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What is the best version of El? This poll is closed. |
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| Elminster |
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20 | 6.45% |
| Elmara |
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20 | 6.45% |
| Entwine |
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13 | 4.19% |
| GURPS |
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99 | 31.94% |
| El Kabong |
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153 | 49.35% |
| Elves |
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5 | 1.61% |
| Total: | 310 votes | ||
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Yeah, WOTC did a KOTOR sourcebook for the Saga edition, which also incorporated the pretty great KOTOR Dark Horse comics with Zayne Carrick and established that the canon protagonist for KOTOR II was a woman with handmaiden as a party member. (So, you know, a party configuration you couldn't actually have in the game.)
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Aug 18, 2014 12:52
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I'm not familiar at all with Shadowruns 4 or 5, but I seem to recall most elves being like everyone else, and the "smug hippy elf" commune nation being largely disliked in-fiction because they were stupid dicks.
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Aug 18, 2014 12:54
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Plague of Hats posted:I'm not familiar at all with Shadowruns 4 or 5, but I seem to recall most elves being like everyone else, and the "smug hippy elf" commune nation being largely disliked in-fiction because they were stupid dicks. Oh, no, they're not just stupid dicks. Tir Taingere (AKA Oregon) isn't just a Lord of the Rings LARP that got a little out of hand, it's also an oppressive apartheid state. Great villians! The downside is that in some of the earlier versions of the Tir, it was essentially impossible for Seattle-based runners to interact with it, because despite Portland being a massive trade hub, actually getting into or out of Portland with any kind of equipment was essentially impossible due to the Tir having implausibly good security, including spec-ops 'Ranger' teams on the border that would scoop up anyone trying to cross the border on foot, inject them with a memory-loss drug so you wouldn't even know why you lost, and dump you in the middle of the woods on the other side of the border. Later versions of the Tirs had them have a massive economic crash and they quietly reduced the Rangers to merely being a good spec ops team rather than a massive impossible-to-defeat GM Fiat bullshit team. Also, non-Elves could operate in the Tir now and get papers, even if they'd still get harassed for it. Early Shadowrun had a lot of problems with writing material that had a protective coating of anti-PC bullshitinite.
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Aug 18, 2014 13:20
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I would not call Bioware's writing "very good," considering they think slavishly adhering to the Campbellian monomyth is quality writing and have recycled the same "warrior, mage, three to four planets, end boss world" structure for nearly every game they've made since KotOR 1. Actually neither Mass Effect 2 nor Dragon Age 2 follow that format. Which is about the point the internet started getting a hate on for them. I love Baldur's Gate 2, but I wouldn't trade present Bioware for old Bioware for all the rose tinted glasses in China.
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Aug 18, 2014 13:40
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Mass Effect 2 is a swell sequel that dispenses with a lot of the redundant RPG crap that bogs down the original (like Diablo loot), makes an intentional choice to flip the script on the tranquil Trek 'verse of the original to show us the forgotten/lost victims of the existing order and the dark underbelly, and has both a pretty dope narrative structure and some pretty dope themes. It also made the combat a lot better for a few reasons, not the least of which is that it actually defined the different classes - I wonder how many people don't realize or remember that the Infiltrator's cloak, for example, a feature everyone in the world would assume the game's "Rogue" class would have and which formed the cornerstone of its playstyle in the sequels, didn't exist in ME1. Please don't lump it in with Dragon Age 2, which really is a lovely sequel and a pretty terrible game! I honestly don't think ME2 had much to do with public opinion turning against Bioware nearly as much as the DA2 fiasco, Mass Effect 3's lovely writing, and everything about the Old Republic MMO including the fact that it exists and KOTOR 3 doesn't. There are ME1 grognards who hated how the sequel was "dumbed down" because you no longer had to rifle through and organize a hundred suits of nearly identical armor, but I don't think they were a majority, and there are probably more of them on SA than the internet at large.
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Aug 18, 2014 13:52
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FewtureMD posted:Speaking of fantasy races, does anyone remember reading a thing from here about redone orcs? It basically described them as a constantly reincarnated race, birthed from a mysterious waterfall in the mountains. Since they have no concept of true death, they settle most of their conflicts violently. The realization that all the other races suffered true death was massively upsetting to the orcs. Huh, I actually wrote that. I'm surprised anyone remembered. I actually came up with the concept of that when playing Orcs Must Die, where the Orcs die in their droves while a) not really caring and b) being quite cheerful and talking about getting lunch afterwards. The idea of a species that would do that formed the idea of a literally immortal race who honestly held no grudges against anyone but would war endlessly. The vague plan for the campaign world was an Eberron style time setting, long after the standard medieval fantasy. The Orc Wars were a generation ago, and a lot of people died to let their tribes know that men and elves don't come back when we die. Humans in the same writeup had the twist that crowd mentality was a literal thing. Humans had a shared emotional gestalt when there were sufficient numbers in one place. One person's strong enough emotion could turn other humans toward or against you, stereotypes perpetuated throughout the psyche and large atrocities against human populations provoked thousands of people into reflexively forming a crusade of retribution. Once a species warred with humanity it became very hard to ever find peace.
