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Ardennes posted:actually head to the right so quickly and the population, including people in their 20s ... just kind of passively ignore it. 
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Aug 12, 2014 09:31
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Kaal posted:Well the I-205 bridge is one of the worst-rated in the nation (worse than several that have subsequently collapsed), so it will definitely be shut down one way or the other. The I-5 bridges aren't much better, and definitely will need replacement as well. And according to transit engineers, the problems are so severe that it is more cost-effective to replace the bridge entirely (i.e. How the CRC would have replaced the Interstate Bridge) than to attempt repairing them. We're going to die on that bridge together, Kaal. I'm so sorry. That death trap will claim us all.
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Aug 12, 2014 09:38
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Ardennes posted:the most liberal city in the state Dems fightin' words 'round here! illrepute posted:We're going to die on that bridge together, Kaal. I'm so sorry. That death trap will claim us all. Haha, perhaps
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Aug 12, 2014 19:26
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I would love it if Washington replaced the sales tax with an income tax. I doubt any state is going to change their tax structure significantly in my life though.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:56
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seiferguy posted:I would love it if Washington replaced the sales tax with an income tax. I doubt any state is going to change their tax structure significantly in my life though. Straight up replacement might have traction. Past income tax movements have been "income tax in addition to the sales tax" and people see that as a tax on top a tax, even if the specific proposal lowers sales tax proportionally.
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Aug 12, 2014 21:34
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Kaal posted:Well the I-205 bridge is one of the worst-rated in the nation (worse than several that have subsequently collapsed), so it will definitely be shut down one way or the other. The I-5 bridges aren't much better, and definitely will need replacement as well. And according to transit engineers, the problems are so severe that it is more cost-effective to replace the bridge entirely (i.e. How the CRC would have replaced the Interstate Bridge) than to attempt repairing them. CRC was poo poo city though. I still cannot loving believe that they blew millions of dollars designing a bridge that would restrict river traffic without so much as a phone call to the Coast Guard to ask "hey is it cool if we basically close the Columbia River to tall traffic?" I remember seeing a video a couple years ago that made an argument for basically adding a couple extra bridges so that the I-5 replacement didn't have to be everything to everyone, but I couldn't vouch for how feasible it actually was.
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Aug 12, 2014 23:20
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Best Friends posted:Straight up replacement might have traction. Past income tax movements have been "income tax in addition to the sales tax" and people see that as a tax on top a tax, even if the specific proposal lowers sales tax proportionally. Income tax plus sales tax equals more taxes. The low rate is just a trick, like a low introductory rate on a credit card.  
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Aug 13, 2014 00:19
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:CRC was poo poo city though. I still cannot loving believe that they blew millions of dollars designing a bridge that would restrict river traffic without so much as a phone call to the Coast Guard to ask "hey is it cool if we basically close the Columbia River to tall traffic?" Their mistake was that normally bridge height over river is measured at high tide, and they measured from low tide instead. Whoops. The "more bridges" movement is all east Clark County Republicans who want more car bridges and never ever want light rail anywhere near Vancouver.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:40
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Let's get some freight rail going along I-5, that'll gently caress with Clark County.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:42
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anthonypants posted:Let's get some freight rail going along I-5, that'll gently caress with Clark County. Let's run freight rail lines all over the metro and let people hop rides on passing boxcars to get around.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:49
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gohuskies posted:The "more bridges" movement is all east Clark County Republicans who want more car bridges and never ever want light rail anywhere near Vancouver. The fact that they called it the "Common Sense Alternative" should have been a giveaway. 
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Aug 13, 2014 00:50
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Chantilly Say posted:Let's run freight rail lines all over the metro and let people hop rides on passing boxcars to get around.
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Aug 13, 2014 01:04
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anthonypants posted:Unironically do this to get conservative opponents airing ads of murderous hobos running the rail. Could we actually ship some murderous hobos into Clark County?
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Aug 13, 2014 01:19
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seiferguy posted:I would love it if Washington replaced the sales tax with an income tax. I doubt any state is going to change their tax structure significantly in my life though. That's the "Agenda 21" politicians love to accuse each other of.
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Aug 13, 2014 01:22
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Chantilly Say posted:Let's run freight rail lines all over the metro and let people hop rides on passing boxcars to get around. I'm down with this as long as we don't have to split society into five equal parts based on lovely Myers-Briggs personality tests.
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Aug 13, 2014 01:48
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Thanatosian posted:Could we actually ship some murderous hobos into Clark County?
