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LuiCypher posted:Look at all the peasant fighters working for their wizard overlords! Wealth=ability as a natural law is about as horribly libertarian as you can get.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:05
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Lord of Bore posted:I don't know how accurate a figure it is, but I remember reading once that for modern armourers it took somewhere around 1200 man hours to make a full suit of plate armour. Unfortunately I don't know if they were using modern stuff like power hammers though. But still, 4 hours a day, lazy bastards. yeah, this is why trying to equate D&D gold to an actual fantasy economy is dumb because as soon as you create a gold/day standard you have to ask why the farmer is so poor that a single gold coin is a months worth of food, feed, and supplies. Trying to work in reverse (which is probably what happened here) is what gives us a year for a suit of armor. The better metric would be "what can a character reasonably fashion in <downtime>" so that between adventures the players can setup shop or something. I've always loved the idea of merchant adventurers who have an emporium of sorts where they sell unwanted loot and crafted items. Crafting has always been a waste of rules though
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Aug 12, 2014 18:12
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Fabricate is fine because of the tool proficiency needed. No wizard can make a suit of plate with it unless they are smiths themselves. It dovetails nicely with the emphasis on backgrounds.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:12
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slydingdoor posted:Fabricate is fine because of the tool proficiency needed. No wizard can make a suit of plate with it unless they are smiths themselves. It dovetails nicely with the emphasis on backgrounds. It does pretty much mean that if you want to be a crafter you're always going to want to roll up with a wizard rather than a gruff, muscled blacksmith, though.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:17
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OtspIII posted:It does pretty much mean that if you want to be a crafter you're always going to want to roll up with a wizard rather than a gruff, muscled blacksmith, though. A wizard walks into a forge, and is greeted by the musclebound blacksmith. "Cute..." he remarks, removing his hat, "but check this out" *flexes scalp*
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Aug 12, 2014 18:27
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OtspIII posted:It does pretty much mean that if you want to be a crafter you're always going to want to roll up with a wizard rather than a gruff, muscled blacksmith, though. Plus if you want to be able to build bridges or ropes or clothes or ladders or sleds or halters or anthing easily - wizard.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:28
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OtspIII posted:It does pretty much mean that if you want to be a crafter you're always going to want to roll up with a wizard rather than a gruff, muscled blacksmith, though. The blacksmith fighter can craft armor all day though.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:33
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Eh, i've never really cared for any of D&D's crafting mechanics or rules. It really is an area you could conceivably sit down and come up with an entirely homebrew system without changing anything since there's barely anything there to change.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:38
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Generic Octopus posted:The blacksmith fighter can craft armor all day though. He'll have to if he wants to be ready for the dungeon delve I'm planning in 9 months 
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Aug 12, 2014 18:49
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Lord of Bore posted:He'll have to if he wants to be ready for the dungeon delve I'm planning in 9 months 10 months.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:53
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OtspIII posted:Simulation/simulationist is a horrible derail-causing word. There's the GNS description, the idea of reality-simulation, and then whatever weird private definitions people come to conversations with, all doing their best to try to get people to talk past each other. Pretty much this. So, for instance, if you decide to just charge off after something way bigger than you, you're likely to get smacked, because that's what would happen, etc. And in that context, the answer to "how many skeletons are there" depends on where you are and what makes sense given the world's established traits. Note also, I don't see anything saying you can point at someplace that you think there are probably bones underground, I think you actually have to point to bones.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:54
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Jack the Lad posted:10 months. You'll have to ask your DM, but I'd allow the fighter to make it quicker as long as he said he was also pulling all nighters and was ravaged by the stress
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Aug 12, 2014 19:00
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seebs posted:Pretty much this. So, for instance, if you decide to just charge off after something way bigger than you, you're likely to get smacked, because that's what would happen, etc. Adventurers are killing poo poo all the time. I'm not buying "dead bodies" to be in short supply.
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Aug 12, 2014 19:04
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You can find whole necropolis cities in most fantasy settings. It's like saying you can't form a peasant levy because of pitchfork and torch scarcity.
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Aug 12, 2014 19:14
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Chain pact sucks, though. You know what is worth giving up PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER? An "improved familiar" that does not scale at all. At 15th level, you can at-will hold a demon, though! Chain pact isn't great. "Get an invisible scouting pet that can deliver touch spells." But it's competing with other junk like "get 3 cantrips" and "you'll never be without a sword, Mr Spellcaster."
