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I'm just saying it's a plot heavy game and all the female character are apparently reprehensible, seems like that would make it hard to enjoy.
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Aug 17, 2014 21:28
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This story does not portray a futuristic egalitarian utopia; therefore, this story is bad.Senjuro posted:The thing with the heels is that they're there solely to add sexiness at the cost of practicality. Foltest's impractical costume projects power and wealth. Between Ciri's cleavage, corset and heels, what does her costume project? I looked really hard for cleavage (trust me) but I couldn't find any. Could you point it out to me?
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Aug 17, 2014 21:42
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The Sharmat posted:I'm just saying it's a plot heavy game and all the female character are apparently reprehensible, seems like that would make it hard to enjoy. The good still outweighs the bad, massively. I'm pre-ordering The Witcher 3 and I would even pre-order Cyberpunk 2077 if I could. CDP is good at what they do but it doesn't mean they're perfect or that I can't criticize aspects of the game while enjoying the whole. at the date posted:I looked really hard for cleavage (trust me) but I couldn't find any. Could you point it out to me?  Perhaps boob window is a better term?
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Aug 17, 2014 21:47
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There's no visible boob in that boob window. Wait, I mean-God I can see her sternum. Her internalized misogyny has clearly prevented her from putting on a burka like a real woman would wear.
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Aug 17, 2014 21:49
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Personally speaking I've only played Witcher 2, and I played it through twice because the combat is a lot of fun when you get the hang of it and I really like the plot in general- it's a big quagmire of conflicting and secret schemes and motivations which I'm a fan of compared to something like Mass Effect where basically everything is entirely straightforward and upfront. I don't even mind the Lodge having a big plot to take over the northern kingdoms, because from interacting with them they'd probably do a better job than the actual kings. The visual design of basically every female character is just really jarring and takes me out of the game, and I was kind of hoping W3 would make some changes in that area.
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Aug 17, 2014 21:50
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Also the sorceresses are crazy amazingly beautiful because of magical manipulation and use their looks to their advantage. They're going to look crazy sexy because it's a sign of their power/wealth. Sorcerers are less into the vanity and more into pure power, though there are a few in the novels that are just as vain with their appearances. As far as Ciri, for a good long while she was a member of a troop of thieves who were known for wearing the very best clothing. They all came from nothing and wanted the very best, so they thieved and got the very best. I really hate how tropes are deemed bad or unusable sometimes. So, someone is a damsel in distress. Well that's lovely writing and misogynistic, etc. Well what if that's what's needed in the narrative? A character is a woman, so they can never be taken captive? To do stark generalizations of tropes, you fail to look at the narrative situation and just see the story as either bad or good due to the parts its made out of. Basically, don't generalize and take each case as their own. In this instance, I don't really know. Triss is a powerful sorceress with some hangups (magical allergies) who probably really doesn't need saving. But at the same time, she can be a bit naive and trusting, leading her into some bad situations. And being "packaged" into a statue kinda renders one impossible to act. That's not a game created thing, it happens in the novels as well.
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Aug 17, 2014 21:57
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Lava Lamp Goddess posted:
I don't disagree. It's just that it's kinda lazy when half of your female ensemble are manipulative witches and the other half are damsels in distress. Saskia and Ves are built up as strong, powerful personalities only to be knocked down and become victims for dramatic effect. I'm not saying female characters should not be presented as victims, ever, but if they do they should have something more going on about them to justify that portrayal. This is why I think Triss is a decent character regardless of her victim status in the plot. At the beginning and especially through the course of the first game, you are not entirely sure of her intentions. You only know that she's supposedly a big deal in Temerian politics and she has quite an interest on you but she also has some shady dealings with other sorceresses and she might be using you. And it is also acknowledged that Triss is not entirely honest when it comes your past, especially regarding Yennefer. But you eventually find out Triss is really in love with you and she risked her own neck to protect you. Her victim status is due to her own choices and that goes a long way to establish her agency in the story imo.
