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Guavanaut posted:Plat is UKMT's 42" flatscreen TVs That explains why we've all got it, then.
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Aug 16, 2014 10:14
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Guavanaut posted:Plat is UKMT's 42" flatscreen TVs I don't even own a 
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Aug 16, 2014 10:24
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Encona is the pro choice for good hot sauces. Can pretty much get it anywhere and it is delicious.
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Aug 16, 2014 10:35
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Labour posted:You can’t be pro-jobs without being pro-job creators. Find out why Labour means business – http://labour.tw/1ydlXK8
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Aug 16, 2014 11:35
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First Saturday of the prem season and my best mate is flaking on the pub because of car trouble. I sympathise but the man has his priorities wrong for today
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Aug 16, 2014 11:39
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Ddraig posted:Encona is the pro choice for good hot sauces. Can pretty much get it anywhere and it is delicious. They're not really that hot and tend to have that "mass produced sugaryness" about them. 
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Aug 16, 2014 11:58
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Oh gently caress off Milliband. Is this it? Are we turning into America now?
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Aug 16, 2014 12:39
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Praseodymi posted:Oh gently caress off Milliband. Is this it? Are we turning into America now? Labour and Ed Milliband trying to appeal to the right wing is hilarious because all it seems to get is abuse from the leftwing saying "Oh for fucks sake Labour, the gently caress do you think you're doing?" and the right wing doing mixes of "We don't believe you, you hate profit and love red tape" and "gently caress off, Beaker."
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Aug 16, 2014 12:50
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Which is why you shouldn't be pro-jobs. AGT. http://wire.novaramedia.com/2014/06/the-ineptitude-of-chuka-umunna-5-signs-labour-are-scraping-the-barrel/
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Aug 16, 2014 12:55
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Jesus that video needs to come with a sick bag as standard. Don't watch it, just imagine a room full of people talking 'innovation in business' that's not slowly filling up with hydrogen cyanide.
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Aug 16, 2014 12:58
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Why isn't there a true left party? It's not like we don't as a nation have a history of successful socialism, so why is it all we can get is posh fucks and posh fucks pretending to be lefties while sucking up to the original posh fucks.
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Aug 16, 2014 13:21
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Praseodymi posted:Why isn't there a true left party? It's not like we don't as a nation have a history of successful socialism, so why is it all we can get is posh fucks and posh fucks pretending to be lefties while sucking up to the original posh fucks. FPTP basically, although there is always the hilarious issue of left-wing unity. Today both parties are chasing the same swing voters in a few dozen seats which can deliver them a majority. A "true left" party would need to have extremely concentrated support in enough seats to give it enough MPs to form coalitions with Labour and pull the narrative to the left. A widely spread left wing party would simply split votes away from Labour, leading to the Tories winning.
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Aug 16, 2014 13:32
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Ddraig posted:Encona is the pro choice for good hot sauces. Can pretty much get it anywhere and it is delicious. The old Encona Hot Sauce factory was right behind the house I grew up in. My mum used to tell me not to play in the little bit of no-mans-land between our back garden and the factory - probably because it was full of broken glass and abandoned, rusting bottling machines - but with the admonition, "the hot sauce man will get you". She might have meant I would get a ticking off from some bloke who worked in the factory, but obviously I imagined an evil hot-sauce golem lurching around with all slimy spicy goo dripping from his outstretched grasping claws. We had an outside toilet and I used to hate using it, because the Hot Sauce Man would (naturally) ooze through the gap in the door and get me at my most vulnerable. Definitely an inspiration to poo poo quickly. The factory is gone now, replaced by small flats for millionaires. Bit of a shame really, there's almost no genuine industrial space left in inner London so very little of what we can consume is produced where we live. Also these days I love Encona and I am about to put some on my lunch.
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Aug 16, 2014 13:38
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General China posted:I've got an inherited cloth cap, and when I put it on my head the bourgeois should be scared. You sometimes wear a flat cap, live in a listed building and your presence can make the middle class nervous. Who'd have guessed you have so much in common with the Duke of Buccleuch?