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Aug 12, 2014 19:15
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seebs posted:Pretty much this. So, for instance, if you decide to just charge off after something way bigger than you, you're likely to get smacked, because that's what would happen, etc. BRB, Off to genocide some Orcs, Goblins, monstrous humanoids, etc.
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Aug 12, 2014 19:21
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seebs posted:Pretty much this. So, for instance, if you decide to just charge off after something way bigger than you, you're likely to get smacked, because that's what would happen, etc. Thankfully Wizards also have Locate Object to find skeletons and Move Earth to dig them up! The "but what if you can't find skeletons" argument is the feeblest and most bizarre that has been levied against the whole thing. e: Except maybe "but what if the dragon doesn't hang around to fight you".
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Aug 12, 2014 19:40
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Jack the Lad posted:Thankfully Wizards also have Locate Object to find skeletons and Move Earth to dig them up! "Your dragon is in another castle."
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Aug 12, 2014 19:44
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treeboy posted:Eh, i've never really cared for any of D&D's crafting mechanics or rules. It really is an area you could conceivably sit down and come up with an entirely homebrew system without changing anything since there's barely anything there to change. Crafting mechanics are almost always universally dumb and boring, sure, but whether they're dumb or boring the fact that it's always more optimal to get a wizard to whip up your whatever than the most talented blacksmith in all the kingdoms is just another symptom of the bizarre fixation D&D and its creators have with magic. It's like, they can't even let fighters be the best at really boring mundane poo poo nobody cares about.
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Aug 12, 2014 19:53
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I want Fighters to have an ability like *Some name here* Encouter, Immediate Interrupt Trigger: When a spell targets you and hits Effect: Spend a reaction action to slice the spell in two rendering it void Or something of the sort. I want my fighter to be able to stop a spell. EDIT: Alternatively once you get into non heroic tiers, why doesn't the fighter get some Legendary actions like monsters.
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Aug 12, 2014 19:54
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Cerepol posted:I want Fighters to have an ability like
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Aug 12, 2014 20:02
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Cerepol posted:I want Fighters to have an ability like ImpactVector posted:That would be neat, but the Trigger should be: "When a spell targets you or an adjacent ally and hits" You can do this! Without it targeting you or an ally or hitting or anything. It's a spell, though, obviously   (You can cast it as a level 13 Eldritch Knight, or a level 5 Wizard.) Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 20:04
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http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/excerpt_sphinx Sphinx preview.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:12
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You know, if I had my way, I would have eliminated the Wizard class entirely, and given Vancian casting to everyone. Anyone can sit and study that scroll of cloudkill and bust it out later. Adjust the Sorcerers and Warlocks to be more focused mechanically, without overlapping the Vancian spells too much. "B-b-b-b-but if everyone can cast spells then what makes the spellcasters special!?!?!" They can still 
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Aug 12, 2014 20:13
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Jack the Lad posted:(You can cast it as a level 13 Eldritch Knight, or a level 5 Wizard.) I don't want to cast it I want to do it cause I'm a goddamn legendary fighter and wizards should be scared of me.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:13
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dwarf74 posted:Honestly, though, how hard is it to find an ancient battlefield? Or a kobold cave? How long do I have to go looking? How hard is it to find them, today, between now and when we want to fight the dragon? Maybe pretty hard. How hard is it to find them if I can take a month to go hunting? Pretty easy.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:14
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seebs posted:How long do I have to go looking?
