until I've decided if I like it or not. I have serious misgivings about the design, but it's possible that they might not impact play as much as I expect they will.
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Aug 10, 2014 17:47
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Gort posted:Reactions are still a thing, though, so isn't the problem still there by your criteria? Which is why I said stripped instead of completely removed. 4e required a lot of cooperation to get the most out of, and that's something I'm sad to see benched with the warlord. I definitely remember 3x players getting pissed that they needed flankers and buffs from other players to get the most out of daily powers. They'd walk up to something alone, alpha strike, roll bad, and decide the whole system was hosed. They tried to sell a team game to not-team players, with predictable results.
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Aug 10, 2014 17:55
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Recycle Bin posted:I'm glad this thread has chilled out a little. I guess we're entering the "acceptance" stage of grief. For what it's worth my FATE game started out with a plot coupon and the players took it upon themselves to take down a giant shadowy assassination organization after it messed with them one too many times. That entire effort is represented as stress and consequences on the "character" of the organization. They just took down a boss encounter and used him as an information source to actively go after other leadership. It's probably going to be months until the final showdown. ...and that's just one detail from one player's backstory. E: It's definitely useable for grand campaigns, I'm trying to say. But as always, everything depends on your players. Daetrin fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 17:55
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Well my buddies and I are taking the dive into 5th ed. Picked up the quick start adventure box, the last one ANY game store had in the local area, and 2 of us have the PhB on order from Amazing. That plus the adventure they just released should get us going. Just glancing over the changes I'll be VERY curious if Wizards/Sorcerers seem OP given that they're lvl 0 cantrips are pretty powerful so I wanna know how the other classes stack up damage/usefulness wise. Mind you I say that as someone who has not really been able to look over the free pdf from Wizards or the actual PhB but instead am going off of just what I've seen in the starter set Also...WTF is up with the release schedule? Players book August. DM guide not until November I was hearing?!??! I mean I guess we can use the adventure book to figure out encounters and tweak from there but I really hope that isn't the release plan :/ Anywho maybe I'm over worrying but I am quite excited to DM, first time I've DM'd in years, the starter set adventure in 2 weeks. As someone who did not like the videogame feel of 4th I am greatly looking forward to 5th
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Aug 10, 2014 18:38
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treeboy posted:Generally one can define fun as effective and efficient agency within a defined system of options. This is the basic concept behind "my choices matter" Most "unfun" games (or games that *become* unfun as they progress) suffer from a breakdown of that construct. I don't know if that covers everything - fun is a very broad concept - but it's a good example of the problem in 5e. The number and power of choices available to a Wizard (or other caster) in combat is infinitely higher than the number and power of choices available to a Fighter.
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Aug 10, 2014 18:44
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Tiny Chalupa posted:Just glancing over the changes I'll be VERY curious if Wizards/Sorcerers seem OP given that they're lvl 0 cantrips are pretty powerful so I wanna know how the other classes stack up damage/usefulness wise. Cantrips generally are worse than weapon attacks from the other classes. Level 1: Firebolt does 1d10, a sword+board tank would hit for 1d8+3, a 2hander for 2d6+3, a rogue shoots for 1d8+1d6(sneak attack)+3, a dual-wielder invested in the style has two swings for 1d6+3 per swing. Level 5: Firebolt now does 2d10 (11 avg), the fighter-types are attacking twice per round so just multiply the above by 2. Dual-wielder would get 1d6+3, 3 times (19.5). 20 average for the 2hander, 15 for sword+board. Rogue shoots for 1d8+3d6(sneak)+3 (18) with a bow or 1d6+3d6+1d6+3 with dual-wielding, 20.5 if both hit. And that covers the Starter levels. After that, some wizards (and warlocks) will get to add their INT (or CHA) bonus to damage, so another 4 or 5 depending on their stat. Cantrips scale by another die roll at levels 5, 11 and 17. Fighters get another attack at 11 (3 total), other classes scale in different ways. Where the wizards excel is in being able to throw out a Burning Hands for 3d6 to multiple targets. 10.5 per target (save for half) to a few targets is a lot of damage. And Sleep affects 5d8 HP of targets, 22.5HP average. That is level 5 DPS at level 1, but with the way Sleep works some of that will be wasted. ritorix fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 19:12
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Ah excellent thank you for the reply. I'm skipping a decent amount of this thread as I don't personally care if people liked 3/3.5/4th and the pro's/con's of those compared to 5th ed. My buddies wanna play 5th.....great. We'll play 5th. We've played 2nd edition on and while we haven't always loved the changes, we enjoy hanging out and playing.
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Aug 10, 2014 19:16
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You should at least skim through the basic rules pdf, it's free.
