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Why is money-makes-right a better philosophy than might-makes-right anyways? I mean the social mobility of having an AK and homeboys who do too makes libertarian society seem stultifying in comparison.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:34
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Radbot posted:Why is money-makes-right a better philosophy than might-makes-right anyways? I mean the social mobility of having an AK and homeboys who do too makes libertarian society seem stultifying in comparison. It's Liberty makes right. You need to remove all the constraints on people so they have maximized their liberty, and then they will cast aside their violent ways.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:37
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VitalSigns posted:Any minute now another DRO is going to arise in the free marketplace of force in Northern Iraq, promising not to loot banks, extort money from towns, or behead Shias, and their superior customer service will lure away customers and bankrupt ISIS That will never happen. Jeez, haven't you read anything from Libertarian scholars? They all agree that libertarian principles only apply to whites.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:37
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I don't see how a libertarian society will make, say , organized retail crime go away. Those guys steal things for a living and unless each business runs background checks at the door (an expensive and time consuming process that would annoy legitimate customers) there's no way to prevent them from entering. I guess in a libertarian society you can hire guards to physically stop suspected thieves but I'm not sure how that's different than calling the police other than possibly more violence & shootings.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:41
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Cheekio posted:It's Liberty makes right. You need to remove all the constraints on people so they have maximized their liberty, and then they will cast aside their violent ways. Obviously not though? Making hordes of disenfranchised poor people doesn't usually lead to less violence. Then again that is a historical and not a praxeological perspective.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:43
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VitalSigns posted:No, the HRO's other customers would voluntarily cast-out and shun the coverage-dropper from society and commerce because the alternative is losing their own coverage and facing a slow death by starvation. So does that make IS a DRO then? On a more serious note, how does a DRO not constitute a state authority besides mental handwaving and moving goal posts to satisfy the emotional need for "logical consistency" by libertarians for their own made up rules? At the heart of it, it just seems like one giant head game to confuse people into thinking human compassion is illogical and should be rejected to embrace selfishness, authoritarianism, and violence as the stable state of human experience.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:52
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Radbot posted:Lol Hamas is a literal DRO Currently engaging in some market competition with DRO Israel. All of those dead children probably deserved it because they didn't choose to be covered by the more powerful DRO.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:53
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:Currently engaging in some market competition with DRO Israel. All of those dead children probably deserved it because they didn't choose to be covered by the more powerful DRO. No no, they deserved it because they're an inferior race, keep up with it, man. ...I'd say we should probably stop going back to the racial thing given that we are about at this point beating a dead horse but then http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/12/texas-sovereign-citizen-sets-dumpster-fire-reports-self-missing-to-set-up-police-ambush/ this just happened recently.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:59
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TheRamblingSoul posted:On a more serious note, how does a DRO not constitute a state authority besides mental handwaving and moving goal posts to satisfy the emotional need for "logical consistency" by libertarians for their own made up rules? At the heart of it, it just seems like one giant head game to confuse people into thinking human compassion is illogical and should be rejected to embrace selfishness, authoritarianism, and violence as the stable state of human experience. I believe the idea is that the Libertarian will be in control of a DRO so he can turn "state authority" into a tool for his own purposes.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:07
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gradenko_2000 posted:I believe the idea is that the Libertarian will be in control of a DRO so he can turn "state authority" into a tool for his own purposes. For the record, I mentally substitute the word "corporation" with the words "fief" or "noble" and suddenly the world makes sense again in Libertopia-land. "No, guys, really! Corporations and States are not the same at all!"
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Aug 13, 2014 15:09
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Who What Now posted:That will never happen. Jeez, haven't you read anything from Libertarian scholars? They all agree that libertarian principles only apply to whites. Oh God right, I forgot. Iraq is terra nullius because those benighted savages in the cradle of civilization aren't really mixing their labor with the land. platedlizard posted:I don't see how a libertarian society will make, say , organized retail crime go away. Those guys steal things for a living and unless each business runs background checks at the door (an expensive and time consuming process that would annoy legitimate customers) there's no way to prevent them from entering. I guess in a libertarian society you can hire guards to physically stop suspected thieves but I'm not sure how that's different than calling the police other than possibly more violence & shootings. The problem is that today's police are ostensibly bound by degenerate liberal concepts like "probable cause" and "due process". In Libertopia where there are competing systems of law, you're free to hire a security company that has a contract with courts who will protect every property owner's right to gun down undesireables at the door.
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Aug 13, 2014 15:13
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VitalSigns posted:The problem is that today's police are ostensibly bound by degenerate liberal concepts like "probable cause" and "due process". In Libertopia where there are competing systems of law, you're free to hire a security company that has a contract with courts who will protect every property owner's right to gun down undesireables at the door. And you can be sure that the person deserved to get shot because the DRO shot them. See, isn't everything so much simpler if you just replace the State with Liberty and circular reasoning?