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Aug 16, 2014 14:36
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Praseodymi posted:Why isn't there a true left party? It's not like we don't as a nation have a history of successful socialism, so why is it all we can get is posh fucks and posh fucks pretending to be lefties while sucking up to the original posh fucks. I'd argue that its because everyone has a different definition of what the true left should be. There are a lot of fractured groups on the left that seem to argue about the truest method of enacting socialism rather than all agreeing on and unifying under a common end result.
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Aug 16, 2014 14:57
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EmptyVessel posted:You sometimes wear a flat cap, live in a listed building and your presence can make the middle class nervous. Silver Vision posted:I'd argue that its because everyone has a different definition of what the true left should be. There are a lot of fractured groups on the left that seem to argue about the truest method of enacting socialism rather than all agreeing on and unifying under a common end result. Or is that just a quick route to getting a party full of awful shits? After all, the BNP label themselves as for the working class and against global capitalism, they just filter it through a thick layer of 'indigenous Britons only! [not-racist]'.
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Aug 16, 2014 16:52
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I'm pretty sure the BNP/NF/EDL actually go and break up strikes, so the 'for the working class' line is a completely hollow lie to get votes.
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Aug 16, 2014 16:59
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Historically there was the revolutionary left and the reformist left who did agree on those general points. The reformist left allied with those of a more general social liberal perspective and formed the Labour party with the total support of the trade union movement, giving them access to cash and votes. The revolutionary left was happy to hang out with this electoral power to support their campaigns while arguing for more radical solutions but the reformist socialist elements have always been on the outer edges of the Labour party and so it's been moving rightwards for a very long time. Now there's no reformist nor socialist elements to it but it's still got a lock on trade union support (for now) meaning alternative left parties have had to come from the revolutionary left (who at best are uneasy about actually wanting to have parliamentary power, particularly if it's only to maintain a capitalist state with a welfare system) and have struggled to make even the slightest impact with their meagre efforts (ever heard of TUSC?). The fact that you're wondering about this rather than asking 'How is Left Unity doing?' means they aren't doing great either.
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Aug 16, 2014 17:49
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Guavanaut posted:There is, and I think we all know that the left will eat itself over the fine details, but there is at least a common directional element of "leaving the most vulnerable to die in the streets while pandering to 'job creators' is loving intolerable", right? There's nobody that considers themselves on the left that disagrees with those basic common elements, so why not a party that just ideologically focuses on the larger issues like that (like Labour was supposed to be before they turned into poo poo One Nation tories)? We're probably coming from different positions on the left and different levels of cynicism but I think that the common elements of creating a fairer society are still in the Labour Party, repealing the bed room tax, banning zero hour contracts, reintroducing the top 50p tax rate ect. I'm not sure how much I'd trust the job creators video to give a true account of Labour's business policy but the focus seemed to be on staying in Europe and investment in skills and education that these businesses are experiencing gaps in. Honestly I'd feel more comfortable if the Labour party wasn't so cosy with businesses, but let's face it the Labour Party won't be re-elected on a platform of hard left politics and the longer they're in opposition the more time the Tories have got to poo poo up the country. There are areas of the Labour Party that are worrying, the immigration pandering, Miliband's attempts to cosy up to Murdoch and er, Miliband in general really... but if the choice is between a more centrist Labour Party, an unorganised unelectable left or 5 more years of the Tories it seems to me a pretty clear choice.
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Aug 16, 2014 19:45
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namesake posted:The fact that you're wondering about this rather than asking 'How is Left Unity doing?' means they aren't doing great either. From having been subscribed to Left Unity's Facebook page, what I can tell you is that they need a better social media manager, one that doesn't post conspiracy theories and 'SHARE IF U AGREE' bullshit.
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Aug 16, 2014 20:25
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Silver Vision posted:We're probably coming from different positions on the left and different levels of cynicism but I think that the common elements of creating a fairer society are still in the Labour Party, repealing the bed room tax, banning zero hour contracts, reintroducing the top 50p tax rate ect. Those aren't exactly the common elements, more like the bare minimum you'd expect, and that's what people are worried about - that they're just going to sand the rough edges off the neoliberal status quo. Instead of fighting what the Tories are doing they're following along and trying to pick up some of the mess, so either way you're supporting a rightward march. I get the impression Miliband's trying to court more leftist voters with some of his statements and policies, but it's all so vague and 'let's hope he secretly intends to do X' that it comes off as more like trying to seem promising to everyone at once, rather than pragmatically playing the game so he can unleash the roboLenins on election night
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Aug 16, 2014 23:09
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The reason there is no left wing party is because the media and political establishment is run in the interests of a wealthy minority and the people of the uk are disenfranchised and disillusioned
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Aug 16, 2014 23:10
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Labour have gone from a party of equality to a party of social justice, but I'd still take them over the Tories. Admittedly, the party of Alf Morris is long gone, but Labour passed a lot of positive legislation for vulnerable people whilst they were in power.
