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Endman posted:Who the gently caress says "tu quoque" seriously in an internet argument. You get four candy canes for tu quoque. You go tu quoque!!
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Aug 13, 2014 13:26
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Those On My Left posted:I like you, Soag. Mate.
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Aug 13, 2014 13:27
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Haters Objector posted:I think there would be a pretty significant gap in humanitarian work in Australia if not for faith-based charities
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Aug 13, 2014 13:45
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I dunno, it'd have to be a hell of an organization to replace the light cajoling you get out of organized religion.
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Aug 13, 2014 13:49
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rudatron posted:Charity is not intrinsically faith based, lacking those church groups other kinds of charities would fill the void. I don't think they would. Churches have the resources to pour into that kind of stuff, and if the entire humanitarian sector relied on donations and government grants, which they would if it was all secular, there wouldn't be nearly as much money invested into it as there is now.
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Aug 13, 2014 13:51
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rudatron posted:Charity is not intrinsically faith based, lacking those church groups other kinds of charities would fill the void. Yeah, I'm not a fan of faith based charity at all. You should be secure enough in your faith to keep your poo poo secular when you're doing humanitarian work. Faith based poo poo is necessarily authoritarian. Plus the record of fbcs vs secular nfps is pretty self explanatory, compare msf to any religious healthcare provider and compare the child mortality rates of populations with Christian missionaries vs even the fucken peace corps Fruity Gordo fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 13:52
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But like yeah, I have to respond to soag and TOML because this poo poo really pisses me off. Do we seriously have to go through some bullshit Ditchkins poo poo again about how religion is regressive and atheism is the light and agnosticism is cowardice or can we just go back to our perennial consensus that religious belief is an inherent part of all humans and necessarily concern the divine or a lack thereof or ambivalence? Because arguing about how anti-homophobic Muslims are essentially apostates according to your assumptions and prejudices against Islam is loving stupid, and so is talking about how there's no point in being a follower of an explicitly progressive iteration of an ancient religion because... what? Give a reason. Science? Science and religion are separate, that is the entire point of the scientific method, to break from the authority of the church to allow for reasonable inquiry in both philosophical directions because they clearly diverge. One is based on empirical analysis, one is based in belief systems. Atheism is a belief system. How many loving times do secular scientists have to say that they are not concerned with god or faith in the work they do about the beginnings of the universe? They are not saying it for the benefit of the fundamentally religious. They are saying shut the gently caress up to the smug atheists who jump on any discovery of the universe to say 'lol where's your god'. God is still everywhere, dipshits. God is in everything because I can't explain how anything exists without it, nor can science, and nor can you. You might not see god in anything but everything I see has something to do with something incredible by virtue of the simple fact that it exists. And existence is marvellous and complex and hosed up and worth it and something caused it all to happen and I call that god.
Fruity Gordo fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 13:56
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if a belief in god is based on the incomprehension of certain phenomena does that mean that the federal cabinet, being much stupider and unable to comprehend more, is more pious than fruity gordo?
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Aug 13, 2014 14:04
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Laserface posted:Hey guys, all religion is actually terrible, hth. Hear hear.  Fruity Gordo posted:But like yeah, I have to respond to soag and TOML because this poo poo really pisses me off. Do we seriously have to go through some bullshit Ditchkins poo poo again about how religion is regressive and atheism is the light and agnosticism is cowardice Please tell me more about the god of the gaps. Negative Entropy fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 14:09
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explicitly progress
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It's not an inherent part of all humans or some aspect of human nature though, pre-civilized faith systems are completely different conceptually from modern ideas of faith. Religion has been, and always will be, historically & materially contingent. When it no longer satisfies its use, it won't exist anymore. It's the same with all other ideologies, you may as well say that human beings are intrinsically 'capitalist' or 'individualist'. The truth is that all of those things are created by the social conditions: they're guaranteed only so long as those conditions are true. rudatron fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 14:20
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Kommando posted:Hear hear. You really don't understand much. Show me the cause of the universe, and I'll show you god.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:23
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Turns out there are infinite conceptualisations of god and, despite what the internet atheists say, not everybody views god as a bearded caucasian man in a toga, swinging around on a cloud hammock and listening to prayers on his ham radio set
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Aug 13, 2014 14:28
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Shut up about religion, you dickheads.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:30
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Half baked enraged drivel
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Aug 13, 2014 14:32
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rudatron posted:It's not an inherent part of all humans or some aspect of human nature though, pre-civilized faith systems are completely different conceptually from modern ideas of faith. Religion has been, and always will be, historically & materially contingent. When it no longer satisfies its use, it won't exist anymore. Yeah, it is. I'm not talking about monotheism, I'm talking about creation myths. 'Nothing' is no more valid an idea of a cause of creation than one god or multiple gods. That's why physicists and mathematicians who aren't self-aggrandising and self-promoting dont go out of their way to try to convince the world that there's no such thing as god. Because god means nothing universally, it's an entirely individual belief and authoritarian religions are authoritarian, progressive religions are generally not. Your problem with religion is presumably with authoritarianism, unless you're actually really angry with the idea of people believing something different to you and you feel the need to tell them why over and over again, then you're an authoritarian too.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:32
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Fruity Gordo posted:You really don't understand much. Show me the cause of the universe, and I'll show you god. Why call that God, with all the baggage that word or entails, with all the confusion it can cause, and misunderstandings it can induce? Why not just say "show me the cause of the universe and I'll show you the cause of the universe"?