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Aug 13, 2014 15:30
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ Chomsky slams An-Cap.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:13
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Radbot posted:As ridiculously conservative as Australia has become, you are nowhere near the US in that regard. Most libertarians, and hell, many Americans conservatives, believe the disabled should gently caress off and die, full stop, since they're not able to contribute economically in the same way (the only way that matters). This really cannot be emphasized enough. This attitude is so pervasive in American culture here that people in desperate need of help will refuse to seek help until they are sometimes literally forced to by hunger/being committed, because of the stigma of being "one of those people". Filing for disability here is often a 2 year process of misery and humiliation where you have to justify your right to continue existing to a panel of experts trained to find ways to refuse you. And then after all that you get the label of moocher for accepting $800 a month to somehow live off of.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:17
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Prester John posted:This really cannot be emphasized enough. This attitude is so pervasive in American culture here that people in desperate need of help will refuse to seek help until they are sometimes literally forced to by hunger/being committed, because of the stigma of being "one of those people". Very true, and I guess I shouldn't have said conservatives. Most liberals think the disabled and economically disadvantaged should gently caress off and die, too: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/490/trends-with-benefits
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Aug 13, 2014 16:22
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China Mieville posted:Libertarianism is not a ruling-class theory. It may be indulged, certainly, for the useful ideas it can throw up, and its prophets have at times influenced dominant ideologies–witness the cack-handed depredations of the “Chicago Boys” in Chile after Allende’s bloody overthrow. But untempered by the realpolitik of Reaganism and Thatcherism, the anti-statism of “pure” libertarianism is worse than useless to the ruling class.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:31
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Counterpoint:
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Aug 13, 2014 16:34
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I'm kind of torn, though. Libertarianism probably does a lot of kids growing up in Republican-dominated areas a great deal of good as an outlet for political identity outside of doctrinaire conservatism.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:44
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Hodgepodge posted:I'm kind of torn, though. Libertarianism probably does a lot of kids growing up in Republican-dominated areas a great deal of good as an outlet for political identity outside of doctrinaire conservatism. If only there was an alternative, socially unacceptable if it must be, to the Republican Party...
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Aug 13, 2014 16:50
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Hodgepodge posted:I'm kind of torn, though. Libertarianism probably does a lot of kids growing up in Republican-dominated areas a great deal of good as an outlet for political identity outside of doctrinaire conservatism. It isn't good if the outlet for political identity takes them further to the right on several issues than their parents are. I bet mom and dad are all smiles and nods at junior proclaiming his love for the free market, until he goes on a rant about how we need to end Social Security and Medicare RIGHT NOW!
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Aug 13, 2014 17:21
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 What emotion is this?
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Aug 13, 2014 17:26
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Hey baby lot's of freedom back at my place
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Aug 13, 2014 17:28
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Typical Pubbie posted:It isn't good if the outlet for political identity takes them further to the right on several issues than their parents are. I bet mom and dad are all smiles and nods at junior proclaiming his love for the free market, until he goes on a rant about how we need to end Social Security and Medicare RIGHT NOW! Also how tipping or always putting down the toilet lid are irrational demands on their Liberty. I'd like to think that this as a wake-up call for a lot of conservatives that their market-centric ideology is producing children who value loyalty to the idea of "the market" in ways one usually values a religion or nationality.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:41
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SedanChair posted:
lol trick question: reptiles don't have emotions.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:42
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Organized crime won't exist in libertopia because the holy trinity of gang activity (gambling, drugs, loan sharking) will be completely legal. They'll just be organizations. Actually is there any standard ancap response to the problem of predatory lending? It's hard to imagine that it won't be even more astoundingly profitable in libertopia than it is in real life.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:47
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platedlizard posted:I don't see how a libertarian society will make, say , organized retail crime go away. Those guys steal things for a living and unless each business runs background checks at the door (an expensive and time consuming process that would annoy legitimate customers) there's no way to prevent them from entering. I guess in a libertarian society you can hire guards to physically stop suspected thieves but I'm not sure how that's different than calling the police other than possibly more violence & shootings. With whom? Background checks are provided almost entirely by state agencies at this point, and dont forget in libertopia theres no telecommunications so requests for said non existant thing would have to be run to wherever it would not br done by road warrior postmen.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:52
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Come to think of it, the only person I know whose sympathy for libertarian ideas I understand or respect refers to any situation in which he can apply them in practice as a "scam."
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Aug 13, 2014 17:58
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YourHealthyColon posted:Actually is there any standard ancap response to the problem of predatory lending? It's hard to imagine that it won't be even more astoundingly profitable in libertopia than it is in real life. Predatory lending only exists because the government forced banks to make loans to In a free market, predatory lending would never happen because a rational, profit-seeking bank would never risk insolvency by making loans without vetting people for ability to pay. VVVVVVV Oh, that kind of predatory lending. Uh, well in that case the government is actually hurting people with usury laws and disclosure laws, because those absurdly high rates and dishonest business practices are the only way some people with bad credit scores can get access to loans. In a truly free market, Payday Loans would be even more widespread at even higher rates, giving everyone the tools to get a loan and bootstrap themselves up. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 18:24
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Yes, I'm sure Payday lending place with APRs in the hundreds or thousands of percent only exist because the government wants them to.
