The August Personage of Elminster Chat: $2000 Of Charity Donations + Really Bad Posts

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > The August Personage of Elminster Chat: $2000 Of Charity Donations + Really Bad Posts

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What is the best version of El? This poll is closed.
Elminster	20	6.45%
Elmara	20	6.45%
Entwine	13	4.19%
GURPS	99	31.94%
El Kabong	153	49.35%
Elves	5	1.61%
Total:	310 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Well, the epic destiny is actually reinforcing the always evil thing - it's specifically tied to the Realms narrative where the dark elves were a good and just people, but were seduced by Wendonai and Lolth, ultimately falling into corruption and becoming the drow. The rebirth is just becoming a dark elf again - but it doesn't disrupt the narrative of drow as innately evil (an actual, objective fact - see Tangled Webs and Windwalker, especially.)

# ? Aug 17, 2014 19:49

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:21

WordMercenary: Jan 14, 2013

The whole idea of innately evil species is just a horrible clusterfuck. What the hell was wrong with "These dudes are trying to kill us so we'll kill them right back." Why do nerds need a license to murder people on sight?

# ? Aug 17, 2014 19:56

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

WordMercenary posted:

The whole idea of innately evil species is just a horrible clusterfuck. What the hell was wrong with "These dudes are trying to kill us so we'll kill them right back." Why do nerds need a license to murder people on sight?

I don't think it's that so much as just D&D's mythic origins, where there are definite goods and evils and servants of that evil; D&D was probably introduced to expanding that out into entire races by Tolkien and then just kept going with it because people wanted to fight evil things like they had read about!

# ? Aug 17, 2014 19:58

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

Dehumanizing (de-elfinizing?) the enemy is sort of a natural human thing to do when you're talking about wiping out vast swaths of particular people on sight, so that aspect of it isn't really surprising or unusual or even restricted to D&D/elfgames.

I do think that it would probably be better to leave the "always evil" stuff for actual monsters and stuff that isn't obviously intelligent. Not out of any moral component necessarily but just because I find the whole concept of an entire species+culture that is always unquestionably Evil pretty boring and I want to make players work harder than that.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:05

Tulul: Oct 23, 2013; THAT SOUND WILL FOLLOW ME TO HELL.

The funny thing is that even Tolkien recognized that the whole Always CE thing was bad. He thought every orc being evil was incompatible with them having free will. IIRC he proposed a couple of fixes in his letters (like them all being some sort of golem), but he never wrote one into anything.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:10

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Tulul posted:

The funny thing is that even Tolkien recognized that the whole Always CE thing was bad. He thought every orc being evil was incompatible with them having free will. IIRC he proposed a couple of fixes in his letters (like them all being some sort of golem), but he never wrote one into anything.

Part of this was connected to religion. He literally could not accept his own writings of orcs alongside his religious beliefs - the idea of an actual race being wholesale denied redemption was anathema.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:25

Mr. Maltose: Feb 16, 2011; The Guffless Girlverine

Obviously underground elves should have spots and poo poo because they're made of fungus and not plants. Also they should get fatter with age as the great sporing approaches.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:26

Mr. Maltose: Feb 16, 2011; The Guffless Girlverine

Epic Destiny: Re-enact An Arc Of Swampthing.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:28

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

Mr. Maltose posted:

Obviously underground elves should have spots and poo poo because they're made of fungus and not plants. Also they should get fatter with age as the great sporing approaches.

There's an Oglaf for that! :nws:

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:30

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

Since we're taking about alternate takes on lovely D&D races, I've decided that from now on orcs are basically Mandalorians from the Star Wars EU: they're not a race, they're a warrior quasi-religion/culture that accepts members of any race as long as they practice the Six Actions: know how to speak orcish; wear armour; know how to defend yourself, your family and your clan; raise your children as orcs; contribute to the welfare of the clan (in practice, by tithing a tenth of your income to the clan coffers); and rally to the Khan's banner when called upon.