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Aug 16, 2014 23:59
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tdrules posted:Labour have gone from a party of equality to a party of social justice, but I'd still take them over the Tories. Historical legacy is meaningless if they're not upholding that legacy, you don't 'owe' a party votes because of things a group of different people did 5-50 years ago. Unfortunately a lot of the voting public disagrees. Also social justice has to mean more than agreeing with the Tories in substance but arguing over details. They'll call the Tories all kind of things but immediately cave if they're accused of being anti-business.
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Aug 17, 2014 00:20
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namesake posted:Historical legacy is meaningless if they're not upholding that legacy, you don't 'owe' a party votes because of things a group of different people did 5-50 years ago. Unfortunately a lot of the voting public disagrees. The Tories had to present themselves as something they were not to get elected, a green friendly tree logo, drug liberalisation suggestions, a friendly face etc. Labour are merely doing the same but more to the right. By all means, be skeptical of pre-election behaviour. It is almost always irrelevant to actual decision making once in power anyway. Although I do admit that following Tory lines on certain issues is a one way street to a hung parliament.
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Aug 17, 2014 00:28
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tdrules posted:The Tories had to present themselves as something they were not to get elected, a green friendly tree logo, drug liberalisation suggestions, a friendly face etc. Labour are merely doing the same but more to the right. Isn't this what people said about Blair's Labour, and it turned out to be wrong?
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Aug 17, 2014 01:04
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Its almost as "if the left were not so fractured, the status quo would change", as the status quo presently favors people with more money than most of us, I don't expect the change to happen without drastic measures.
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Aug 17, 2014 01:34
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baka kaba posted:Those aren't exactly the common elements, more like the bare minimum you'd expect, and that's what people are worried about - that they're just going to sand the rough edges off the neoliberal status quo. Instead of fighting what the Tories are doing they're following along and trying to pick up some of the mess, so either way you're supporting a rightward march. On the contrary, I'd consider removing regressive taxation, government intervention to protect consumers in privatised markets, and increasing the tax rate on the highest earners, to be common elements of left wing politics. I'll admit that whether you or I think Labour are going far enough is a different matter however. Neoliberalism as the status quo does suck but unfortunately is pretty popular with the public and (obviously) the media. You could argue that Labour should fall on its sword and go into the 2015 GE with massive spending and welfare plans but they would be torn apart and give the Tories the keys to 5 more years of poo poo. What I hope the Labour plan is, to get into power and demonstrate through moderate reforms that public spending and welfare programs lead to a more productive, more equal society and don't just disappear into thin air. I'll admit I do find it worrying that I have to hope my country's main centre-left party actually acts like a centre-left party... v Edit: Fair enough, I'd like to see these big spending plans too but personally I don't have as much faith in the voting public or the media to not turn it into "TAX AND SPEND LOONY LEFT SET TO DOOM UK" Silver Vision fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Aug 17, 2014 |
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Aug 17, 2014 01:45
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Silver Vision posted:You could argue that Labour should fall on its sword and go into the 2015 GE with massive spending and welfare plans but they would be torn apart and give the Tories the keys to 5 more years of poo poo. But that would require them kicking the milquetoast pro business gently caress Milliband and his ilk the gently caress out and growing a spine. GeeCee fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Aug 17, 2014 |
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Aug 17, 2014 02:13
