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So most of the counter arguments to Joel is kind of a monster revolve around the world being too far gone for a cure to the virus to help, the Fireflies were too incompetent to create anything worthwhile like a vaccine or cure anyway etc. which all could be true. But why does Joel lie to Ellie in the end then? What is justifiable about that?
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Aug 10, 2014 22:19
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I'm really curious as to how much work some of you think goes into making a vaccine... E: OH MY GOD HE LIED. NOT THAT. TERROR AND HORROR. Violence, murder, braining people with bricks, fine, but lies I SHALL NOT STAND FOR. He didn't want Ellie to know she was about to be murdered and that he had to slaughter his way out of the hospital. On the scale of bad things Joel did in the game, that ranks pretty drat low. Dewgy fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 22:19
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How long does it take to play Left Behind? Glad I finished the game last night so I can read all these spoilers. Why does it have to be determined whether he's "good" or "bad?" It's such a juvenile way of looking at humanity. These kinds of debates rage on and on in TVIV too.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:24
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Left Behind is between 3-4 hours depending on how much you explore pretty much. The flashback sequences have no combat at all so its worth taking your time.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:26
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This is why it's a well written game, such different opinions about the story. The fireflies are hopelessly idealistic, with a bad plan, and probably doing more harm than good just like real revolutionaries. The military is status quo, doing as they are told, maintaining an ever shrinking line. And the general world population has seemingly devolved, losing semblance of society. I've seen people post in this thread 'why would people set up roadblocks to kill each other?' The same reason they do in reality, there is no value on human life here. In all of this, Joel's selfish decision to keep Ellie alive is the only genuinely human action that happens in the game, I think. Think about the name; what is 'The last of Us' in the gameworld? Is it the people? No, there seem to be a lot of people. So then, is it the sentiment and affection and care that has been lost? I think so. His choice is selfish in light of the situation, but not in light of of his love another human being. The cure has a low likelihood of being effective, and the world is broken anyway. I think it's why Ellie seems to accept Joel's lie, she gives him a look like 'you're lying, but okay. Where to?'
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Aug 10, 2014 22:29
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Cardboard Fox posted:Ellie isn't Joel's daughter, no matter how much he wants her to be. And Joel didn't give her a chance at the end of the game either. He is a selfish person for making the decision for her, and he is a terrible person for destroying any chance that humanity has at recovering. i disagree with that line of thought. over the course of the story, Joel basically adopts her. While she isn't his biological daughter, she becomes his daughter (at least in his eyes) nevertheless. It doesn't diminish his feelings in the least. quote:The fireflies are pretty ineffective, but they're the only hope the worlds has for recovering. Joel just shits all over that hope. Now this I do agree with, but how many of us could give up our child (whether biological or adopted) for a snowballs chance in hell of working? I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it. Tide fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 22:30
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If you follow the environmental narrative in Pittsburgh you find out that the reason it got overrun in the first place is because the Fireflies staged a revolt and everything went to poo poo. These people consistently make things worse for everyone despite their best intentions, they are the archetypical radical idealists. Even if they could manufacture a cure, there's no way they wouldn't turn it into some kind of political weapon or gently caress things up in some profound way.Drewsky posted:So most of the counter arguments to Joel is kind of a monster revolve around the world being too far gone for a cure to the virus to help, the Fireflies were too incompetent to create anything worthwhile like a vaccine or cure anyway etc. which all could be true. But why does Joel lie to Ellie in the end then? What is justifiable about that? He's trying to protect her. She can see through it, obviously, but he tries anyways because that's what parents do.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:30
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That's a tad on the long side in my experience. I finished Left Behind in just under 2 hours on Hard difficulty and I did a little exploring. The point though is it's 2 hours of good content.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:31
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Dewgy posted:I'm really curious as to how much work some of you think goes into making a vaccine... His lie is obviously not inconsequential to the story, it's how they chose to end the whole game.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:38
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Drewsky posted:So most of the counter arguments to Joel is kind of a monster revolve around the world being too far gone for a cure to the virus to help, the Fireflies were too incompetent to create anything worthwhile like a vaccine or cure anyway etc. which all could be true. But why does Joel lie to Ellie in the end then? What is justifiable about that? first, and most importantly, it doesn't come out that they have to remove her brain (therefore DEFINITELY killing her) to MAYBE make a vaccine until after he's delivered her to them. It's information the Fireflies never tell her before they put her under for the procedure. the fireflies were totally okay with taking away her agency to make the decision herself. Second, Joel learns they aren't even remotely optimistic it will work. Third, my take on it is that Joel chooses to carry the burden himself rather than have Elle stress about it and possibly try to make her way back since she doesn't know Joel killed everyone (and after the fact, may not believe that there's no one left to carry out the procedure/vaccine). Because if he lies about the first part, why wouldn't he lie about trying to stop her from going?