The orcish homeland is far away so for most people "orcs" are itinerant religious warriors who hire themselves out as mercenaries or bodyguards to make their living and deliberately ignore the concept of race. The orcish homeland is actually a big, rich country with loads of different races all living normal lives while also practising the Six Actions (you need to know how to fight, not fight for a living).

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Aug 17, 2014

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:30

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Ed Greenwood's original underground elves for the Realms were albino and had fungus associations later repurposed as Ghaunadaur. So yes you can do that if you want!

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:30

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Mr. Maltose posted:

Obviously underground elves should have spots and poo poo because they're made of fungus and not plants. Also they should get fatter with age as the great sporing approaches.

This is literally what RPGnet admin Shannon Applecline? did when he was given the opportunity to invent underground elves for Glorantha. While all elves in glorantha are Man + Plant, dark elves are Man + Fungus.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:35

Mr. Maltose: Feb 16, 2011; The Guffless Girlverine

Reene posted:

There's an Oglaf for that!

Yeah my inspiration was half that half The Grey, where the ideological differences of Plant And Fungus are shown to be a matter of wildly different worldview as opposed to any malice on either party. Except a dinosaur plant but he was a jerk anyway.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:35

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Lemon Curdistan posted:

Since we're taking about alternate takes on lovely D&D races, I've decided that from now on orcs are basically Mandalorians from the Star Wars EU: they're not a race, they're a warrior quasi-religion/culture that accepts members of any race as long as they practice the Six Actions: know how to speak orcish; wear armour; know how to defend yourself, your family and your clan; raise your children as orcs; contribute to the welfare of the clan (in practice, by tithing a tenth of your income to the clan coffers); and rally to the Khan's banner when called upon.

The orcish homeland is far away so for most people "orcs" are itinerant religious warriors who hire themselves out as mercenaries or bodyguards to make their living and deliberately ignore the concept of race. The orcish homeland is actually a big, rich country with loads of different races all living normal lives while also practising the Six Actions (you need to know how to fight, not fight for a living).

this is really cool

# ? Aug 17, 2014 20:36

Forums Terrorist: Dec 8, 2011

Make Elves Jem'Hadar imo

# ? Aug 17, 2014 21:07

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

Forums Terrorist posted:

Make Elves Jem'Hadar imo

This is, no poo poo, the inspiration for halflings in my game.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 21:10

grassy gnoll: Aug 27, 2006; The pawsting business is tough work.

Only if we get Weyoun out of the deal too.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 21:10

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

The 13th Age Bestiary presents 5 different approaches to the Drow. There's a really nice one in there about them being the plasuibly-deniable agents who do the Elf Queen's dirty work.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 21:14

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

To jump back to audiobook versions of RPGs for a second:

OctaNe read by Henry Rollins

# ? Aug 17, 2014 21:16

Darksaber: Oct 18, 2001; Are you even trying?

D&D Next read by Don Imus and Fred Phelps' ghost

# ? Aug 17, 2014 21:27

PeterWeller: Apr 21, 2003; I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

Arivia posted:

My phone ate this post so I'm going to note again that there was not 1 but 2 Greyhawk campaign settings produced during 3.0, not including the Living Greyhawk rules. You could get all the Geoff to stuff your face with that you wanted.

Also the stunningly most 5e thing about them not printing a FR Campaign Setting is how incredibly myopic it is and how well that fits in with their whole style of things. Think about today's new D&D player, who reads about this COOL SETTING from everything - the core rulebooks, the starter set, even the adventures they're releasing. And then they look for more details and WotC's response is essentially "heh. you should know what to read already, noob." It's the most nerdy gatekeeping groggy thing ever - this is too cool to share with you.

I have a feeling they either misspoke and meant to say there is no CG in development yet or that they will quickly backtrack and say that's what they meant to say in the first place. There are a few good reasons to hold back on releasing a new FRCG. The Sundering hasn't wrapped up yet in adventures and novels. And the last one had a strong feeling of rushed shoddiness.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 21:28

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

Arivia posted:

Ed Greenwood's original underground elves for the Realms were albino and had fungus associations later repurposed as Ghaunadaur. So yes you can do that if you want!