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Aug 10, 2014 19:18
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ritorix posted:You should at least skim through the basic rules pdf, it's free. Yeah working through that and the starter set adventure now
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Aug 10, 2014 19:23
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ritorix posted:Cantrips generally are worse than weapon attacks from the other classes. I've been hearing that Eldritch Blast doesn't scale in dice, but in number of rays, possibly turning it into a multi-attack that can also benefit from things like +Cha to spell damage on each ray plus maybe things like pushing dudes. Then there are supposedly some weird options where you mix battle mage plus a warlock's pact weapon and maybe a pact weapon with reach and start shooting multi-attack rays whenever dudes get too close. I can't confirm this though.
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Aug 10, 2014 19:38
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Tiny Chalupa posted:Ah excellent thank you for the reply. I'm skipping a decent amount of this thread as I don't personally care if people liked 3/3.5/4th and the pro's/con's of those compared to 5th ed. If you played and enjoyed 2nd ed, 3rd ed, and 4th ed, I think it's safe to say that you are in the target audience for this game.
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Aug 10, 2014 19:51
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Speaking of spells, someone created an index. Useful. Apparently, the Bard has Magical Secrets which let you learn two spells of any level you can cast from any spell list each time the feature comes up, so people are trying to figure what weirdness ensues when you can pick up Paladin/Ranger level 5 spells at level 10 instead of level 17 when those classes can learn it.
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Aug 10, 2014 19:54
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Reading through the book the wizard seems to be outclassing the druid, specifically the transmutation, enchantment schools (with a notable bonus to necromancy for putting out a ton of damage with skeletons if you want). As for wizards getting to attack the prefered defense, the necromancy school has a 5th level spell that causes a con save that if they fail, you can inflict disadvantage to a targets wisdom save via a disease meaning you can hit a brainiac monster's weak con to make him vulnerable to whatever you do.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:11
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Tiny Chalupa posted:Also...WTF is up with the release schedule? Players book August. DM guide not until November I was hearing?!??! I mean I guess we can use the adventure book to figure out encounters and tweak from there but I really hope that isn't the release plan :/
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Aug 10, 2014 20:13
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DalaranJ posted:If you played and enjoyed 2nd ed, 3rd ed, and 4th ed, I think it's safe to say that you are in the target audience for this game. pretty much. We've messed around with Pathfinder, GURPS, TMNT(way back when) and god knows how many other roleplaying games, but we always come back to D&D. Most likely because 1 or 2 people who randomly show up heavily prefer D&D but that aside I think we'll be fine There were many things about every edition we did not like but I find the people you play with make or break a game more than anything else.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:13
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LightWarden posted:I've been hearing that Eldritch Blast doesn't scale in dice, but in number of rays, possibly turning it into a multi-attack that can also benefit from things like +Cha to spell damage on each ray plus maybe things like pushing dudes. Then there are supposedly some weird options where you mix battle mage plus a warlock's pact weapon and maybe a pact weapon with reach and start shooting multi-attack rays whenever dudes get too close. I can't confirm this though. Other people think you can circle an enemy from within their reach without provoking. I think this is dumb because it makes having reach give the mover more room to dance around without provoking than not having reach. This is how I would rule it. pre:without reach: M is the mover, O is the opp attacker, P provokes and S is safe if M leaves an S to go to a P, they get attacked at the S PPPPP PSMSP PPOPP with reach PPPPPPP PSSMSSP PSSSSSP PPPOPPP pre:without reach PPPPP PSMSP PSOSP PSSSP PPPPP with reach PPPPPPP PSSMSSP PSSSSSP PSSOSSP PSSSSSP PSSSSSP PPPPPPP page 74 of the Basic Rules posted:In a fight, everyone is constantly watching for enemies
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Aug 10, 2014 20:15
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Stormgale posted:Reading through the book the wizard seems to be outclassing the druid, specifically the transmutation, enchantment schools (with a notable bonus to necromancy for putting out a ton of damage with skeletons if you want). Looks like the diviner has the ability to roll some d20s and then replace them for any other creature's roll. The monk's Quivering Palm is apparently a legit save-or-die.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:16
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slydingdoor posted:Don't think "keep away" opp attacks happen anymore. I've discussed it with people and the only sure way to provoke is to leave someone's reach. I personally think the natural language description of what an opp attack is means you can also take one essentially en passant--triggering when the enemy tries to move from one side of you to the other, in addition to when they try to disengage without taking the action to do so. I think there's also a Polearm Master feat you're supposed to take that gives you an OA when people get into reach, using your Pact Weapon as some form of reach weapon since you're proficient in your pact weapon regardless of form.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:35
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Yeah that works then, but if the mover has reach themselves or you're within anything else's reach you'd make the ranged attack(s) at disadvantage.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:49
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You only threaten to 5 feet even if you have a reach further than that.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:58
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I prefer that ruling, that's what I thought when I read the entry for Reach.page 46 posted:Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it.
