|
I too am going to pay multiple dollars of Obama's fiat money for this game now that I know it's bad and/or I am still holding out hope it will be fixed by some future supplement or celestial phenomenon. I love sitting on the toilet reading about how powerful wizards are, and imagining how powerful they won't be in the near future because of the work ethic and competence of one Mike Mearls.
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 15:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 21:36 |
|
|
Well, it's not as if we didn't know this board is where all the 4e grogs hang out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 15:54
|
|
|
Full disclosure, I plan to dig it out of a $5 used bin in three years. Edit: that's hella disingenuous, yo moths fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Aug 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 15:54
|
|
|
Payndz posted:RAW, doesn't Animate Dead only allow you to create at most 13 skeletons at once, not 40+? You get two extra per level of spell slot used, not the caster's actual level. So if you cast it from your L9 spell slot that's your initial one skeleton, plus two for each of the six slot levels above 3rd. (Arcane Recovery lets you create another 13 that day, I guess, assuming you're L18 or higher.) I think the problem is there's nothing to stop you from casting Animate Dead multiple times with every spell slot you've got until you're drowning in skeletons.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 15:59
|
|
|
Or resting eight hours and using the same slot again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:04
|
|
|
treeboy posted:over the past couple pages it's really sunk in that by and large nobody here is even planning on playing the game or interested in running the game or assisting those that do. The vast majority of posts are by people who have zero interest in D&D, or this edition, and will not be purchasing the rules. For this reason I'm not sure why the thread even exists, it serves no practical purpose. I have an interest in D&D. I will try 5e at least once or twice. However, what people have been discovering about 5e is that it's lazy copy-paste design jazzed up by some really nice art. Example - Advantage/Disadvantage is a Cool Thing sort of lifted from FATE that circumvents the need for flat modifiers! Plus, it seems to make a lot of sense. Throw 50+ skeletons at it - which is something totally rules-legal and not at all an obscure combo - and this Cool Thing starts to strain under the weight of a poorly thought-out system, demonstrating that despite the whole 'public playtest' thing, they never really released enough materials for people to actually properly playtest the system and find out what doesn't work. In short, they went back and rehashed old materials and slapped on some new paint without thoroughly testing how the two interacted with each other. That's lazy design and sloppy testing. They also subscribed to the "it's not a bug, it's a feature!" school of design by deigning all rules conflicts (of which there are many thanks to the design) to be the province of the DM, in addition to the grand return of the severely overpowered wizard. Let me put it this way - you know when you were a kid and your favorite drat thing in the world was a hot dog (or rough crappy-food equivalent)? Like seriously, you liked hot dogs so much you had them every drat meal and you'd turn your nose up at the notion of something like sushi. Eventually though you grow up and you learn how to cook real food or you go out to restaurants and have real food and that poo poo is just mind-blowing. 3e is like that crappy food you liked as a kid. Sure, it's not great but it was loving AMAZING at the time. 4e is like that food you grow up to appreciate. Yeah, it's weird at first but you end up liking it. 5e is like going to a sushi place and having them slam down a big ol' bratwurst in front of you. Yes, it's better than the hot dogs you used to eat as a kid, but you were expecting some decent sushi. Edit: The fact that we're already finding ways to break the game kind of goes to show you that hiring Zak S. and RPGPundit as consultants for the express purpose of 'breaking the game' was a waste of money. Nevermind their personal politics and public failings - WotC didn't give them what they needed (like, uh, the entire system) in order to break it. LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Aug 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:06
|
|
|
Son of a Vondruke! posted:I think the problem is there's nothing to stop you from casting Animate Dead multiple times with every spell slot you've got until you're drowning in skeletons. Drowning in Skeletons is the name of my Zeppelin cover band / LARP crew. In regards to the tone of the discussion regarding 5e, there is a difference between criticism and cynicism. This thread represents good examples of both, but it's clear that there are some deep, fundamental issues with the very mechanical fabric of Next/5e that have largely been solved by many recent games. The overall power of the Animate Dead spell, regardless of whether it was intentional or not, shows a lack of testing and evaluation which could have been avoided in the last few years that the game has been worked on. In a game largely acclaimed as the frontrunner of the entire industry, that is concerning.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:07
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Well, it's not as if we didn't know this board is where all the 4e grogs hang out. It's why you see more criticisms of 5e's mechanics, instead of more grumbling about warlords. (there is some of that, too, but recent talk has been about 5e's own mechanics.)