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^^^ I honestly get the feeling Miliband has no idea what to do. His heart never seems like it's in any of it, like he's a politician built by committee. That doesn't mean he's about to flip out and go full socialist like he's always wanted, but at the very least he doesn't seem committed to any of the poo poo he does. Unlike a lot of the shadow cabinet, who seem real comfortable being Tory-litetdrules posted:The Tories had to present themselves as something they were not to get elected, a green friendly tree logo, drug liberalisation suggestions, a friendly face etc. Labour are merely doing the same but more to the right. How much of that was a factor in their success though? How many people who actually care about those things (issues especially) thought 'hey yeah these guys seem all right'. Don't forget they didn't even manage to secure a majority on their own, if anything it seems like it was Cleggmania wot won it Silver Vision posted:On the contrary, I'd consider removing regressive taxation, government intervention to protect consumers in privatised markets, and increasing the tax rate on the highest earners, to be common elements of left wing politics. I'll admit that whether you or I think Labour are going far enough is a different matter however. Those are very general terms though, but you're talking about very specific, narrow, isolated policies. Is rolling back the bedroom tax a good thing? Hell yes of course it is. But it doesn't represent a drive to make taxation more progressive, it's merely undoing one change that the Tories made. Same goes for the 50p rate. I'd argue that left wing politics covers these morsels as part of a broader sweep in the other direction, involving the bigger concepts you mentioned in their entirety, and that focus is what makes a party left wing. If we're happy being thrown a few bones, then you could easily call the Tories a left-wing party too, since they've done a few non-poo poo things here and there Is 'redwashing' a term? Feels like it should be Silver Vision posted:Neoliberalism as the status quo does suck but unfortunately is pretty popular with the public and (obviously) the media. You could argue that Labour should fall on its sword and go into the 2015 GE with massive spending and welfare plans but they would be torn apart and give the Tories the keys to 5 more years of poo poo. Yeahhhh that's what I meant, everyone's crossing their fingers and hoping it will all work out if you vote Labour. I mean it's a poo poo situation, it's by design, you're not supposed to have a choice and the power to influence things. When the Tories are allowed to set the narrative, it doesn't matter if you gently demonstrate to people that hey guys... like, maybe things will be ok if we do some welfare spending  ... the Tories are loving liars, their policies are built on lies, their evisceration of the welfare state is justified and shrouded by lies, and the media passes it all along. If there's no actual fighting, no challenge to any of it, nothing to at least put the Tories on the back foot, there'll only be one eventual outcome.And the sad thing is, there's an obvious leftist sentiment in the public - look at all the strikes that have been taking place, based on anti-austerity narratives, and the existence of public support for them. A large amount of people want this kind of action, but their natural and (especially with unions) political home is with Labour, and Labour doesn't represent them. It's like they want to have a completely different conversation baka kaba fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Aug 17, 2014 |
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Aug 17, 2014 03:18
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In short, Labour can only see through the Overton window as it currently stands and neither imagine nor recall that anything outside it exists.
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Aug 17, 2014 06:31
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Silver Vision posted:What I hope the Labour plan is, to get into power and demonstrate through moderate reforms that public spending and welfare programs lead to a more productive, more equal society and don't just disappear into thin air. Isn't this pretty much what happened under Blair? Yet all I saw at the time was that Labour were ruining the country, and are lives are horrible, despite the economic boom, increased living standards across the board, and reduced crime. And I still see it. People out there actually think the coalition/Tories are a better government than Blair's was. Labour could arrange free daily blow jobs for all and they'd still get slated in the press.
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Aug 17, 2014 10:02
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Silver Vision posted:Neoliberalism as the status quo does suck but unfortunately is pretty popular with the public and (obviously) the media. You could argue that Labour should fall on its sword and go into the 2015 GE with massive spending and welfare plans but they would be torn apart and give the Tories the keys to 5 more years of poo poo. Is it really that popular with the public though? For a start, obviously, most people don't even know what neoliberalism is, but the signature policy (privatisation of everything) and it's consequences are wildly unpopular. In fact if you take the things that most people complain about (high energy and transport prices, NHS going down the tube, ridiculous cost of living generally) you can draw a direct causative line from it to them. The problem is nobody - particularly not Labour - are drawing that comparison directly. It's all about papering over the cracks and debating how much we should be doing x or y, never "we should not do this, here's a much better way of doing things".