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Aug 17, 2014 22:33
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Lava Lamp Goddess posted:Also the sorceresses are crazy amazingly beautiful because of magical manipulation and use their looks to their advantage. They're going to look crazy sexy because it's a sign of their power/wealth. Sorcerers are less into the vanity and more into pure power, though there are a few in the novels that are just as vain with their appearances. Tropes are tropes because they're overused. If the ideas that are overused are sexist or misogynistic and whatnot then what does it say about our media and culture? Even if you don't care about any of that then at the very least they should be avoided as much as possible simply because they're lazy and unoriginal writing. Senjuro fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Aug 17, 2014 |
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Aug 17, 2014 22:34
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Senjuro posted:Tropes are tropes because they're overused. If the ideas that are overused are sexist or misogynistic and whatnot then what does it say about our media and culture? Even if you don't care about any of that then at the very least they should be avoided as much as possible simply because they're lazy and unoriginal writing. And I agree! They should be avoided simply because it is unoriginal. But, like with everything, they need to be looked at on a case by case basis. There are always exceptions to rules.
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Aug 17, 2014 22:45
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Lava Lamp Goddess posted:In this instance, I don't really know. Triss is a powerful sorceress with some hangups (magical allergies) who probably really doesn't need saving. But at the same time, she can be a bit naive and trusting, leading her into some bad situations. And being "packaged" into a statue kinda renders one impossible to act. That's not a game created thing, it happens in the novels as well. I think Triss was a better character in the first game. Despite having to rescue her in the prologue and at various points being unsure of whether you could trust her, she was a strong, important character that you looked to for guidance and advice. In the second game, the most important thing she does is get kidnapped at the end of Act 1. You could argue that this served to show how dangerous Letho was, but that doesn't really work very well becuase Triss isn't shown as being particularly capable in The Witcher 2. She doesn't even help fight the Kayran, Sila does. While I agree that Triss is a pretty good character overall, I think that if you look only at how she is depicted in The Witcher 2, some of that good characterization is lost. If you don't know what happened in the books (I don't) and you haven't played the first game, it might be pretty easy to assume that she is just a damsel in distress. Lava Lamp Goddess posted:And I agree! They should be avoided simply because it is unoriginal. But, like with everything, they need to be looked at on a case by case basis. There are always exceptions to rules. Yeah, but I don't think that any of the stuff (or much of it, anyway) in these games are those exceptions.
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Aug 17, 2014 23:07
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Shut up you goddamn nerds I want to talk about killing monsters.
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Aug 18, 2014 01:36
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2house2fly posted:Mass Effect gets all kinds of flak for sexism, but it also has latex-clad men in it, as well as some female characters who aren't designed to look titillating. Whereas in Witcher 2, here's a male and female mage: That's how sorcery works in the Witcher world. Blame Sapkowksi. I like it
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Aug 18, 2014 01:58
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I believe there is a much bigger issue the thread needs to address. Are there different beard styles?
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Aug 18, 2014 02:51
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BBJoey posted:Shut up you goddamn nerds I want to talk about killing monsters. I agree. If you guys want to argue semantics about misogyny and victims in stories take it to another forum. I was so excited to see that there were so many posts in this thread and all it was, was a couple of you arguing about clothing on video game characters and the roles of females characters in a videogame. If you have a problem with women being sexualized and being damsels in distress, I have to wonder if you ever see ads/commercials, TV shows or movies, haved played any other RPG game ever, or anything anywhere involving women or stories, because uh, I have news for you. Lava Lamp Goddess posted:I believe there is a much bigger issue the thread needs to address. I, for one, am excited that Geralt has a beard, but I am offended because I think a man being bearded is such an overused trope about rugged guys having beards. Its so unoriginal 
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Aug 18, 2014 06:28
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Keep in mind the stellar portrayal of male wizards is basically a morally bankrupt coward who is comically revealed to be an extremely effeminate homosexual.
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Aug 18, 2014 06:31
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Well, as long as sexism has completely pervaded every aspect of media entertainment I guess it's not a problem then.
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Aug 18, 2014 06:41
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2house2fly posted:Well, as long as sexism has completely pervaded every aspect of media entertainment I guess it's not a problem then. I'm not saying it isnt a problem, I am saying I dont think this is the best place to discuss it at length. I think it is an issue that needs dialogue in society, but discussing it on the internet with goons in a thread about a videogame isnt going to change a drat thing. Especially if the sorceresses in the game this thread is about were written as magically-more attractive who are powerful and wealthy. Yeah boob windows and women all wearing tight pants and heels is kinda silly, but what modern RPG game doesnt have that?
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Aug 18, 2014 06:50
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The next posts better be about men. These are manly man games. So is Geralt better with a ponytail or without it?