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Aug 13, 2014 18:28
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And if anyone actually believes that, then I've got this lovely bridge to Tarabitha up for sale going cheap..
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Aug 13, 2014 21:46
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Radbot posted:Yes, I'm sure Payday lending place with APRs in the hundreds or thousands of percent only exist because the government wants them to.
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Aug 13, 2014 21:55
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twodot posted:In an ancap situation, we don't have a central currency, so I'm not even sure what lending looks like, or how you would go about recovering resources from people who refused to pay. I'm imagining "I'll lend you this tractor now in exchange for 1000X the value of the tractor in beans at the end of the season", followed up with, "gently caress you, I sold the beans for gold and buried it in the forest, now what?" The only incentive to pay I can see is either fear of violence (in that case why not just rob people directly?) or fear of loss of reputation, but if we think fear of loss of reputation (the goto hand wave) will induce people to pay (and thus why loans companies would exist at all in the first place), presumably loan companies couldn't act more predatory than the community thought was good without themselves losing reputation. Now maybe "more predatory than the community thought was good" is still too predatory, but that's a problem we also have with democracy. Here's what it looks like: you get paid in company scrip that can buy stuff from the company store. Only what they pay you only covers 95% of what your living expenses will be, so eventually you go to the company-owned payday loan division to get extra scrip. Now you're missing your expenses by 15% instead of 5% each month. So eventually you need another loan. Flash forward a few years and you sell yourself as a willing slave to buy your family out of indentured servitude but it's okay because it's a rational action to make every step down to hell. 
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Aug 13, 2014 22:39
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Hey nerds. Use some lube when you circlejerk so hard that an-cap=libertarian, it'll keep your parts from getting ripped off.Serrath posted:I assumed this would be the answer... disability rights and social safety nets for people unable to care for themselves is one of my particular interests (full disclosure, I'm a psychologist and working with disadvantaged groups is virtually 100% of my practice) so I guess I'm looking for specifics. Like, I get that the free market will step in and MAGIC but I'm interested to know if any libertarian thinkers have really taken the effort to articulate clearly how they imagine the most vulnerable populations will be cared for in their utopia... even if unrealistic, I'm curious to know what mechanics they'd generate (short of allowing the disabled to die in the street, of course). For a serious answer to your post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM F.A. Hayek posted:The assurance of a certain minimum income for everyone, or a sort of floor below which nobody need fall even when he is unable to provide for himself, appears not only to be wholly legitimate protection against a risk common to all, but a necessary part of the Great Society in which the individual no longer has specific claims on the members of the particular small group into which he was born.
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Aug 13, 2014 22:49
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Mo_Steel posted:Flash forward a few years and you sell yourself as a willing slave to buy your family out of indentured servitude but it's okay because it's a rational action to make every step down to hell. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that predatory lending wouldn't be a problem, I'm suggesting that if you create an an-cap society such that lending is even possible (lenders believe they can actually collect payments, debtors have non-violent reasons to give payments), it most likely could only be because you've passed a lot of other hurdles, which would imply a problem like predatory lending would have solutions (like reputation).
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Aug 13, 2014 23:05
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Radbot posted:As ridiculously conservative as Australia has become, you are nowhere near the US in that regard. Most libertarians, and hell, many Americans conservatives, believe the disabled should gently caress off and die, full stop, since they're not able to contribute economically in the same way (the only way that matters). But becoming disabled just isn't something that would ever happen to a clever enlightened libertarian! So they don't have to worry about it. If you got disabled, you must've just hosed up.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:20
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Kinda strange request, but does anyone have a link to JRod's old thread that had a title that was something like "When is it okay to use force against innocent people?" or something like that? I vaguely remember the first reply to the thread being something like "When nobody is looking ^__^". I'm trying to find it but I'm having no luck, and I remember there was a lot of gold in that thread.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:27
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DrProsek posted:Kinda strange request, but does anyone have a link to JRod's old thread that had a title that was something like "When is it okay to use force against innocent people?" or something like that? I vaguely remember the first reply to the thread being something like "When nobody is looking ^__^". I'm trying to find it but I'm having no luck, and I remember there was a lot of gold in that thread. Here you go.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:31
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Also note the giant ASCII Ron Paul art halfway down the page.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:31
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 much obliged!StandardVC10 posted:Also note the giant ASCII Ron Paul art halfway down the page. Truly, a work of art 
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Aug 13, 2014 23:34
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Speaking of Ron Paul, has anyone ever tried singing the Be Prepared parody made in his name?
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Aug 13, 2014 23:36
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