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:11
|
|
|
Payndz posted:RAW, doesn't Animate Dead only allow you to create at most 13 skeletons at once, not 40+? You get two extra per level of spell slot used, not the caster's actual level. So if you cast it from your L9 spell slot that's your initial one skeleton, plus two for each of the six slot levels above 3rd. (Arcane Recovery lets you create another 13 that day, I guess, assuming you're L18 or higher.) The spell dosent have to be maintained, you cast it and the skeletons exist forever (till they get undeaded by damage) every day you can recast the spell at a more efficient way to maintain control of them (base 4 +2 / level above third) so you can control 20 skeletons with 2 3rd level slots and 2 4th level (4+4+6+6)
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:14
|
|
|
LuiCypher posted:Edit: The fact that we're already finding ways to break the game kind of goes to show you that hiring Zak S. and RPGPundit as consultants for the express purpose of 'breaking the game' was a waste of money. Nevermind their personal politics and public failings - they simply didn't do their jobs. Either that or WotC didn't give them what they needed (like, uh, the entire system) in order to break it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:15
|
|
|
MadScientistWorking posted:If they received the same amount of information that the private playtest did then they didn't give them what they needed. I know someone who basically said that they weren't done with the spell list at a time in which they should have been publishing the book. Thanks for the clarification - I changed my above post to point more fairly at WotC, since I'm now fairly certain they poo poo the bed on that one. Edit: Still a waste of money to hire consultants to break an unfinished product. It's very clear that this entire edition was rushed out the door to make it out this year for some reason... LuiCypher fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Aug 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:26
|
|
|
Stormgale posted:The spell dosent have to be maintained, you cast it and the skeletons exist forever (till they get undeaded by damage) every day you can recast the spell at a more efficient way to maintain control of them (base 4 +2 / level above third) so you can control 20 skeletons with 2 3rd level slots and 2 4th level (4+4+6+6) This is one of the things that really shows they're even ignoring stuff from 3.5, Animate Dead imposed a hard limit of how many skeletons you could control based on your caster level.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:28
|
|
|
There's plenty of stuff in the February playtest that wasn't fixed, including Animate Dead.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:28
|
|
|
So does anyone have the adventure? I've heard the pdf is required for running it, since it doesn't have stat blocks? Is this right? If so, what were they thinking?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:34
|
|
|
Stormgale posted:The spell dosent have to be maintained, you cast it and the skeletons exist forever (till they get undeaded by damage) every day you can recast the spell at a more efficient way to maintain control of them (base 4 +2 / level above third) so you can control 20 skeletons with 2 3rd level slots and 2 4th level (4+4+6+6) An L20 wizard (a necromancer, obviously) gets mastery of two L3 spells, which can be cast at-will as if in L3 slots any number of times with a short rest between them. Animate Dead is an L3 spell. So let's say that Nigel Necro has just woken up after a nice long rest, which he used to make sure that every one of his spell slots of L3 or higher is filled with Animate Dead (he's been planning this for a while). So that's 15 castings (3@L3, 3@L4, 3@L5, 2@L6, 2@L7, 1@L8 and 1@L9), and his plan is to take four short rests over the course of the day. That gives him another five L3 castings thanks to Signature Spell. Shame both of those can't be the same spell, but hey. So in terms of numbers of skeletons produced per day, that's 8@L3, 9@L4 (1+2, x3), 15@L5 (1+4, x3), 21@L6 (1+6, x3), 27@L7 (1+8, x3), 33@L8 (1+10, x3) and 39@L9 (1+12, x3). That's a grand total of 152 skeletons. Not bad for a day's work! And there's still enough time left in the 24 hour period to use part of a single action to command them to gently caress up somebody's poo poo. Fake edit: poo poo, I forgot that he can recover ten levels-worth of spell slots once per day during a short rest, too! So that could be one L6 and one L4 slot of Animate Dead, or two L5s - either way, that's another 30 skeletons. 182 in all! Real edit: oops, shat the bed there with the maths because I cast each level three times. It should actually be 8@L3, 9@L4 (1+2, x3), 15@L5 (1+4, x3), 14@L6 (1+6, x2), 18@L7 (1+8, x2), 11@L8 (1+10, x1) and 13@L9 (1+12, x1), for a mere 88, then only an extra 10 from the spell recovery. Only 98 skeletons. Sorry, Nigel. 