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Aug 18, 2014 07:15
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It probably wouldn't be so bad if you (in the general sense) just accepted that this game has problematic aspects but you still enjoy it. But like bending over backwards to defend some poo poo with really facile reasoning like "it's got story reasons" or "it's based on a lovely period/time/setting" is pretty mind boggling considering how this subject comes up all the loving time with regularity in just about every games thread ever. I for one hope Witcher 3 re-adds the card collection.
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Aug 18, 2014 07:23
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Bort Bortles posted:I'm not saying it isnt a problem, I am saying I dont think this is the best place to discuss it at length. I think it is an issue that needs dialogue in society, but discussing it on the internet with goons in a thread about a videogame isnt going to change a drat thing. Especially if the sorceresses in the game this thread is about were written as magically-more attractive who are powerful and wealthy. Yeah boob windows and women all wearing tight pants and heels is kinda silly, but what modern RPG game doesnt have that? The Witcher 2 is a great game with a deep and nuanced narrative for both it’s genre and medium. It was also an improvement on the original game in terms of narrative and pacing and arguably scope and characterisation of minor characters (Triss not withstanding.) It would be nice if when we see a shot from the third game someone could mention their disappointment that the unarguably sexist female character designs have persisted without people jumping out of the woodwork to mention that other games have problems to or it doesn’t count because the characters getting their tits out are powerful or what have you. If someone mentions that they’re finding the Witcher’s combat hard the responses are generally along the lines of “yep that bit/guy/tactic’s tough, try xyz.” Not “Well Dark Souls was tough too don’t just point the finger at CD Projekt Red!” Like it or not misogyny and how we deal with it is an important part of our culture and works that strive to be as emotionally impactful and narratively deep as the Witcher are going to be analysed and discussed based both on their in text explorations and how their development team approaches world and character design. The only reason, currently, that the Witcher 2 thread is not the best place to discuss the impact of gender on the narrative and design of the Witcher 2 and 3 is because whenever someone tries to have the discussion people get overly defensive and then suggest that if we’re not solving all sexism forever we shouldn’t even talk about the fact that it exists. Sorceresses using their powers to look more attractive, and dressing proactively, is fine in a vacuum, decent world building, and faithful to the source material. Every non-sorceress character being a damsel in distress or sex object for the PC is another matter entirely. A few female characters doing something other than witching, whoring, and needing saving would go a long way and I hope that with the expanded environment of the third game we see a women characters of narrative importance who are neither needing to saved by Geralt nor manipulating him. Edit: Witcher 1 chat: I liked the card with the milk maid on it. But I had to turn the game off for a bit after that elven lady he saves from gang rape rewards Geralt with sex. At least the second game didn't have anything quite that bad. Cirofren fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 07:28
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Lava Lamp Goddess posted:The next posts better be about men. These are manly man games. He likes keeping his hair in a ponytail. If you mess with his hair, you have problems. And if his hair gets untied in battle, well, poo poo just got real.
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Aug 18, 2014 08:08
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I like the heels and boob windows.
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Aug 18, 2014 09:24
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2house2fly posted:Mass Effect gets all kinds of flak for sexism, but it also has latex-clad men in it, as well as some female characters who aren't designed to look titillating. Whereas in Witcher 2, here's a male and female mage: Yeah if you want to blame someone for the sorcerer & sorceress looks it's Sapkowski, in the books there's a bit where he's describing them both at a party, half the sorceress' have their boobs out whereas the guys are all much more reserved. To the sorceress' in the books their looks are a tool like anything else, because they aren't natural - they were the girls who weren't going to be married off (Yennefer was a hunch back).
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Aug 18, 2014 10:13
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I just hope that they bring back Ciri's ice skates. Oh, or they could upgrade her to roller blades. Nilfgaaaariansssss come out and playyyayyyyyyyy.
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Aug 18, 2014 10:20
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Vilgefortz was young and very handsome, with imposing presence. Since magic users can shape their looks it may be that many males want to radiate aura of wisdom gathered by ages, while women prefer being seen as unnaturally beautiful. As saying goes "what's the difference between a sorceress and a witch? About 40 years"
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Aug 18, 2014 10:24
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Cirofren posted:The Witcher 2 is a great game with a deep and nuanced narrative for both it’s genre and medium. It was also an improvement on the original game in terms of narrative and pacing and arguably scope and characterisation of minor characters (Triss not withstanding.) I wish the forums had a like button. I've had this conversation with people before, and the biggest stumbling block seems to be that one side of the argument really doesn't seem to want to acknowledge problems at all, no matter what pernicious or nasty thing you show them, they always have a 'but' and a blatant disregard for context.