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Aug 10, 2014 22:46
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Drewsky posted:His lie is obviously not inconsequential to the story, it's how they chose to end the whole game. I'm not calling it inconsequential, I'm saying the question of "how is it justified" is kind of pointless, when the whole point is it's an incredibly human thing to do in that situation. Joel basically just shot Ellie's foster mother in the face because she was trying to kill her. I can't say I'd have just straight up said that to her either, and that's the kind of lie you just roll with. It'll come out eventually, but it does no good for her to know the truth right then and there.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:47
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Tide posted:i disagree with that line of thought. over the course of the story, Joel basically adopts her. While she isn't his biological daughter, she becomes his daughter (at least in his eyes) nevertheless. It doesn't diminish his feelings in the least. Oh, I totally get where he is coming from. If it was me, I would be doing the exact same things probably. I'm approaching the decisions Joel is making from the entire game world perspective. I know it is mainly the story of Joel and Ellie, but I find myself thinking about the consequences that their actions have on the world as a whole. And I think this may be why there is a split in opinions about the games story, and the ending.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:57
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echronorian posted:This is why it's a well written game, such different opinions about the story. Agreed, it's kind of refreshing to see a video game story that has this degree of ambiguity to it. It's pretty common to see in novels (many of my high school English class experiences revolved around picking an interpretation of a book and defending it), and I think some people aren't used to that. There's not necessarily one right answer about what happened/should have happened, and that opens it up for discussion and ultimately is more interesting than a storybook "happily ever after" ending. I think Druckmann et al., have expressed interest in a sequel, but I think that would do more harm than good. Or at least, another game in the franchise would have to be far removed from Joel and Ellie's story, which has already said everything that needed to be said.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:57
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It's been a while since I played through the game but if I'm not mistaken they say Ellie survived infection because there was something wrong with the spore that infected her, and it attached to her brain stem but did not proceed from there. However it stayed on the binding site and blocked new spores from attaching, so she was not able to be infected. So it wasn't a matter of her immune system fighting it off, and therefore no vaccine to come of it. I thought they still wanted to open her brain to study it or something.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:01
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I'm not trying to get anyone to pick a side or argue that any interpretation but my own is wrong. I just like hearing the different readings and experiences that others had with the game that can be totally different than my own. It really is a testament to how this game is so well written.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:08
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Drewsky posted:It really is a testament to how this game is so well written. Yup, and I love that they've crafted a game so well that it's 100% wrapped up at the end and still leaves the player able to wonder about everything that took place. It's really fascinating how they crafted this world and placed these characters in it. I was pretty frustrated but Uncharted 3 but I'm back to being a ND fan for life. TLOU brought the gameplay, writing, set pieces, all that together in great balance. Come to think of it I think it would be cool if they did a back and forth between a lighter game (Uncharted) and a darker game (TLOU) every few years.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:20
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Was it Uncharted 2 or 3 where one of the main characters left before they could do the last half mocap forcing ND to basically rewrite the ending? Anyway, the ending to TLOU is great because of the ambiguity and the discussions it brings. Add in what we would do or what we THINK we would do and it's amazing they pulled it off. I love it; but I loved the original ending to Mass Effect 3 as well so what do I know 
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Aug 10, 2014 23:37
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Uncharted 3 and it was Cutter. He had other obligations.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:40
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Part of what colors my interpretation of tlou is the flack that ND always took about the "narrative dissonance" that was a part of uncharted. Nathan drake is a cool affable dude that kills hundreds of people, and I think they addressed that problem perfectly with tlou. But yeah, ND has my purchase for about anything they put out at this point. Definitely my favorite AAA developers at the moment.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:59
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Manatee Cannon posted:Uncharted 3 and it was Cutter. He had other obligations.
