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seebs posted:Okay, assume he has the 108 skeletons available to use to animate. At that point, great, he's got a huge supply of skeletons... now what? He's got no higher level spells (because he blew them on animating his army), and skeletons are not super powerful, and they are light on things like maneuverability. Do they have decent to-hit numbers? Remember this edition has flatter math where a 19 ac( what the adult blue dragon has) is very rare, in all of my skeleton assessment (with 20) The Wizard just threw otto's irresistible dance to give all the skeleton's advantage (a 6th level spell btw), assuming you want to 1 shot a dragon 44 skeletons roughly works out as 2 3rd 2 4th 3 5th level spells, which you can do in one day with an 8 hour rest and 1 hour to arcane recovery the lost slots back to you, no need to double rest, then you make the dragon dance with a readied action on all the skeletons to fire then boom.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:22
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seebs posted:Okay, assume he has the 108 skeletons available to use to animate. At that point, great, he's got a huge supply of skeletons... now what? He's got no higher level spells (because he blew them on animating his army), and skeletons are not super powerful, and they are light on things like maneuverability. Do they have decent to-hit numbers?
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Aug 11, 2014 23:23
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Gort posted:I like your class, but it doesn't say "Fighter" to me, it's more of a Marshall or Captain class. I think to have a Fighter that belongs in the same game as the Wizard and remains a single person you'd either have to come up with a bunch of things a mythical hero could do (knock a mountain down, physically wrestle the concept of Old Age, outrun the concept of Thought) and arrange them into a spell-level-like structure, or just tell the player that every so often they need to come up with a Herculean solution to a problem and it will just work. If you try your solution directly against a monster it gets a save, but if you just want to say, run up a 200 foot cliff in a single round or jump over a castle that just happens. It was meant to evoke the OD&D Fighting-man, which got a bunch of followers at higher level. But, yeah, there should be a "one man army" class as well. I'm thinking that Barbarian would fit, in the true-to-Conan vein, not simply a slavering berserker. Or just have two types of Fighters. An easy route would be to replace Followers with something else, make sure there are plenty of non-Followers-related Tactics, and let him use his Tactics' Operation abilities without having to task a follower (maybe daily uses instead). I wouldn't want to go with the "just think of something and you do it" route, because I don't think it works in a game like modern D&D, alongside Wizards getting specific spell effects. It's just implicitly more open to DM-fiat.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:24
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And of course there are ways to try and mitigate this...interrupting long rests, enforcing strict deadlines to go kill Lord Evilbad, etc...but once again, this is just another example of how things like "can summon a skeleton army" winds up warping how the GM runs the game around that in an attempt to keep things on an even keel. Again, this isn't even some stupid Pun-Pun level of "browse through 20 sourcebooks and abuse obscure loopholes in the rules for real ultimate power" shenanigans, if I knew I was going to go delve some dungeons or go fight a bunch of monsters or whatever and I could summon 100 skeletons then spend eight hours playing wizard Xbox before heading out with a small army and all my magic then why would I ever not do that?
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Aug 11, 2014 23:27
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Kai Tave posted:And of course there are ways to try and mitigate this...interrupting long rests, enforcing strict deadlines to go kill Lord Evilbad, etc...but once again, this is just another example of how things like "can summon a skeleton army" winds up warping how the GM runs the game around that in an attempt to keep things on an even keel. My favorite thing about this strategy is the wizard can seal himself in a box before sleeping for 8 hours and let his skeleton army defend him
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Aug 11, 2014 23:27
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Using mythology as the basis for a fighter class means running headfirst into the problem that every class is already capable of downright mythical physical activity. Nothing stops anyone with the ability to wield a sword reenacting Corwin of Amber swordfighting for 22 hours straight or anyone with unarmed proficiency reenacting Jacob wrestling with God for 10-12 hours, because fatigue is not a concern for anyone besides restoring limited-use abilities. In any case, the real problem is that casters get ways to shortcircuit the skill systems and martials don't, and giving the most reasonable answer to this would cause howls of pain and hatred to ring out across the land.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:33