Small Strange Bird fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Aug 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:40
|
|
|
Best thing about 5e is the idea of a setting run by rear end in a top hat wizards having contracts with towns and running poo poo. I'm already imaging Wizard World.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:40
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:So does anyone have the adventure? Buddy of mine started running it last night, I can confirm that this is true as it pertains to monsters but not NPCs. Also I ran Murder in Baldur's Gate to screw with the playtest rules months ago and it had the exact same issue. It's like this is SOP or something now. That said, it's like 96 pages without most of the stat blocks, which implies that there is a lot of something in there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:44
|
|
|
Payndz posted:Okay, now I'm going to try to hit Peak Skeleton. I'm just waiting to see which splatbook is going to bring the Permanency spell back... 
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 16:47
|
|
|
Alright, since 5e is going with "Ranger spends their action on their pet attacking," can a ranger upgrade their pet equivalent to a weapon? Like, if they decide to focus on BEASTMASTERING instead of archery or stabbing, will their damage scale?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 21:01
|
|
|
LuiCypher posted:I'm just waiting to see which splatbook is going to bring the Permanency spell back... Yet another example of how wizards got really OPed in 3rd ed. Permanency used to permanently(ha!)lower your Constitution by 1, no excepts, no restorations. Which pretty much puts a hard limit on how many times you can cast it. Add in a possibility of failure so you lose that Con for nothing, and it starts not looking like such a good spell.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 21:22
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:So does anyone have the adventure? That they did not want to clog up the book with 30 extra pages of monster stats. They included all the NPCs in the book and I prefer the supplement being a pdf to being in the book. Plus I think you would like it better like this. You have stated you hate having to look up monster powers and if the monster stats are in a different document you don't have to flip through the book looking for the monster stats. http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/HoardDragonQueen_Supplement1.pdf
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:00
|
|
|
Mormon Star Wars posted:Alright, since 5e is going with "Ranger spends their action on their pet attacking," can a ranger upgrade their pet equivalent to a weapon? Like, if they decide to focus on BEASTMASTERING instead of archery or stabbing, will their damage scale? I think the best damage is the Flying Snake (+12, 7 piercing +3d4 no-save poison, flyby) but it's tiny so no flying mount. If the you take Damage Feats and stat boosts you'll probably outdamage the beast hit for hit, but since you top out at two attacks and get to trade one of yours for two of the beast's, it's probably worth it. There's also things like being able to share speed and spells, using it as cover or a meatshield. Even if the enemy has some bullshit immunity the beast can still throw out Help for your bonus action. Were I to play one, I think I'd end up as a halfling with two hand crossbows on a pteranodon, and kite dragons to death solo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:13
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:That they did not want to clog up the book with 30 extra pages of monster stats. They included all the NPCs in the book and I prefer the supplement being a pdf to being in the book. Plus I think you would like it better like this. You have stated you hate having to look up monster powers and if the monster stats are in a different document you don't have to flip through the book looking for the monster stats. But they put 32 extra pages in the Monster Manual for us free of charge! I call shenanigans on WotC.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:23
|
|
|
Just checked out the morning star app on an iPad. Has promise, I'll play with it some more later this gencon.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:24
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:That they did not want to clog up the book with 30 extra pages of monster stats. They included all the NPCs in the book and I prefer the supplement being a pdf to being in the book. Plus I think you would like it better like this. You have stated you hate having to look up monster powers and if the monster stats are in a different document you don't have to flip through the book looking for the monster stats. You don't have to flip through the adventure book to find the relevant monster stats, but you have to flip through an entirely separate document. It doesn't address that problem at all. Are you really saying it's more convenient to not include the relevant stats for the monsters in a published adventure?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:25