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Aug 18, 2014 14:17
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Yes, your Orc write up was awesome, but I'm just massively in love with any positive spin on 'evil' races.
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Aug 18, 2014 14:20
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Dragon Age 2 is great, sorry.
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Aug 18, 2014 14:59
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Whats the best RPG ruleset for running a Cyberpunk style of game? Other than Shadowrun, I only know of a couple- the PbtA one thats floating around, I think there are a couple Savage World ones, Shadowrun, and ?
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Aug 18, 2014 15:26
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d20 Future.
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Aug 18, 2014 15:27
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Gravy Train Robber posted:Whats the best RPG ruleset for running a Cyberpunk style of game? Other than Shadowrun, I only know of a couple- the PbtA one thats floating around, I think there are a couple Savage World ones, Shadowrun, and ? Leverage.
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Aug 18, 2014 15:28
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Mors Rattus posted:Leverage. Definitely leverage, which is the Cortex+ Action system if you want to use the generic rules from the hacker's guide.
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Aug 18, 2014 15:32
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Aug 18, 2014 15:38
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Darwinism posted:Yeah, as much as we might want things to be fully fleshed out there's essentially no way they'll ever be aside from either token differences or no-really-they're-alien differences. This isn't really bad, it's just what is, because no one's really going to read what amounts to an anthropology textbook on a race that still won't encompass the same amount of diversity found in humanity. So for the sake of playability things sort of need to be framed in generalizations.
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Aug 18, 2014 15:43
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Gravy Train Robber posted:Whats the best RPG ruleset for running a Cyberpunk style of game? Other than Shadowrun, I only know of a couple- the PbtA one thats floating around, I think there are a couple Savage World ones, Shadowrun, and ? Technoir if you want hardboiled-ish cyberpunk in the vein of the Marid Audran or Takeshi Kovacs novels, where the protagonists go out and do stuff to advance the plot. Leverage if you want a more lighthearted game focused more around heists. Technoir is by far the best cyberpunk game out there.
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Aug 18, 2014 15:47
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Darwinism posted:Yeah, as much as we might want things to be fully fleshed out there's essentially no way they'll ever be aside from either token differences or no-really-they're-alien differences. This isn't really bad, it's just what is, because no one's really going to read what amounts to an anthropology textbook on a race that still won't encompass the same amount of diversity found in humanity. So for the sake of playability things sort of need to be framed in generalizations. Ahem.
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Aug 18, 2014 15:50
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Technoir if you want hardboiled-ish cyberpunk in the vein of the Marid Audran or Takeshi Kovacs novels, where the protagonists go out and do stuff to advance the plot. Leverage if you want a more lighthearted game focused more around heists. d20 Future, god! 
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Aug 18, 2014 15:51
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Oh, wait, sorry. GURPS.
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Aug 18, 2014 16:05
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Arivia posted:d20 Future, god! If you run it, I will apply  e: also the correct book is d20 Cyberscape.
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Aug 18, 2014 16:11
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I liked Mass Effect 1, really enjoyed Mass Effect 2, and didn't have a problem with 3. Even the ending, while being dumb and lazy, wasn't the war crime that some folks made it seem. 3 still did a good job tying up loose plots over the course of the game. I just like Mass Effect.
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Aug 18, 2014 16:22
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Doodmons posted:Huh, I actually wrote that. I'm surprised anyone remembered. I actually came up with the concept of that when playing Orcs Must Die, where the Orcs die in their droves while a) not really caring and b) being quite cheerful and talking about getting lunch afterwards. The idea of a species that would do that formed the idea of a literally immortal race who honestly held no grudges against anyone but would war endlessly. The vague plan for the campaign world was an Eberron style time setting, long after the standard medieval fantasy. The Orc Wars were a generation ago, and a lot of people died to let their tribes know that men and elves don't come back when we die. Oh man that stuff is great! Do you still have a link to that writeup? I want to preserve it for later use.
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Aug 18, 2014 16:30
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The Complete Book of Elves writeup in F&F is great, I will say that about the Complete books MadScientistWorking posted:You can do alien differences quite easily with a limited word count but you really can't be subtle. You have to establish some defining trait that makes them alien and then rely on people's imagination to pick up the slack. Yeah, I was over-exaggerating there, but most systems with aliens do take the lazy way out. Though things like Star Wars are hampered by the entirety of canon consisting of alien races that're generally not very alien at all. Also I thought DA2 was pretty drat fun and it would've been an amazing game if it'd had a decent amount of development time. You can see the rough outlines of them wanting to do things differently, but it was shoved out of the door before it was ready and so you have a horrible half-made mess that makes stock KotOR2 look polished and complete. But it's still better than the marathon of generic that was DA1.