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Also this is just an example we've come up with now. Its not like goons have been scouring the sourcebooks, wringing their hands and going this'll show em!! Its also not willful rules misinterpretation. Cast spells that last 24 hours. Rest. Regain the slows, the effect is still up. This is some basic poo poo. Why does it exist? Because D&D Next is lazy. Its the expendables 3 of RPGs. It has 1 or 2 great things (Mel Gibson, Antonio Bandereas, Advantage/Disadvantage). It has the explosions/dragons you want. It'll be fun to go see/play with your friends. But its lazily made. Its not really good in a market with tons of other stuff to go play. The house rule for it is simple; you can't do it. You keep trying to make up ways "Oh well in the dungeon then, so and so will happen to compensate" - full stop, gently caress that stupid poo poo. Just say "You can only have X skeletons/summons/whatever." The game is not built to support minion factories and smart swarm/minion rules have been consistently removed from every iteration for the same reason damage on a miss was - irredeemably terrible people on the internet with terrible opinions. Guess what, you cater to those people, the game breaks. Ban skeletons at your table but don't keep giving me "WELL IN A REAL FANTASY WORLD, YOU SEE, HEH" because it makes you sound like a complete loving toff and it ignores the fact that nothing YOU, as the DM, are doing is wrong, you are being actively hosed by a game system that says "This is the class that gets to bend reality to their whims and its in a game with the class that gets to attack a couple of times" and calls them equal.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:35
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Effectronica posted:Using mythology as the basis for a fighter class means running headfirst into the problem that every class is already capable of downright mythical physical activity. Nothing stops anyone with the ability to wield a sword reenacting Corwin of Amber swordfighting for 22 hours straight or anyone with unarmed proficiency reenacting Jacob wrestling with God for 10-12 hours, because fatigue is not a concern for anyone besides restoring limited-use abilities. Yeah, that was my original thought with it as well. At least if you have an army of followers, you can do a lot of world shaping things that might not get grogs all in a tizzy. Of course, 4E didn't actually have Fighters doing anything outrageous, and it still pissed them off that they didn't suck. So it's probably a lost cause.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:38
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Effectronica posted:Using mythology as the basis for a fighter class means running headfirst into the problem that every class is already capable of downright mythical physical activity. 5e max javelin throw: 120 feet Real world record: 375 feet 5e max high jump height: 8 ft (20 Strength) Real world record: 8 ft 1/4 inch 5e max long jump distance: 25 ft (20 Strength Champion Fighter with Remarkable Athlete) Real world record: 29 feet 4 inches. 5e max swim speed: 5.1 mph (Rogue using Cunning Action to move and then Dash twice) Real world record: 5.3 mph 5e max run speed: 10.2 mph (Rogue using Cunning Action to move and then Dash twice) Real world record: 27.4 mph 5e max lifting weight: 600 lbs (20 Strength) Real world record: 1155 lbs
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Aug 11, 2014 23:48
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We have a preview of the Terrasque on Enworld. It appears to lacking it's trademark regeneration. http://www.enworld.org/
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Aug 11, 2014 23:50
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Effectronica posted:He has all his spells as far as anyone knows, since you can just rest for 8 hours and get them back. For a while, yeah; he's got some overlap (I guess maybe 15 hours) before the animates start wearing off. But that's a time limit, and then somewhere in there he ends up with a shortage of spells and no control over the undead and needing a rest, I think.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:51
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MonsterEnvy posted:We have a preview of the Terrasque on Enworld. It appears to lacking it's trademark regeneration.  Cool, CR30. With Magic Jar, you take over its body with a 93% success rate, retaining your spellcasting ability.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:52
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Laphroaig posted:Cast spells that last 24 hours. Rest. Regain the slows, the effect is still up. This is some basic poo poo. Why does it exist? Because D&D Next is lazy. Hmm. I know this could be done in 3e-through-PF. 4e didn't have animate dead, as I recall. I'm not actually sure that I've ever seen any edition of D&D that wouldn't let you reprep spells some time after you cast them, but before their durations were up.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:59
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Jack the Lad posted:The fatigue thing, yes - kind of. In practice you run out of HP long before you get tired, even against the weakest enemies. Everything else? Not so much. I mean that there's nothing that limits physical activity beyond numerical limits. But impossible strength and speed only get you so far and then you have to face that the fighter is still supposed to be an inarticulate slaughter engine.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:00
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Effectronica posted:I mean that there's nothing that limits physical activity beyond numerical limits. But impossible strength and speed only get you so far and then you have to face that the fighter is still supposed to be an inarticulate slaughter engine. The
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Aug 12, 2014 00:07
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Jack the Lad posted:With Magic Jar, you take over its body with a 93% success rate, retaining your spellcasting ability. I would play 5e again if I could be a terrasque wizard.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:11
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Jack the Lad posted:
gently caress me, after the goodness of 4e, this just looks like  seriously, if there's ONE THING that everyone agreed was good it was 4e monster blocks, they're so USABLE. This is just a mess.And yeah, on the whole skeleton army thing: gently caress a game that has an action economy, and lets some people loving ignore it. Another of those lessons from 4e they chose to just outright ignore.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:12
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They didn't outright ignore it. Stuff like the ranger shows that people working on the game really did have the action economy in mind. It's just, well...