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Aug 11, 2014 00:34
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Drewsky posted:Part of what colors my interpretation of tlou is the flack that ND always took about the "narrative dissonance" that was a part of uncharted. Nathan drake is a cool affable dude that kills hundreds of people, and I think they addressed that problem perfectly with tlou. Even though I get it I always hated that argument because Drake was on a ridiculous adventure and gunning down hundreds of bad dudes just kinda fits. Those games are just big adventures and I never really felt the need to reason any of it. It IS great how they addressed it in TLOU though. I'm glad they didn't make Joel some kind of celebrated hero of mankind. Hm
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Aug 11, 2014 01:28
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Hopping in for MP now. PSN veddermatic. Save me from pubbies!
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Aug 11, 2014 01:29
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I never owned a PS3, but Uncharted for Vita had the same "help boost a person up a wall and wait for them to drop something down for you to climb up" poo poo over and over again too. Is that a Naughty Dog thing or just those two games?
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Aug 11, 2014 01:40
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cat doter posted:It's something that needs repeating, because lots of people forget it. We had years of 'objective reviews' with 100 point scales, the idea that a game can be objectively good or bad is an idea that's taking a frustratingly long time to die. People will say, with the conviction of the poster you're replying to, that a game is bad, like it's an objective truth, when it obviously isn't. I meant it both ways. He may be allowed to hate the game because of subjective tastes, but he's not allowed to argue it's objective. We also are equally as valid in our appreciation. I know this is from like a week ago, but I've been going through the thread after finishing the game and this is one of the most ill-advisedly patronising things I've read. Hey guy, sometimes it's interesting and useful to hear why other people respond differently to a thing than you do. But thanks for pointing out the difference between a fact and an opinion, it's something I'm sure we've all been struggling with.
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Aug 11, 2014 01:55
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leidend posted:I never owned a PS3, but Uncharted for Vita had the same "help boost a person up a wall and wait for them to drop something down for you to climb up" poo poo over and over again too. Is that a Naughty Dog thing or just those two games? Uncharted did it a few times, I think it's basically hiding loading screens.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:01
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Kilometers Davis posted:Even though I get it I always hated that argument because Drake was on a ridiculous adventure and gunning down hundreds of bad dudes just kinda fits. Those games are just big adventures and I never really felt the need to reason any of it. It IS great how they addressed it in TLOU though. I'm glad they didn't make Joel some kind of celebrated hero of mankind. Hm It's actually a really poorly constructed criticism. I can kind of see the point a little, because Naughty Dog games' selling point is a strong narrative and a film like experience. However, at it's core it's still a game, and it needs good/fun gameplay, which in a 3rd person shooter game is, well, shooting lots of dudes. Also Naughty Dog's point of reference with Uncharted is Indiana Jones, not real world explorers (although Cortes and Colombus were basically mass murderers anyway). Indiana Jones kills just as many people as Nathan Drake, and no one blinks an eye. On top of all that, there is still a running theme in all the games that Drake is not a stand up guy. There is no narrative dissonance there.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:04
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Just a random thought, but did anyone else find Joel's aging a bit weird? He's probably around 40 in the prologue and after 20 years he just looks a little more haggard and has some gray in his hair.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:06
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Oh man, Grounded Mode is no joke. And now I'm out of molotovs. 