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Aug 13, 2014 02:00
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Ardennes posted:I don't see a reason why people with jobs in Oregon shouldn't pay Oregon taxes. If they didn't want to pay income taxes they could just work in Washington State. Sure but it's only fair that Oregon uses that tax money for things that those dirty tax
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Aug 13, 2014 02:38
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Kaal posted:I'm down with this as long as we don't have to split society into five equal parts based on lovely Myers-Briggs personality tests. idgi
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Aug 13, 2014 02:41
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sutgWjz10sM For all of you out there who have become old and out of touch, Divergent is/was a super popular teen book series, where the main character is expected to hop trains that never slow down because that's apparently what all the tough kids do. The trains simply circle the city and never stop, presumably the drivers have to parachute in. Kaal fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 02:45
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anthonypants posted:Unironically do this to get conservative opponents airing ads of murderous hobos running the rail. Just hire Ernest Borgnine to be the rail bull, then it's an even chance for both sides.
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Aug 13, 2014 02:53
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size1one posted:Sure but it's only fair that Oregon uses that tax money for things that those dirty tax Yeah but that doesn't mean they negotiate the terms, also the CRC was going to be a whole big bunch of change. Also, a rail-less bridge doesn't make sense either, adding rail would add a much needed alternative than the I-5 itself. Also to be fair, it is their choice to live in Washington. Housing and property taxes are cheaper there but they come at a price. I tried to watch 10 minutes of Divergent on a plane once, it made the Hunger Games look like Russian literature.
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Aug 13, 2014 03:03
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seiferguy posted:I would love it if Washington replaced the sales tax with an income tax. I doubt any state is going to change their tax structure significantly in my life though. I wonder if an income-tax group could get everyone's income data and mail out postcards telling everyone (who'd save money) how much they'd save:  poo poo's ridiculous
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Aug 13, 2014 03:47
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Ardennes posted:I tried to watch 10 minutes of Divergent on a plane once, it made the Hunger Games look like Russian literature. Oh totally agreed. I tried reading the first book and threw down my Kindle about half-way in. It's loving awful. But, you know, popular.
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Aug 13, 2014 04:01
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Kaal posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sutgWjz10sM I'm old and out of touch now, then.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:20
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Chantilly Say posted:I'm old and out of touch now, then. Don't feel bad, I am too. Pretty much anyone out of high school has an incurable case of the olds. I'm lucky that I get to hang out with enough kids that they can keep me updated on how old and out of touch I am at 28.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:21
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Ardennes posted:Yeah but that doesn't mean they negotiate the terms, also the CRC was going to be a whole big bunch of change. Also, a rail-less bridge doesn't make sense either, adding rail would add a much needed alternative than the I-5 itself. They're paying taxes on both sides of the river. Why wouldn't they get to negotiate? Also, I'd love a rail line to my doorstep. Also, when Vancouverites buy things in Portland it helps Oregon's economy.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:09
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gohuskies posted:The "more bridges" movement is all east Clark County Republicans who want more car bridges and never ever want light rail anywhere near Vancouver. Ahhhh, now it makes sense; the new car bridge goes up without a hitch, but then they dig their heels in and fight the bus/light-rail bridge to the death. I get it.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:17
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size1one posted:They're paying taxes on both sides of the river. Why wouldn't they get to negotiate? Also, I'd love a rail line to my doorstep. They are paying taxes on both sides of the river but they have a very different political viewpoint then the state/city they utilize and it isn't likely they will give in to their demands especially since it is a lot of money at stake. Also, Vancouverites mostly just go to Hayden Island to buy stuff from big boxes stores there, to be honest I don't know how much it actually benefits Oregon residents (we don't get sales taxes from those sales).
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Aug 13, 2014 21:45
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Aug 13, 2014 22:20
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Ardennes posted:They are paying taxes on both sides of the river but they have a very different political viewpoint then the state/city they utilize and it isn't likely they will give in to their demands especially since it is a lot of money at stake. You don't get to exclude someone from the process just because they have a different viewpoint. Even if it is a dumb viewpoint that will fail to fix the congestion and eventually leave us with zero bridges into Portland. We go eat at your restaurants and drink at your bars too. Either way, Portland still benefits more than Vancouver does. Even the low paid jobs it creates are better than nothing. Oregon has low corporate taxes but that's not Vancouver's fault. Us Vancouverites are the ones without representation there.