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Aug 12, 2014 00:17
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Does anyone have anything they want added to the main post? I kind of haven't been following the thread much and I know how people like making cool player/GM game aids/custom classes/etc.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:20
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Ferrinus posted:They didn't outright ignore it. Stuff like the ranger shows that people working on the game really did have the action economy in mind. It's just, well... It's just as fair to suspect that the ranger having to give up its action to let his animal buddy do a thing is just a low-effort copy/paste from how 4E did it (see 4E fans? They do have something for everyone!) without any real understanding or concern for the actual reason it worked that way. Like, I find it kind of hard to swallow that there's one guy carefully fine-tuning the Ranger, sweating over the action economy, then another dude staring at a whiteboard with "MORE SKELETONS???" underlined several times, brow furrowing as he slowly nods to himself.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:25
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Generic Octopus posted:I would play 5e again if I could be a terrasque wizard. Thing is, it's pretty clear that something that lets a wizard trade squishiness for non-squishiness kind of breaks the supposed concept of being a wizard...
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Aug 12, 2014 00:28
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My suspicion would be either that it was just a fuckup, or that the old 'it's ~*#magic#*~ so gently caress the rules' saw was trotted out. After all, in traditional D&D summoners poo poo all over the action economy, so they have to do it here. Probably the latter.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:29
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Kai Tave posted:It's just as fair to suspect that the ranger having to give up its action to let his animal buddy do a thing is just a low-effort copy/paste from how 4E did it (see 4E fans? They do have something for everyone!) without any real understanding or concern for the actual reason it worked that way. Like, I find it kind of hard to swallow that there's one guy carefully fine-tuning the Ranger, sweating over the action economy, then another dude staring at a whiteboard with "MORE SKELETONS???" underlined several times, brow furrowing as he slowly nods to himself. It's 'cause Ranger is a martial class. Pretty much no one will give a poo poo about a martial class.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:30
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It's kinda stupid, but they reclarify the necromancy thing again, in the "schools of magic" sidebar: "Creating the undead through the use of necromancy spells such as animate dead is not a good act, and only evil casters use such spells frequently." Even though, y'know, some of the buffs you get as a necromancer are geared towards specifically animating the dead. So that's pretty dumb. I think "Summons don't take concentration but you can only have the results from one summoning spell active at a time" is a fine and smart rule - and since it's most interesting to play and just plain more respectful to people at the table, my guess is that this just implicitly happened with playtesters and wizards didn't think to write it down. Animate Dead as a 9th level spell is 13 skeletons. This seems likes a good "army of undead" that isn't absurdly stronger than the 17th level fighter (who they will outdamage over one round but probably not throughout the fight since they'll die super fast to any AoE). And anyway, it's probably hard to get any more undead than that through any sort of hallway since you have to give them each the SAME command with your bonus action.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:33
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Covok posted:Does anyone have anything they want added to the main post? I kind of haven't been following the thread much and I know how people like making cool player/GM game aids/custom classes/etc. Rename it to 5e and maybe feature the horde of the dragon queen supplement in the main post.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:35
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Balancing core class options with "this one means you're evil" has an implicit "and you shouldn't play evil characters" to it, doesn't it? In which case, why would you put that in the PHB, instead of the DMG? (With things like Paladin-falling)
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Aug 12, 2014 00:35
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eth0.n posted:It's 'cause Ranger is a martial class. Pretty much no one will give a poo poo about a martial class. Actually it's a caster class.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:37
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MonsterEnvy posted:Rename it to 5e Actually don't do this.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:37
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Kai Tave posted:Actually don't do this. I would prefer the title to be accurate instead of using an outdated name that they said was not the name of the game.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:37
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'necromancy s teh ebilz' always bugs me. In a society where it exists, unless it fucks with the actual souls of the dead, I can't see it remaining teh ebils for very long - using inexpensive magic to make the bodies of the dead do stuff that's distasteful to the living seems like it would make sound economic sense and people would probably wind up doing it a lot. That skeleton army should be the actual ARMY for the city, those zombies should be cleaning sewers and turning spits and pushing bellows etc etc. Seems like it would make sense, like in a lot of scifi where in closed-loop societies such as long-term space colonies, bodies are just more raw material... So, balancing mechanics with story doesn't work if people don't like your story. And let's face it, D&D isn't known for compelling and well-written worlds.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:39