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Aug 18, 2014 17:13
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Darwinism posted:The Complete Book of Elves writeup in F&F is great, I will say that about the Complete books Sweet jesus I never finished that, did I?
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Aug 18, 2014 17:17
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ProfessorCirno posted:Sweet jesus I never finished that, did I? Pretty sure that, at a certain point, everyone knows what the next post is gonna contain
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Aug 18, 2014 17:20
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I remember the Beholder and Illithid books for 2E as actually pretty good for that sort of thing, too, especially if you think cultures for other species should be alien and weird.
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Aug 18, 2014 17:23
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Ah, the Complete Book of Elves. The very first D&D book I ever read after the player's handbook. Even at 14 I could tell it was bullshit.
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Aug 18, 2014 17:26
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The Complete Bard, otoh, is the best non-setting 2E supplement. Pictures of guys in flouncy shirts, information about weird medieval instruments, and the only appealing content to ever use the kit system.
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Aug 18, 2014 17:28
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All I really remember from the Complete Books is there was an entire section of the Complete Book of Dwarves all about Dwarf Standup.
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Aug 18, 2014 17:34
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Darwinism posted:Yeah, I was over-exaggerating there, but most systems with aliens do take the lazy way out. Though things like Star Wars are hampered by the entirety of canon consisting of alien races that're generally not very alien at all.
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Aug 18, 2014 18:32
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Mr. Maltose posted:All I really remember from the Complete Books is there was an entire section of the Complete Book of Dwarves all about Dwarf Standup. I'm a sucker for any of the Complete books or anything like them because either they're legit good or they have something just dumb and funny in it.
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Aug 18, 2014 18:34
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Apparently everyone hates Dwarf Jokes because they take way too long, but if you gut it out they are bar none the best comedians of all. The term Punch-Paragraph was used. I also remember that the complete book of thieves had a bunch of cool tools you'd never have any use for but by god now you could shatter glass without making noise!
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Aug 18, 2014 18:43
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My first PC ever in any RPG was a thief and by God I found excuses to use everything in that drat book as much as possible. Everyone else is all 'Let's just kick in the door' and I'm trying to carefully remove panes of glass and oil hinges and put on camo because I don't have anything else, I'm a second edition thief. It was a ton of fun, somehow.
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Aug 18, 2014 18:48
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I can see a bunch of highly specific thieves' tools being vaguely useful in an OD&D "get the loot and get out while fighting as few monsters as possible" kind of campaign where they would essentially act in the same fashion as wizard spells, giving you the ability to simply declare things like "I can break glass without making noise" or "I make the hinges not squeak like the last three times goddamnit Bob." In AD&D2E I'm somewhat more doubtful.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:04
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Mr. Maltose posted:Apparently everyone hates Dwarf Jokes because they take way too long, but if you gut it out they are bar none the best comedians of all. The term Punch-Paragraph was used. See that just makes me wanna make a Dwarf bard specializing in that poo poo. And yea my group is juuuust in the right line of spergy to make use of all those obscure and mostly pointless tools so we always got at least SOME use out of those kinds of books, even if it was just Jimmy the Rogue going 'oooh neat, look at this tool, I want it' and using it like, once to silently bust into a house for really no good reason when we could have gone in way easier ways but hey gently caress you he bought that stupid tool.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:13
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Swagger Dagger posted:Oh, wait, sorry. If you're going to suggest GURPS, can't you put a little more effort into the suggestion then just saying GURPS? If someone wants to run Shadowrun in GURPS then use the Action! rules with the Dungeon Fantasy books. And then Ultratech and Magic where appropriate.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:18
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Action and Dungeon Fantasy are counteractive - DF is about making D&D-style dungeon crawls in GURPS, Action is about action/heist movies. Completely different genres. I will however agree that near-future cyberpunk stuff is where GURPS excels, and suggest Thaumatology instead of Magic because GURPS' builtin magic system is awful.
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Aug 18, 2014 19:26
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Doodmons posted:Huh, I actually wrote that. I'm surprised anyone remembered. I actually came up with the concept of that when playing Orcs Must Die, where the Orcs die in their droves while a) not really caring and b) being quite cheerful and talking about getting lunch afterwards. The idea of a species that would do that formed the idea of a literally immortal race who honestly held no grudges against anyone but would war endlessly. The vague plan for the campaign world was an Eberron style time setting, long after the standard medieval fantasy. The Orc Wars were a generation ago, and a lot of people died to let their tribes know that men and elves don't come back when we die. Oh yeah, I remember this stuff! Very cool
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Aug 18, 2014 19:58
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In lieu of our newest thread title: what fictional wizard would you most like to date?
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Aug 18, 2014 20:02
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Gandalf
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Aug 18, 2014 20:04
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 17:02 |
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Gandalf efb
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Aug 18, 2014 20:05
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