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Aug 13, 2014 22:48
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size1one posted:You don't get to exclude someone from the process just because they have a different viewpoint. Even if it is a dumb viewpoint that will fail to fix the congestion and eventually leave us with zero bridges into Portland. Well Vancouver is not in Oregon, so of course they aren't part of the Oregonian political process. If Vancouver wants bridges into Portland, convince Washington to pony up their share of the money to replace the decaying bridges. Oregon taxpayers aren't going to spend $4 billion just so Vancouverites can go eat on Mississippi Street. Public opinion in Vancouver has to shift to seeing these bridges as something worth fighting for, or they'll just end up being ordered closed by the Oregon DOT due to liability concerns. I think that you generally have the right attitude in regards to the need for mixed-use bridges, but I find that Oregonians are pretty insensitive to the idea that Vancouver is connected to Portland and therefore deserves a seat on our side of the table. We want to be good neighbors, but that only goes so far. Kaal fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 00:25
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Kaal posted:Well Vancouver is not in Oregon, so of course they aren't part of the Oregonian political process. If Vancouver wants bridges into Portland, convince Washington to pony up their share of the money to replace the decaying bridges. Oregon taxpayers aren't going to spend $4 billion just so Vancouverites can go eat on Mississippi Street. Public opinion in Vancouver has to shift to seeing these bridges as something worth fighting for, or they'll just end up being ordered closed by the Oregon DOT due to liability concerns. It's not our job to subsidize their loving tax dodge.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:48
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Thanatosian posted:If the state of Washington doesn't tell Vancouver ten ways it can go gently caress itself, we are even dumber than I thought. Well when you broke out the numbers on the CRC bridge, for instance, it made pretty good economic sense for the region as a whole. The Feds were paying for half of it, so it ended up being about $1 billion per state to replace the bridge and maintain the I-5 economic corridor. And that corridor definitely has wide-ranging economic benefits, since it ties Seattle industry together with Portland and deep into California - and even Mexico and Canada. The economic disruption alone from having to close down the bridge would cost each state hundreds of millions of dollars. Conversely, the economic boon from injecting federal dollars into the local economy from building the bridges would be extremely significant. As a concept it makes perfect sense. The problem, which is one of the main reasons the CRC failed, is that it isn't worth it to either state to build the bridge by itself. If the issue isn't looked at as a regional interest, then it falls apart.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:59
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Build it, then tax only Washington plates crossing it. I dunno, the politics of bridging a river that acts as a state border sound like a complete clusterfuck and I'm amazed there's one to begin with.
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Aug 14, 2014 01:41
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How many tons of freight traffic goes across the I-5 bridge in each direction?
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Aug 14, 2014 01:44
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Javid posted:Build it, then tax only Washington plates crossing it. I am by no means a scholar of constitutional law, but when someone first suggested to me the idea of making it a toll road for Washington plates, my first thought was that since it's an Interstate highway, it'd need SCOTUS review or something similarly outlandish to be approved. (My reasoning was "Something something commerce clause.")
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Aug 14, 2014 02:27
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Vavrek posted:I am by no means a scholar of constitutional law, but when someone first suggested to me the idea of making it a toll road for Washington plates, my first thought was that since it's an Interstate highway, it'd need SCOTUS review or something similarly outlandish to be approved. (My reasoning was "Something something commerce clause.") The White House is willing to let states toll interstate highways, though last I heard the bill is caught up in the political circus that is Congress, mainly the House of Reps, and the fight over funding the Highway Trust Fund since the gas tax isnt enough to cover it anymore.
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Aug 14, 2014 02:54
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anthonypants posted:How many tons of freight traffic goes across the I-5 bridge in each direction? The Oregon DOT prepared an estimate in 2003 that suggests something like 30 billion tons of freight per year, or about $40 billion worth. And something like 140,000 cars cross the bridges every weekday. Closing down bridges is expensive too - when the Skagit Bridge collapsed near Seattle it cost about $10 million/day in lost regional productivity, and about $500,000/day in lost taxes to Washington. Closing the Interstate Bridge would be only more serious, since it's significantly larger and much more central. Freight-intensive industry accounts for something like 30% of the combined Washington/Oregon economies. All in all, it would be pretty disastrous to the regional economy if the two states can't find a way to work together to build workable replacements. Even if the bridges magically stay standing and aren't closed, civil engineers estimate that by 2030 the limitations of the existing bridges will cause area congestion for 15 hours per day. At that point, you'd definitely see a shift in traffic patterns - with trucks detouring through the Dalles and crossing at Biggs or Umatilla, and ending up near Spokane rather than Seattle. Some southern trucks might try going up through Bend on Hwy97 and avoiding Portland entirely, but the mountains would probably deter all but the lightest of loads. It'd be a mess for sure though. http://www.oregonlive.com/money/index.ssf/2013/05/washington_bridge_collapse_will_impact_economy_but_coming_days_will_define_toll.html http://www.columbiarivercrossing.org/ProjectInformation/Problem.aspx http://www.camsys.com/pubs/economic_effects_i_5.pdf Kaal fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 04:36
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Anyway the proposed toll solution would just toll southbound traffic which would be almost entirely Washington residents anyway. As far as giving Washington residents influence in our political process, they live in Washington and vote for Washington politicians, they don't get to double dip their influence. Oregon has pretty low corporate taxes but income taxes balance a lot of that out. Also, yeah Washington residents do get some exemptions I believe for Oregon taxes but I haven't looked at it in detail. Anyway, the bridge itself was already a compromise position so unless Oregon just pays for their portion without question, it isn't going to work.
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Aug 14, 2014 04:42
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The mountains on 97 are crossed by heavy haul trucks daily. If Portland gets THAT bad, the climbing will easily become the lesser evil. There's a big wal-mart facility out there anyway; for those guys it won't even be a change.
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Aug 14, 2014 05:58
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