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Aug 10, 2014 21:00
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Yeah, I'm sure "outside of your reach" means "outside of a square within your reach". It's just that they wanted it to sound clean and avoid 'squares' and now we have ambiguity. Excited as I am about 5e, it's clearly going need a lot more discretionary reading than 4e...
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Aug 10, 2014 21:09
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hito posted:Yeah, I'm sure "outside of your reach" means "outside of a square within your reach". It's just that they wanted it to sound clean and avoid 'squares' and now we have ambiguity. Excited as I am about 5e, it's clearly going need a lot more discretionary reading than 4e...
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Aug 10, 2014 21:12
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Nihilarian posted:Don't worry, that's a feature. It's up to the DM. Whether or not it's up to the DM is up to the DM.
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Aug 10, 2014 21:21
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S.J. posted:Whether or not it's up to the DM is up to the DM. Wizards will implement a regional DMing system, where the complexity of your query and the relatively rules enforcement of the event will decide who adjudicates your ruling
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Aug 10, 2014 21:32
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I think the biggest thing that has me coming back to D&D edition after edition is the sheer quantity of stuff available for it. There's always mountains of classes, adventures, feats, magic items and all that stuff available. It's simultaneously a strength and a weakness, and I don't think there's another RPG that matches D&D for sheer quantity of material. Not to mention a large player base, which allows you to steal awesome stuff like this from other players.
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Aug 10, 2014 21:37
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hito posted:Yeah, I'm sure "outside of your reach" means "outside of a square within your reach". It's just that they wanted it to sound clean and avoid 'squares' and now we have ambiguity. Excited as I am about 5e, it's clearly going need a lot more discretionary reading than 4e... This "Natural Language" bullshit is starting to grate on my nerves. Is it really too much to ask to have a codified set of rules that are as unambiguously written as possible? This is 2014 for Christ's sake. That entire section on Opportunity Attacks could be condensed into as little as one loving paragraph and have its meaning as clear as crystal, but NOPE! Gotta add a bunch of flowery language instead of using clearly defined terms!
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Aug 10, 2014 22:19
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Look, the most important thing about D&D, the je ne sais quoi of Gary's vision, the thing that makes D&D D&D, is how enjoyable the book is to read while making GBS threads. That's why natural language is so much more important than clinical clarity.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:38
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Tendales posted:Look, the most important thing about D&D, the je ne sais quoi of Gary's vision, the thing that makes D&D D&D, is how enjoyable the book is to read while making GBS threads. This is all true.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:59
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Tendales posted:Look, the most important thing about D&D, the je ne sais quoi of Gary's vision, the thing that makes D&D D&D, is how enjoyable the book is to read while making GBS threads. That's why natural language is so much more important than clinical clarity. This right here, this is why the game has gone to hell. D&D books are what you read while eating lunch. You are doing it literally exactly backwards.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:30
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seebs posted:This right here, this is why the game has gone to hell. Listen here you forge loving storygamer. Reading the game books at lunch is what's ruined the game because then non-gamers can see them and ask you questions and maybe get interested in playing and now WotC has to pander to the normals and water the game down to Pretty Princess Magical Tea Party.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:57
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seebs posted:This right here, this is why the game has gone to hell. Lunch is when I do 99% of all my rpg prep time.
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Aug 11, 2014 00:01
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Wait, y'all don't like reading tech manuals? I enjoy technical manuals legitimately. They often have quite useful information and it's nice and compact filled only with words that need to be there. I just don't understand why they can't have both in the manuals. You can have your flowery language in one column and in the other you have the real bits that are actually important. Somewhat like a translation dictionary or whatever.
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Aug 11, 2014 00:02
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Ederick posted:I'm kinda torn because the PHB stuff looks like you can actually do some pretty neat stuff as a player, but the monster design is really lame and hard to decipher after 4E. I was terrible as a DM in 3E because I could never get the "feel" of CR and always had trouble making an appropriate encounter for my players, so from a glance it appears that this system will really hit my weakness as a DM.
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Aug 11, 2014 00:18
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Well I know I'd be doing SOMEthing with it while making GBS threads! Wakka wakka wakka! (Seriously though, reading D&D books while taking a poo poo is actually a guilty pleasure of mine shhh don't tell anybody)
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Aug 11, 2014 00:18
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