Huh, I guess my old FR campaign used this as a base for our Drow, no idea. They were ghost white with bright red eyes for good 'oh gently caress what are those' fuel, instead of being spider obsessed they were fungus farmers and all (including some creepy rear end 'priests of fungus' who let that poo poo grow on their skin) and the whole 'surface vs underground' war thing was based on ancient civil wars that both sides blamed the other on instead of one being objectively evil or good.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 21:31

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Tatum Girlparts posted:

Huh, I guess my old FR campaign used this as a base for our Drow, no idea. They were ghost white with bright red eyes for good 'oh gently caress what are those' fuel, instead of being spider obsessed they were fungus farmers and all (including some creepy rear end 'priests of fungus' who let that poo poo grow on their skin) and the whole 'surface vs underground' war thing was based on ancient civil wars that both sides blamed the other on instead of one being objectively evil or good.

That's pretty much exactly the actual FR drow. I'm not sure where your DM got the pale white with red eyes from, but the priests of fungus are just priests of Ghaunadaur, there are some drow communities that don't follow Lolth, and all drow farm fungus pretty much.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 21:34

WordMercenary: Jan 14, 2013

I am registering my approval for fantasy settings that are thinly veiled rip offs of Deep Space Nine.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 22:11

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

WordMercenary posted:

I am registering my approval for fantasy settings that are thinly veiled rip offs of Deep Space Nine.

Unfortunately, the new 'all evil, all the time' race are the firesoul 'pah wraith' genasi.

But at least it ain't drowface.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 22:16

inklesspen: Oct 17, 2007; Here I am coming, with the good news of me, and you hate it. You can think only of the bell and how much I have it, and you are never the goose. I will run around with my bell as much as I want and you will make despair.; Buglord

Drowtalk:

Ewen Cluney posted:

The thing with drow, like a lot of D&D-isms, is that they're something Gygax & co. carelessly tossed into the game that has since become Sacred Writ, so that rather than Gygax's free-flowing fantasy gumbo, it's a bunch of cliches that have been run into the ground for 40 years. Its cliches are unbelievably ripe for mocking, subverting, or just plain improving.

With drow the bar is so low that basically anything that doesn't get nerds to cosplay in blackface would be a step up, but a couple of people have come up with some versions of drow that seem really neat. Quinn Murphy has been working on an alternate take on the drow where they're Lolth's sleeper agents in elven society, and thus necessarily look just like ordinary elves. A friend of mine meanwhile is working on a take on the drow where they're basically an elven version of Japanese gyaru, a subculture that is rejecting typical elf gender roles and asserting themselves in new ways.

(Emphasis mine.)

I want to know everything about this.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 22:18

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

inklesspen posted:

Drowtalk:

(Emphasis mine.)

I want to know everything about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EKTw50Uf8M

# ? Aug 17, 2014 22:38

Davin Valkri: Apr 8, 2011; Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!

Uh, this might be a bit better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyaru

# ? Aug 17, 2014 23:03

Ewen Cluney: May 8, 2012; Ask me about
Japanese elfgames!

inklesspen posted:

Drowtalk:

(Emphasis mine.)

I want to know everything about this.

Here's what he's posted about it so far:
http://goblinsociety.tumblr.com/post/94095332335/trying-to-fix-drow
http://goblinsociety.tumblr.com/post/94666832405/elves-in-alcina

And as a bonus, Ben Lehman's zany idea for dwarves:
http://binghsien.tumblr.com/post/94098388127/so-what-if-all-the-dwarves-we-see-out-in-the

# ? Aug 17, 2014 23:14

18 Character Limit: Apr 6, 2007; Screw you, Abed;
I can fix this!; Nap Ghost

Ewen Cluney posted:

And as a bonus, Ben Lehman's zany idea for dwarves:
http://binghsien.tumblr.com/post/94098388127/so-what-if-all-the-dwarves-we-see-out-in-the

This completely explains Dwarf Fortress.

# ? Aug 17, 2014 23:39

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

I wrote up this alternate orc idea a while ago, with a little inspirational help from Ben Baugh. Enjoy my purple prose!

quote:

In the beginning, as on many other worlds, the gods chose where to place their children as the world was being formed.