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:if the monster stats are in a different document you don't have to flip through the book looking for the monster stats. "We heard people didn't like flipping back & forth in the book, so we decided to put relevant material somewhere else entirely." In all seriousness, I get what you're saying; print the pdf and have it open to the monster(s) while the adventure book is open to whatever. Just seems odd to not have it all together from the start.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:27
|
|
|
Also Umber Hulk. http://dreadgazebo.net/5e-dnd-monster-preview-umber-hulk/
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:29
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:That they did not want to clog up the book with 30 extra pages of monster stats. They included all the NPCs in the book and I prefer the supplement being a pdf to being in the book. Plus I think you would like it better like this. You have stated you hate having to look up monster powers and if the monster stats are in a different document you don't have to flip through the book looking for the monster stats. OR, or, or, they could have monster stats be concise and only the things you need to know about the monsters (Damage, HP, Defenses, Attacks, special abilities, maybe a little note for demeanor), not give monsters spells or SLA's and take up, like, half a page at most in the relevant page so that it's simple and convenient! Oh, and not caring about slightly bloated pagecount on a thing you're releasing as a free PDF.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:33
|
|
|
I made a chart of how many skeletons it takes to beat the Fighter's DPR, on average, at each PC level and enemy AC:  I've included my earlier chart of how many skeletons you can summon or control at each level, too. There's been a lot of talk about the crazy number of skeletons you can summon, but not much about how few it takes to obsolete other classes. Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Aug 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:40
|
|
|
Raenir K. Artemi posted:OR, or, or, they could have monster stats be concise and only the things you need to know about the monsters (Damage, HP, Defenses, Attacks, special abilities, maybe a little note for demeanor), not give monsters spells or SLA's and take up, like, half a page at most in the relevant page so that it's simple and convenient! Oh, and not caring about slightly bloated pagecount on a thing you're releasing as a free PDF. Another thing that's nice about it being a free pdf is the fact that it is free and you can use these monsters even if you don't own the adventure.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:49
|
|
|
Payndz posted:Fake edit: I also just noticed this in the Basic DMG: "A green dragon is recognised by the crest that begins near its eyes and continues down its spine, reaching full height just behind the skull." Not because, I dunno, it's green? All Next adventures actually happen in black and white for full nostalgia.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 22:54
|
|
|
Mormon Star Wars posted:Alright, since 5e is going with "Ranger spends their action on their pet attacking," can a ranger upgrade their pet equivalent to a weapon? Like, if they decide to focus on BEASTMASTERING instead of archery or stabbing, will their damage scale? slydingdoor posted:Yeah, beasts get to add your proficiency to their everything, including damage. The mastiff, hawk, and panther aren't the best, though. A pteranodon will eventually be hitting twice at +9 for 2d4+7 damage, with flyby (doesn't provoke opp attacks), and is medium so a halfling might be able to ride it. A medium wolf: +10, advantage with adjacent ally, for 2d4+8 piercing, DC 11 str save or prone. At Ranger 11th your pet gets two attacks per your "Attack" order, so that's something. At that point you can get one of your weapon attacks and two of its whatevers OR using its "Help" you can get two attacks, one with Advantage. Aside from small defensive buffs like casting Barkskin for AC or temporary HP from Enhance Ability, I can't really find much about making companions any better at all. Not even a Magic Fang in this edition so far. I guess you could buy it some barding at quadruple the cost of regular armor and see if your GM will allow you to get a Wizard to enchant it. How hard can it be to buy some plate mail for your flying snake?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 23:26