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Balancing core class options with "this one means you're evil" has an implicit "and you shouldn't play evil characters" to it, doesn't it? In which case, why would you put that in the PHB, instead of the DMG? (With things like Paladin-falling) This is indeed weird. They even took out the evil Paladin and Cleric subclass and put them in the DMG. I guess it's because everyone would notice that one of the schools of magic was missing or somthing like that. Anyway well at least that Necromancy 100 or so skeletons is useless against the Tarrasque. (As they can't hurt it and it takes pretty much all of the wizards spells to create that army.) thespaceinvader posted:'necromancy s teh ebilz' always bugs me. In a society where it exists, unless it fucks with the actual souls of the dead, I can't see it remaining teh ebils for very long - using inexpensive magic to make the bodies of the dead do stuff that's distasteful to the living seems like it would make sound economic sense and people would probably wind up doing it a lot. That skeleton army should be the actual ARMY for the city, those zombies should be cleaning sewers and turning spits and pushing bellows etc etc. Well it does gently caress with the souls of the dead. Also the fact that undead kill any living thing they see unless told not to is a probbem as well. Given that they only remain controlled for 24 hours and a Level 11 Wizard is considered to be an super Wizard even among other Wizards means their won't be a ton of Wizards that can make huge armies of undead. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 00:40
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thespaceinvader posted:'necromancy s teh ebilz' always bugs me. In a society where it exists, unless it fucks with the actual souls of the dead, I can't see it remaining teh ebils for very long - using inexpensive magic to make the bodies of the dead do stuff that's distasteful to the living seems like it would make sound economic sense and people would probably wind up doing it a lot. That skeleton army should be the actual ARMY for the city, those zombies should be cleaning sewers and turning spits and pushing bellows etc etc. On the other hand, evil is a thing you can touch in D&D, so presumably you can measure the amount of evil-juice that is produced by every reanimated skeleton and determine that it is an inherently evil action.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:42
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hito posted:It's kinda stupid, but they reclarify the necromancy thing again, in the "schools of magic" sidebar: Just imagine, they could have a defined word, which could have definitions for rules attached to it, so they could easily affect all such spells, past present and future, with any change to that definition thereby affecting all spells which used that word. It could be called, oh, i don't know, a KEYWORD. Effectronica posted:On the other hand, evil is a thing you can touch in D&D, so presumably you can measure the amount of evil-juice that is produced by every reanimated skeleton and determine that it is an inherently evil action.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:42
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MonsterEnvy posted:Actually it's a caster class. It's a martial class that can cast some spells. Crucially, it sucked in 3.5, so it's sure to suck in 5e. But I guess will have to wait until all the splatbooks (sorry, "adventure supplements") come out to be sure.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:43
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eth0.n posted:It's a martial class that can cast some spells. No with Rangers it's more Caster that is also a good martial. And I don't think you get how the game works because some people have worked with it and determined that it does not suck at all. I should also tell you that Fighters don't suck ether.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:45
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The people I've talked to who have played games have not reported martials sucking particularly. I haven't really talked that much with them about details. One thing I do note: A fighter gets to take all attacks after moving, which is a huge buff compared to fighters in PF/3E.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:53
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From reading it, I agree that fighters don't suck, but it realllly does look like Beast Companion rangers suck. The CR never scales up and it takes my action to hit with the beast? What's the point? Also, I can't imagine how the Path of the Moon Druids wouldn't be crazy overpowered at level 2. While I think 5e does a lot to mitigate caster supremacy (the Battle Mater fighters look super fun), there's definitely still balance issues.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:56
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MonsterEnvy posted:Rename it to 5e and maybe feature the horde of the dragon queen supplement in the main post. Only mods can edit thread titles. You can ask Ettin to change it, if you want. I'll add the supplement soon.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:57
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MonsterEnvy posted:I would prefer the title to be accurate instead of using an outdated name that they said was not the name of the game. Right, I know.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:58
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seebs posted:The people I've talked to who have played games have not reported martials sucking particularly. I haven't really talked that much with them about details. the descent 2e-style movement is one of the better things about the edition actually - being able to use your movement as points during the turn rather than discrete actions is an improvement over 4e, though the 4e action-economy puzzle was often interesting.
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Aug 12, 2014 01:04
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