And as on many other worlds, the gods chose the most advantageous lands they could. The god of humans selected the plains, the god of elves chose the forests, the god of dwarves chose the mountains, and so on. It went like it had thousands of times in thousands of realities.

In this world, the god of orcs chose the swamplands.

The gods of the other races laughed. After all, they were all able to pick lands that were advantageous to their races. But swamps? What good can come of swamps? You can't grow crops, build cities in such land.

"What a fool," they laughed. "What an idiot."

The god of orcs glared in anger and hatred. She told herself she had no choice, that the other gods had taken all the good territory before she was able to choose. She told herself that the other gods had tricked her, as she felt her face redden and her blood boil.

On a thousand different world, this scene played out with only minor changes. In a thousand different worlds, the god of orcs succumbed to his or her rage, and what followed was centuries of war and death as the orcs gave in to their god's hate and sought revenge.

This world was different. On this world, the god of orcs seethed...then stopped. And thought.

"So, they think me an idiot, do they?" she thought. "Because I chose a land where my orcs could thrive, for they alone can resist the dangers of the swamps? Because I did what I thought best for my people to make them strong? They thing I am weak in the mind because I am strong in the body."

"I shall prove them wrong. I will show them the strength of my people. All the strengths of my people."

As the gods placed their races into the world, the god of orcs spoke to her subjects. "The other races will see you as mindless fools. They think we are stupid because we are strong. But they do not realize that there are other kinds of strength. Not just strength of body, though that is important. There is strength of mind. Strength of will. Strength of character, of purpose, of worth."

"You must cultivate all these strengths, my children. I have placed you in a difficult land, to be sure, and I am placing you under a difficult expectation. But I do it because I know you can rise above and become more than you are. Do not give into rage. Do not seek revenge for the slights of other gods. What you must seek is to become better. Prove your worth. Your enemies are not the other races, they are ignorance and stagnation."

"Learn. Advance. Adapt. Make this world better. That is true strength, and that is the measure of Worth."

The orcs took her words to heart. On a thousand other worlds, orcs degenerated into bloodthirsty hordes seeking nothing but death and destruction. On this one, though, it was different. The orcs, isolated as they were, learned to be self-sufficient in a inhospitable land.

This drive to improve, alongside an inborn lack of talent for magic, forced the orcs to look elsewhere for ways to improve their race. Without easy access to magic, they were forced to look at more practical solutions to problems. Orcs saw the lack of an "easy solution" as another challenge to overcome, and this drive caused societal advancement to occur at a much faster pace, and also lead to a faster technological evolution.

Orcs are, now, the most technologically advanced race in the world. They exist in what we would term as a very early Renaissance technological level. It is the orcs who developed the lens, allowing for telescopes and eyeglasses. It is the orcs who created gas lighting, and it was the orcs who pioneered alchemy and early medical research. The orcs' most recent invention is the printing press, but not even the orcs can guess at the impact this will have on their world. The combustion engine and gunpowder cannot be far behind.

The orcs have advanced the theory of evolution, as well. It is believed by orcish scholars and philosophers that, because orcs are the shorted-lived of all the races (just after humans, but not by much), this is the main reason they are so far advanced compared to the other races. Elves and dwarves, especially, are "stagnant" because they do not need to think in the short term. They are complacent, say the orcs, and might in fact be evolutionary dead ends due to such a reliance on the "lazy solution" of magic.

The elves and dwarves, of course, disagree with this theory. To date, however, they have not done much to refute it. While the dwarves are still ahead of orcs in terms of mining technologies, the orcs are catching up quickly and are more than happy to overtake them.

And now, when the other races petition the orcs for the secrets of their technologies, or humble themselves before orcish craftsmen to convince them to travel to their cities and improve the standards of life therein...now, it is the god of orcs who laughs.

# ? Aug 18, 2014 00:21

DalaranJ: Apr 15, 2008; Yosuke will now die for you.