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Aug 12, 2014 20:17
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WotC:  Paizo:  I legitimately like 5e's art.  I legitimately hate 5e's design. Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 20:24
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That is gorgeous art. I like the lair thing. In fact I'd like to see something like that as more common. That said, it's...a spellcaster. So, yeah.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:28
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seebs posted:Pretty much this. So, for instance, if you decide to just charge off after something way bigger than you, you're likely to get smacked, because that's what would happen, etc. For any given something to charge off after, if the Wizard with 40 skeletons (plus his chump party members) is "likely to get smacked", exactly what would happen without those skeletons, do you think? The point isn't that a Wizard gets 40 skeletons, and suddenly decides to go after the biggest baddest thing he can find. The point is that the Wizard with 40 skeletons will almost certainly naturally trivialize whatever a DM would naturally have a party face, were the DM not specifically targeting the overpowered Wizard. quote:And in that context, the answer to "how many skeletons are there" depends on where you are and what makes sense given the world's established traits. Why is the Wizard finding them on the spot, and not storing them on a cart drawn by a couple skeletons, or in his demiplane? It might be reasonable, with no intent of specific gameplay limitation, for a DM to limit how many skeletons a wizard can make when he has zero on hand, and has to rely on his surroundings. But that's a situation that has any likelyhood of occurring unless the DM has been specifically gunning for the wizard.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:30
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If there's one thing I remember about the myths and legends of the sphinx it's the time it cast heroes' feast as a 12th level spellcaster.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:36
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Jack the Lad posted:
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Aug 12, 2014 20:38
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Seriously, look at this pointlessly stupid, lovely way to design a monster. Fifteen, count'em, fifteen spells. What are sphinxes known for? Riddles and eating people. They're a giant winged lion-thing that likes asking riddles and eating people if they gently caress it up. Nothing about that concept demands fifteen loving cleric spells including heroes' feast, banishment, and detect good and evil. Now I get that D&D is not Myth Simulator 2014 (especially any of that Paul Bunyon poo poo, keep that away from my D&D thank you) and that it has its own slant on the creatures of mythology and sure, that's fine. But somebody sitting down going "man how do I stat out a sphinx for the hot new edition of D&D" then the lightbulb going off as he starts rapidly scribbling out a list of cleric spells is unbelievably ridiculous.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:43
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That sphinx's roar would totally ruin an army of skeletons.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:50
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Kai Tave posted:But somebody sitting down going "man how do I stat out a sphinx for the hot new edition of D&D" then the lightbulb going off as he starts rapidly scribbling out a list of cleric spells is unbelievably ridiculous.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:57
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I don't even know how many cleric spells sphinxes got or what level spellcaster they were in legacy editions of D&D, I just know that "make a monster, then give it a list of spells because why the gently caress not" is genuinely one of the laziest, most cargo-cult-y moves back in design they could possibly have gone with. There's no point to any of it. Look at the example sphinx in the preview...it's big, strong, it flies, it has a bunch of immunities (including nonmagical weapons of course), it's immune to mind-reading, its attacks are treated as magic weapons, and it has a powerful roar that it can use sequentially to greater effect up to three times. That's a perfectly viable monster! Right there, that works. Cut it, print it, it's fine. What it doesn't need is fifteen cleric spells because "well how else are people going to know spinxes are rad, oh I know, make'em a spellcaster."
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Aug 12, 2014 21:06
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ManMythLegend posted:But guys you're forgetting that jocks are really mean. Emilio Estevez in "The Breakfast Club" disagrees with you.
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Aug 12, 2014 21:13
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Kai Tave posted:I don't even know how many cleric spells sphinxes got or what level spellcaster they were in legacy editions of D&D, I just know that "make a monster, then give it a list of spells because why the gently caress not" is genuinely one of the laziest, most cargo-cult-y moves back in design they could possibly have gone with. There's no point to any of it. Look at the example sphinx in the preview...it's big, strong, it flies, it has a bunch of immunities (including nonmagical weapons of course), it's immune to mind-reading, its attacks are treated as magic weapons, and it has a powerful roar that it can use sequentially to greater effect up to three times. Plus it has a turf that does Magical Things without them needing to be spells. It makes walking into a Sphinx's Lair a thing where, if you pick a fight, even if you win you could be ten years out of time.
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Aug 12, 2014 21:23
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Wasn't one of the big problems with 3ed edition, that the random spell lists on high level monsters got so bad that a freaking Balrog was better off sitting back casting spells rather then you know flying over and smacking the party with its giant flaming whip? Good to know that "feels like DnD" now means lets repeat mistakes from 14 years ago.
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Aug 12, 2014 21:29
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Right, exactly. I mean personally some of that stuff seems a little pointlessly spiteful to me, like "oh yeah Bob, well now you're 1d20 years younger, whoops, looks like you're too weak to hold your sword now because plausibility, better get a spellcaster to fix it" but at least it's more interesting than "is a 12th level spellcaster, has 15 cleric spells." And looking at that spell list you know that some of those spells are on there simply because whoever designed that sphinx had to come up with a way for it to, say, be fluent in all languages (tongues) but just couldn't make the conceptual leap necessary to simply say (in naturalistic language no less) "Sphinxes are fluent in all languages."
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Aug 12, 2014 21:34
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