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Aug 11, 2014 02:07
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NESguerilla posted:Just a random thought, but did anyone else find Joel's aging a bit weird? He's probably around 40 in the prologue and after 20 years he just looks a little more haggard and has some gray in his hair. I think Joel is under 30 in the prologue. At some point I am fairly sure there is dialogue about him getting his girlfriend pregnant causing him to miss out on college, and I know for sure he says cassettes were from before his time.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:18
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NESguerilla posted:Just a random thought, but did anyone else find Joel's aging a bit weird? He's probably around 40 in the prologue and after 20 years he just looks a little more haggard and has some gray in his hair. He was in his late 20s in the prologue. Late 40s in the game.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:19
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rabidsquid posted:I know for sure he says cassettes were from before his time. When did he say this? Not saying he didn't but I don't remember hearing it. I noticed some of the pre-collapse tech was a bit old, like TVs in houses are CRT. I know a lot of people still use them but I don't think there was a single flat screen TV. Seems like early 2000s.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:26
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leidend posted:When did he say this? Not saying he didn't but I don't remember hearing it. I actually just played the scene again today, Ellie steals the tape from Bills place. The country music playing when the hunter ambush happens. edit: The date is 2013, you see it on a newspaper in the prologue.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:29
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He does say that when they are in the highway in the truck. I guess he is just a very aged looking 20 something in the prologue.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:30
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rabidsquid posted:I think Joel is under 30 in the prologue. At some point I am fairly sure there is dialogue about him getting his girlfriend pregnant causing him to miss out on college, and I know for sure he says cassettes were from before his time. It wasn't the cassette that was before his time, it was the sing/singer - which doesn't sound like any country I've listened to in 2013. My guess on his age pre-outbreak is 28 to 30.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:39
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Tide posted:It wasn't the cassette that was before his time, it was the sing/singer - which doesn't sound like any country I've listened to in 2013. "Alone and Forsaken" (the song on the cassette) is by Hank Williams it was written in the '40s.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:43
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Yeah, I took it as he meant the song not the cassette tape. I figured he was late 20s/early 30s then late 40s/early 50s.
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Aug 11, 2014 03:09
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rabidsquid posted:I actually just played the scene again today, Ellie steals the tape from Bills place. The country music playing when the hunter ambush happens. Yeah, as already mentioned, that was referring to the song. Cassettes were still a thing in the early 90s, maybe even late 90s for some.
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Aug 11, 2014 03:18
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Had some really insane interrogation matches earlier. I was constantly finding myself in tense situations. Coordinated ambushes, barely surviving crazy sudden firefights, matches coming down to the very last second. This game makes me heart beat like crazy sometimes. Horror games don't even do that to me as often. I really hope they get the matchmaking ironed out for the people having problems because this poo poo is special. There's nothing like it out. Megasabin posted:It's actually a really poorly constructed criticism. I can kind of see the point a little, because Naughty Dog games' selling point is a strong narrative and a film like experience. However, at it's core it's still a game, and it needs good/fun gameplay, which in a 3rd person shooter game is, well, shooting lots of dudes. Also Naughty Dog's point of reference with Uncharted is Indiana Jones, not real world explorers (although Cortes and Colombus were basically mass murderers anyway). Indiana Jones kills just as many people as Nathan Drake, and no one blinks an eye. On top of all that, there is still a running theme in all the games that Drake is not a stand up guy. There is no narrative dissonance there. Yup, well said. In the end if the option is a more "consistent" narrative vs ten more buckets of man shaped bullet fodder I'm picking the latter.
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Aug 11, 2014 03:34
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Pictures! More pictures!
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Aug 11, 2014 03:36
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Dewgy posted:I'm really curious as to how much work some of you think goes into making a vaccine... Honestly it's video game logic. The end would fall flat on its face if we realized it would take many people like ellie to find a cure and years of research
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Aug 11, 2014 04:12
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