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Aug 18, 2014 11:23
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PureRok posted:I like the heels and boob windows. hosed up if true.
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Aug 18, 2014 11:34
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Cirofren posted:The Witcher 2 is a great game with a deep and nuanced narrative for both it’s genre and medium. It was also an improvement on the original game in terms of narrative and pacing and arguably scope and characterisation of minor characters (Triss not withstanding.) I have my opinions on misogyny and the tired storylines built into games, movies, and whatnot....but I do not go to the Games subforum on somethingawfuldotcom to argue with people about my opinion on said subjects. I do agree that it is kinda dumb that yes, pretty much every woman in the story ends up being a victim, a tool, or a sex object and would like to see that change, but I am not going to argue with anyone about it on the internet. Cirofren posted:Edit: Witcher 1 chat: I liked the card with the milk maid on it. But I had to turn the game off for a bit after that elven lady he saves from gang rape rewards Geralt with sex. At least the second game didn't have anything quite that bad.
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Aug 18, 2014 15:09
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Bort Bortles posted:Isnt there an elven chick in Vergen that wants to have sex with you for saving her from Loredo? (if you go Iorveth's path) There is indeed, though Loredo just tried to burn her alive, not sexually assault her. There is also another elf in Flotsam who the guards suspect of luring their colleagues into rebel ambushes with the promise of sex, and who they in turn want to punish on the spot in the predictable way. If you help her, she offers you sex as a reward, but instead leads you into a rebel ambush too if you're gullible enough to try and take her up on it.
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Aug 18, 2014 16:38
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I apologize for posting the character guide, I had forgotten how triggered goons are by heels.
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Aug 18, 2014 18:48
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I, for one, thought the conversation about sexism and themes and characters in The Witcher games was way more interesting than this conversation about whether or not we should be having the first conversation.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:03
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I think it's ridiculous that Geralt(who appears shirtless many times) and is considered to be a great fighter but has long white hair. Which is the opposite of helpful in a fight as it both makes it easier to spot him(due to white being a contrasting color) and represents a real danger because it can be grabbed in a fight. I can't believe that in this day and age the misandrists are still making it impossible to have a male lead in a videogame who doesn't have long sexy hair like a rockstar; even when it clearly doesn't fit the characters fighter prowess.
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Aug 18, 2014 22:28
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COOKIEMONSTER posted:I think it's ridiculous that Geralt(who appears shirtless many times) and is considered to be a great fighter but has long white hair. Which is the opposite of helpful in a fight as it both makes it easier to spot him(due to white being a contrasting color) and represents a real danger because it can be grabbed in a fight. I can't believe that in this day and age the misandrists are still making it impossible to have a male lead in a videogame who doesn't have long sexy hair like a rockstar; even when it clearly doesn't fit the characters fighter prowess. If you don't see the difference between what you wrote and what was discussed earlier then I can see how you earned your red text.
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Aug 18, 2014 23:10
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Senjuro posted:If you don't see the difference between what you wrote and what was discussed earlier then I can see how you earned your red text. Please try not to be offended by a joke on the somethingawful dot com games subforum.
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Aug 19, 2014 00:34
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I need masculinism because Fire Fox spellcheck doesn't recognize "misandry" as a word.
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Aug 19, 2014 00:47
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So I notice that the thread has grown by over 100 posts in the last day and I'm super excited that there's been some development regarding W3. Thanks a lot, fuckers. 
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Aug 19, 2014 00:48
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Iorveth says "Dhoine" in the new Witcher game.
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Aug 19, 2014 00:53
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Its ok to enjoy something but still feel like some aspects could be handled better! Be happy goons.
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Aug 19, 2014 06:58
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Well I hope that it turns out that Ciri has heels so that she can sword fight with her feet too. You know what you need to do CDPR 
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Aug 19, 2014 07:07
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Doktor! Turn off my mutagen inhibitors!  In thread news, I finally have the time to work on a new OP for the next megathread, which'll collect all of the media that's been released thus far for Witcher 3.
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Aug 19, 2014 07:42
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