|
|
|
One really good thing about this edition is that all the art I've seen is rad as hell. I do have a rules question about this monster entry. What happens if Dispel Magic is cast on a PC that's been affected by the Umber Hulk's Confusing Gaze? What happens to the Confusing Gaze ability if Counterspell is cast? This is a question about the rules that we can all see for those things, not anything else. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Aug 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 23:27
|
|
|
Jack the Lad posted:I made a chart of how many skeletons it takes to beat the Fighter's DPR, on average, at each PC level and enemy AC: What assumptions were made for the Fighter?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 23:32
|
|
|
Raenir K. Artemi posted:OR, or, or, they could have monster stats be concise and only the things you need to know about the monsters (Damage, HP, Defenses, Attacks, special abilities, maybe a little note for demeanor), not give monsters spells or SLA's and take up, like, half a page at most in the relevant page so that it's simple and convenient! Oh, and not caring about slightly bloated pagecount on a thing you're releasing as a free PDF. Remember 2e Planescape? The box set came with a monstrous supplement with some cool poo poo in it, and then there were 3 or 4 separate monster books you could buy and then there were various other adventures and box sets and stuff that all had more monsters. Then you had the way Planescape could take you to and from literally every other published setting, and then there are NPCs and stuff to consider too. Basically, there were more potential monsters and opponents that all other published settings combined. When any monster or opponent appeared in an adventure, there were these tiny 3-line stripped statblocks to help you out. They had the relevant stuff for the encounter.  Those were awesome. They didn't really take up much space. A full adventure would probably have 1-2 pages of those total, were you to put them all together with spacing and stuff. e: If you wanted to do this for Next, you could. Warriors(4)(Orc/CE): S+3,D+1,C+3,I-2 AC13 SP30 HP15 XP100 Greataxe +5,5',9s(1d12+3) Javelin +5,5'(30/120),6p(1d6+3) Bonus Mv 30' to opponent Abil Darkvision 60' Intimidate +2 Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Aug 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 23:49
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:You're doing the Lord's work, here Jack. No superiority dice or action surge - so the situation as of every round after the first, essentially. I'm tinkering with my tables to include dice and will post when done. The Fighter DPR numbers end up looking like this: 
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2014 23:59
|
|
|
I really like the flavor thing 5e does where they start with two bolded traits and a paragraph or two for each to help you understand the thing in question. Even if it emphasizes how racist the old Tolkien mythos has always been.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2014 00:13
|
|
|
I can't wait for 100 skeletons to see an umberhulk so I can fail 100 saves and then 100D8 to determine what each - oh wait, they can all just avert their non-existent eyes CRISIS AVERTED. I'm surprised they didn't go with a Confusion status effect, since there's probably going to be more than one thing in the game that inflicts it. Actually no, I'm not surprised at all. Not one little bit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2014 00:21
|
|
|
moths posted:I can't wait for 100 skeletons to see an umberhulk so I can fail 100 saves and then 100D8 to determine what each - Well if I were DMing it, then the skeletons would just kind of sigh because seriously? They've been killed, then they've had to get up, pull a cart full of their colleagues, slay dragons, be an internet, be a computer, be told they're "silly", be told that they are collectively not as good as Brundo the Inept over there with his battleaxe when clearly they are actually superior, and now they're supposed to be confused by an (admittedly weird looking) underground crab? Even if it re-kills them, they're just going to have to get up again and keep firing their bows. They're not being asked to do rocket science here (except probably when they're being a computer).
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2014 00:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 21:36 |
|
|
Can't they also just outrange it with their bows
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2014 00:29
|
|