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Aug 13, 2014 14:33
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Haters Objector posted:I don't think they would. Churches have the resources to pour into that kind of stuff, and if the entire humanitarian sector relied on donations and government grants, which they would if it was all secular, there wouldn't be nearly as much money invested into it as there is now. Just take the money from the churches and distribute it amongst those who need it most. There, a perfect solution.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:35
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Actually Fruity existence is kinda poo poo but that's beside the point, even if one isn't religious it's pretty loving clear that religion is one of the few sources of hope for the billions of impoverished people in the world. Smug technophilia is one of the most bourgeois attitudes I can think of. If you think people wouldn't find reasons to hate and kill each other and ~hold back human progress~ in a totally atheist world then I don't know what to tell you. Extremist religious politics is only one of the many flavours of demagogy. Violence and "backwardsness" will always be more closely entwined with poverty and oppression. Basically nerds are poo poo
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Aug 13, 2014 14:35
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BlitzkriegOfColour posted:Just take the money from the churches and distribute it amongst those who need it most. There, a perfect solution. The churches don't exist in this hypothetical situation
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Aug 13, 2014 14:38
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Fruity Gordo posted:or can we just go back to our perennial consensus that religious belief is an inherent part of all humans and necessarily concern the divine or a lack thereof or ambivalence? This is not a consensus I've ever heard of, and this discussion is spiraling out of control. ONE OF THESE DAYS YOU JERKS WILL LEARN NOT TO RESPOND TO IWC, no matter how legit his arguments might appear. Religious people who oppress others are as bad as any other kind of oppressor, but not all IWC has, once again, managed to bait the whole thread. To be fair, it was a decent discussion for all of 5 posts! Also lol at IWC's "But everyone else in Asia is racist so we can be too!"
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Aug 13, 2014 14:39
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Karma police arrest this thread it's making me feel ill.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:39
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Splode posted:IWC has, once again, managed to bait the whole thread. I'm actually not unhappy that he did it now, trolls that manage to draw out people that unironically agree with them are doing a good deed
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Aug 13, 2014 14:42
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BlitzkriegOfColour posted:Why call that God, with all the baggage that word or entails, with all the confusion it can cause, and misunderstandings it can induce? Why not just say "show me the cause of the universe and I'll show you the cause of the universe"? Because I grew up with a belief in a thing called 'god' and always thought of it as the reason why things are here and I'm not going to change the way I express myself for the sake of some nerds who can't understand the difference between my interpretation of god and what they read in first year philosophy about the first uncaused cause.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:43
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Jonah Galtberg posted:Actually Fruity existence is kinda poo poo but that's beside the point, even if one isn't religious it's pretty loving clear that religion is one of the few sources of hope for the billions of impoverished people in the world. Smug technophilia is one of the most bourgeois attitudes I can think of. If you think people wouldn't find reasons to hate and kill each other and ~hold back human progress~ in a totally atheist world then I don't know what to tell you. Extremist religious politics is only one of the many flavours of demagogy. Violence and "backwardsness" will always be more closely entwined with poverty and oppression. Wish we could upvote posts.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:44
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I'm not even religious but smug Dawkins acolytes are so loving insufferable
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Aug 13, 2014 14:45
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"yeah maybe they'd still kill each other and hold terrible views on women and gays but at least it wouldn't be in service of a fictional being  "
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Aug 13, 2014 14:48
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I thought we all made fun of urseus or someone for basing his world view on what he thought as a toddler 
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Aug 13, 2014 14:51
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Fruity Gordo posted:Because I grew up with a belief in a thing called 'god' and always thought of it as the reason why things are here and I'm not going to change the way I express myself for the sake of some nerds who can't understand the difference between my interpretation of god and what they read in first year philosophy about the first uncaused cause. So, essentially, because tradition? The only problem I have with this arises when the unscrupulous sieze upon the word god to trick good people. See: evangelists quoting Einstein "god does not play dice", then raking in money hand over first from the dimwitted.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:51
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Aug 13, 2014 14:52
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
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fukt up if true
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Aug 13, 2014 14:53