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Aug 17, 2014 10:29
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I think we might get one big promise from labour in the run up to the election, there's a few leftish things they could do that have massive across the board support relating to energy, transport, the nhs etc for the love of god bring back british rail That would be the smart political thing to do I think, offer a small number of popular policies the tories will oppose and try to avoid areas like immigration and spending where there is less popular consensus Also Cameron is talking about the islamic state being a threat to britain so get ready for some serious islamophobia
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Aug 17, 2014 10:36
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So people who rent from housing associations should be shouldering any difficulties as the transfer on to universal credit happens, I dont even know anymore http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/16/housing-benefit-claimants-rent-universal-credit
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Aug 17, 2014 10:39
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StoneOfShame posted:So people who rent from housing associations should be shouldering any difficulties as the transfer on to universal credit happens, I dont even know anymore http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/16/housing-benefit-claimants-rent-universal-credit I'm starting to feel as if universal credit is the line that the civil service are making clear they won't cross, and thus will never happen. I can't quite believe that something of that price can simply have to be restarted due to incompetence and not sabotage.
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Aug 17, 2014 13:25
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Spangly A posted:I'm starting to feel as if universal credit is the line that the civil service are making clear they won't cross, and thus will never happen. Yeah, with things like this its almost like they are subtly begging people to strongly speak out against it so they can drop it. As much as the Tories want it from an ideological even they must see that its completely unworkable. On another note where have you been Spangly, I've not seen your brand of wonderful beligerence towards idiots in one of these threads for a while, well at leasts thats what it feels like, I could have just not been paying close enough attention.
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Aug 17, 2014 13:51
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Praseodymi posted:I'm pretty sure the BNP/NF/EDL actually go and break up strikes, so the 'for the working class' line is a completely hollow lie to get votes. The BNP are pretty much honest to god old school fascists. They don't really have a political position beyond scapegoating immigrants and putting forward a generally populist front. Somehow groups like this have always been able to somehow argue against capitalism, break strikes, hand out food to the homeless, beat up gay and foreign people, and help old ladies across the road all in the same day without seeing any sort of contradiction. It is just ultra aggressive anti-intellectual populism without any real unifying ideology. Fascists are baffling but kind of really interesting. Phoon posted:Also Cameron is talking about the islamic state being a threat to britain so get ready for some serious islamophobia I think saying they're a major threat to the UK is probably pretty overblown (do they even have any desire to rule the UK?). They are, however, loving terrifying and need to be stopped ASAP. Given how most people seem to be pretty content to ignore them, I'm happy to give a bit of leeway to anyone trying to raise concerns. I made the mistake of watching one of their uncut propoganda videos the other day. It involved truckloads of captured Iraqi army guys being executed en masse. The 'lucky' ones were dragged through pools of the blood of those who went before them, shot in the back of the head, and tossed in the river. The unlucky ones were held down and beheaded, and their skulls put on spikes in the town centre. This was all clearly very real. Local civilians don't seem to fare much better in many cases. Whether that's representative of usual practice or not, things are approaching Third Reich levels of brutality out there. I'm convinced that there are war crimes occuring on a scale well above that of any other conflict in recent history. This is absolutely the thing that does require intervention, and I'm pissed that the governments of the west have made that almost impossible by alienating the public with their loving oil wars. baka kaba posted:Those aren't exactly the common elements, more like the bare minimum you'd expect, and that's what people are worried about - that they're just going to sand the rough edges off the neoliberal status quo. Instead of fighting what the Tories are doing they're following along and trying to pick up some of the mess, so either way you're supporting a rightward march. The Red Labour group seem pretty happy to challenge the leadership of the party while remaining 'loyal'. I don't know how representative of the wider membership they are though. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Aug 17, 2014 |
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Aug 17, 2014 14:58
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Phoon posted:Also Cameron is talking about the islamic state being a threat to britain so get ready for some serious islamophobia Counter with Brevik, or the Crusades, or that one arguably Islamophobic quote from the last Narnia book. I can't see any reason to let people get away with "Muslims!  " when they actually mean "militants!  ". I know for certain that all the people I know that will speak the former don't have a single thing against Muslims, and don't actually believe ISIS are representative of Islam, they're just too lazy to think about the words coming out of their mouths to consider that maybe it's important to say what they mean instead of just parroting Fearless Leader and the press.
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Aug 17, 2014 15:08
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Phoon posted:Also Cameron is talking about the islamic state being a threat to britain so get ready for some serious islamophobia
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