Ewen Cluney posted:

Here's what he's posted about it so far:
http://goblinsociety.tumblr.com/post/94095332335/trying-to-fix-drow
http://goblinsociety.tumblr.com/post/94666832405/elves-in-alcina

And as a bonus, Ben Lehman's zany idea for dwarves:
http://binghsien.tumblr.com/post/94098388127/so-what-if-all-the-dwarves-we-see-out-in-the

Traditionally, Elves are pretty xenophobic, if you took that a bit further than being an adventurer would be a form of rebellion against society. I quite like this interpretation of Drow.

# ? Aug 18, 2014 00:42

A Catastrophe: Jun 26, 2014

mllaneza posted:

The 13th Age Bestiary presents 5 different approaches to the Drow. There's a really nice one in there about them being the plasuibly-deniable agents who do the Elf Queen's dirty work.

I was just gonna say, one take on the drow could be white skinned elves who dress up in blackface to do night raids on human settlements. That way they are camouflaged in the shadows, disguised, and can blame an underdark boogeyman for their attacks.

A Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Aug 18, 2014

# ? Aug 18, 2014 02:05

inklesspen: Oct 17, 2007; Here I am coming, with the good news of me, and you hate it. You can think only of the bell and how much I have it, and you are never the goose. I will run around with my bell as much as I want and you will make despair.; Buglord

Evil Mastermind posted:

I wrote up this alternate orc idea a while ago, with a little inspirational help from Ben Baugh. Enjoy my purple prose!

Pretty good! I have notes for a campaign setting where humans are newcomers and Orcish is the common speech. The orcs follow a Roman (ish) model of forming trading colonies everywhere; why destroy when you can just conquer and why conquer when you can get the same benefits by simply dominating travel and trade?

# ? Aug 18, 2014 02:10

Mormon Star Wars: Aug 13, 2005; It's a minotaur race...

Sorry, noted 4e MMO Everquest Next solves the drow problem in the best way: They are elves who are dragonpeople. Deal with it.

# ? Aug 18, 2014 02:10

RocknRollaAyatollah: Nov 26, 2008; Lipstick Apathy

I think Shadowrun should get the award for weirdest Drow, which are the Night Ones. They're an elf variant that's covered in a thin layer of hair, range in color from black to orange, and have a sun allergy.

# ? Aug 18, 2014 02:21

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

Lemon Curdistan posted:

This is still "evil black elves" and therefore doesn't fix any of the problems with drow. All you've done is invert it so it's no longer "good white folk fell from grace and became black" and is instead "black people learned better than their savage ways and became civilised white folk," which is somehow even more racist.

If you want drow/Lloth, consider listening to Quinn Murphy instead: https://storify.com/overclicked/stereotypes-in-fantasy-races

That's fair; it was kind of off-the-cuff. The idea was that they're oppressed, not evil, which is why I specified that various demons rule their homeland. North Korea was more of an inspiration than anything. Making the blue coloration a consequence of their native diet meant it's both a visual indication of their recent past and something that can change. If I were to expand on it, I would've said that surface dwellers claim to possess the original, "uncorrupted" versions of historical rituals and traditions from underground.

And that they change from blue to green (not black to white), or various other pigmentations based on what they eat and what the ambient magic is like. This is a risky one: a major strength of fantasy is making metaphors literal, and this captures the idea of the place someone lives figuratively coloring their perception and representing it as literally coloring their bodies; but skin color is already a contentious and overloaded symbol in reality, so perhaps it's just too risky an element to preserve when attempting the already possibly futile task of rehabilitating a discredited idea.

# ? Aug 18, 2014 03:11

Ettin: Oct 2, 2010

The best drow are Night Elves.

# ? Aug 18, 2014 03:12

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

new idea: elves of any flavor don't exist, and we come up more interesting fantasy species than longlived pointy-ear humans

# ? Aug 18, 2014 03:14

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:21

long-ass nips Diane: Dec 13, 2010; Breathe.

Elves are cool, just say they come in a variety of skin tones like literally everything else that exists

# ? Aug 18, 2014 03:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > The August Personage of Elminster Chat: $2000 Of Charity Donations + Really Bad Posts

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