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Fruity Gordo posted:But like yeah, I have to respond to soag and TOML because this poo poo really pisses me off. Do we seriously have to go through some bullshit Ditchkins poo poo again about how religion is regressive and atheism is the light and agnosticism is cowardice or can we just go back to our perennial consensus that religious belief is an inherent part of all humans and necessarily concern the divine or a lack thereof or ambivalence? What i'm interested in is the political and social expression of the community and how it interacts with broader society. I'm more interested in that than any atheocratic navel-gazing about angels dancing on pins, i certainly see no difference in validity in the spiritual claims of Muslims vs Christians. But australian christianity developed conterminously and symbiotically with the commonwealth of australia, Islam did not, and this is evident in their relationship to the state and the public. This a political argument, not a spiritual one.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:54
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Splode, what sparked this discussion I'm having was actually soag being an obnoxious shithead and asserting that there was no point to adhering to a progressive reformist religious movement like Reform Judaism. I would have ignored him because soag is a loving idiot about most things that reared deep thought, but TOML agreed with him and that's why I posted WORDS, which ultimately started the current discussion. It has poo poo all to do with the bullshit islamophobia of the previous discussion and is all about just how pathetic Australia is at secular religious education and just how insensitive and fundamentally insensible people who deny that they have faith can be
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Aug 13, 2014 14:55
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Fruity Gordo posted:Yeah, it is. I'm not talking about monotheism, I'm talking about creation myths. 'Nothing' is no more valid an idea of a cause of creation than one god or multiple gods. That's why physicists and mathematicians who aren't self-aggrandising and self-promoting dont go out of their way to try to convince the world that there's no such thing as god. Because god means nothing universally, it's an entirely individual belief and authoritarian religions are authoritarian, progressive religions are generally not. Your problem with religion is presumably with authoritarianism, unless you're actually really angry with the idea of people believing something different to you and you feel the need to tell them why over and over again, then you're an authoritarian too. Religion and the ideologies of society are determined by societies' social and material conditions, not the other way around. If you're saying that faith is intrinsic, then that is nothing but ahistorical special pleading. I'm not even referring to monotheism here, pre-civilized beliefs are not based around the idea of 'another world' or any of that, everything is immanent. That's actually very close to materialist atheism, it's just that the 'rules of operation' of the world are different! Transcendent religion is caused by the emergence of classes under the neolithic revolution, and the requirements of settled society to manage those class relations, just as pre-civilized beliefs were caused by the requirements to manage inter-personal relationships (the reduction of conspicuous consumption and a kind of justice system). You're no more valid in saying people are intrinsically religious then you are in saying people are intrinsically capitalist, or monarchist, or racist, or sexist, or whatever. rudatron fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 14:56
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:What i'm interested in is the political and social expression of the community and how it interacts with broader society. I'm more interested in that than any atheocratic navel-gazing about angels dancing on pins, i certainly see no difference in validity in the spiritual claims of Muslims vs Christians. Cool! What I'm not interested in is everything you post.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:57
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:But australian christianity developed conterminously and symbiotically with the commonwealth of australia, Islam did not, and this is evident in their relationship to the state and the public. Australian Christianity fell apart in the face of the Australian lifestyle. Let Moslems be here in peace and watch as it happens to their faith, too.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:58
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rudatron posted:'Nothing' is actually more valid via parsimony, but you're missing the point: by assuming it's a part of human nature, you're projecting your own way of thinking onto the 'space' of all possible human thought. Under this world view, atheists are somehow...not human? Sub-human? The special exception? And if they're the special exception, why are they a growing subgroup in western countries? Stop talking out your rear end.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:00
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Gough Suppressant posted:I thought we all made fun of urseus or someone for basing his world view on what he thought as a toddler When I was a small child I wanted to watch some educational children's TV, Playschool probably. Instead the ABC was showing some special session of parliament with John Howard front and centre. This has informed my dislike of the LNP to this day.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:03
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Fruity Gordo posted:Cool! What I'm not interested in is everything you post. But this is a politics thread and not a yeshiva, maybe come back when your magic 8 ball solves this riddle.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:03
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Jonah Galtberg posted:I'm not even religious but smug Dawkins acolytes are so loving insufferable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtyYlAH0f_M
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Aug 13, 2014 15:03
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Fruity Gordo posted:Not mine Reform Judaism owns Brian: Excuse me. Are you the Judean People's Front? Reg: gently caress off! 'Judean People's Front'. We're the People's Front of Judea! 'Judean People's Front'. Francis: Wankers. drunkill fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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