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regulargonzalez posted:If, as the theory reads, Ned is aware of this, it raises an enormous and unanswerable question: Why wouldn't Ned tell Catelyn? He wants to keep Jon's parentage a secret if he's a Targ because Robert hates Targs and so Ned can't risk anyone at all knowing. But if it's Arthur Dayne + Lyanna, there is literally no reason to keep it a secret from anyone, no reason to cause all kinds of tension and problems in his marriage. very true. Robert would maybe be cool with it since he never did anything to bother the Daynes. Catelyn would definitely be cool with it. Jon Snow (or Jon Sand, in this case) would probably be happier if he knew his real parentage was the star-crossed pairing of Lyanna and the greatest knight of his era rather than Ned and some anonymous woman. maaaaybe Ned could think that Arthur hooking up with Lyanna and more directly causing her death could make Robert mad enough to come after the Daynes, but that seems like a stretch. There would also not be any reason for Ned to drag Jon Sand back to Winterfell rather than doing the socially acceptable thing and leaving him with the Daynes, who are probably an upstanding enough bunch that he could trust them. I've also seen "Lyanna + Arthur = Jon, but Ned assumes R + L = J and Lyanna dies before she can correct him" but that just seems wildly pointless. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 06:21
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The reason it has to be R+L=J, as we've been over before, is that no other combination has interesting story implications.
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Aug 18, 2014 06:27
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It doesn't really matter anymore now anyway. Assuming Jon lives, here are Martin's options: 1) do R+L=J and just deal with everyone being all smug and saying they called it, or 2) do something different and just deal with everyone saying he changed his reveal because people guessed it, regardless of if he actually did.
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Aug 18, 2014 06:30
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one thing that has always confused me about various Jon parentage theories is: if Jon isn't Ned's son, why not claim him as Brandon's bastard rather than his own? Either with Ashara (who Brandon is suspected to have knocked up anyway) or with some anonymous woman, if the Daynes wouldn't cooperate. The timing might be off by a couple months, but this would grow increasingly less obvious as the Jon aged. People would more readily believe it of Brandon, a noted womanizer. It would attract even less attention to the child. It would give Ned ample excuse to raise Jon at Winterfell while being much better for Catelyn. There's always "maybe he just didn't think of it in time", but he had a months-long journey back to Winterfell before he needed to make any announcement, and that's a lot of time to think. Is it just too dishonorable a tale for Ned to saddle his dead brother with?
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Aug 18, 2014 06:48
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PupsOfWar posted:Is it just too dishonorable a tale for Ned to saddle his dead brother with? Yeah I reckon so. Ned was the one to make the promise, he was the one to bring the boy back, so in his mind it was his burden to bear. Considering how shameful he sees it, he probably would have viewed blaming Brandon as dragging his name through the dirt.
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Aug 18, 2014 07:11
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Catching up on the last few pages of this thread and holy poo poo, Rhaegar = Raydar is a hilariously dumb theory  Rhaegar died in the midst of a battle with hundreds of people around. Jaime had a discussion with him before he put his helmet on and rode off to the battle. And there's absolutely no reason to believe it was someone else glamoured as Rhaegar. There's exactly what, two people who are/get glamoured through the entire five books (Melisandre and Rattleshirt), and both times it's the same person responsible. One of those is revealed in literally the next relevant chapter, while Melisandre's ruby is pointed out pretty much every time she appears on the page. Rhaegar having rubies on his armour doesn't mean he's glamoured - the rubies all fall off when he dies, surely that would shatter the illusion? And besides, from memory most of the Lannisters' armour is described as being crusted with rubies as well - clearly this means Tywin is actually a glamoured Hodor.
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Aug 18, 2014 09:29
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Doltos posted:Cool thing about Patchface, he's actually a prophet for the Others. So is Aeron Greyjoy, he just doesn't know it. "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger" is about the Others 
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Aug 18, 2014 10:21
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Doesn't quite fit in with the drowned god thing
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Aug 18, 2014 12:23
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webmeister posted:Catching up on the last few pages of this thread and holy poo poo, Rhaegar = Raydar is a hilariously dumb theory I was joking when I first proposed it. I just want that on record.
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Aug 18, 2014 12:30
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ClearAirTurbulence posted:"We heard you had a guy hear named "Ray" who sounds a lot like Rhaegar Targaryan." Everyone Loves Rhaegar.
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Aug 18, 2014 13:20
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PupsOfWar posted:one thing that has always confused me about various Jon parentage theories is: if Jon isn't Ned's son, why not claim him as Brandon's bastard rather than his own? Because lots of the interesting stuff relating to the Stark children, especially between Rob and Jon would be far less interesting if he was thought to be Brandon's son instead of Ned's. Also Brandon has little time to father a Bastard between his duel with Littlefinger and his death in Kings Landing he does nothing but travel the road, certainly not to anyone who would carry the child south for Ned to later find in Dorne.
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Aug 18, 2014 13:58
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Is it pronounced "Ree-gar" or "Ray-gar"?
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Aug 18, 2014 14:08
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PostNouveau posted:Is it pronounced "Ree-gar" or "Ray-gar"? In the show they pronounce it Ray-gar
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Aug 18, 2014 14:44
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webmeister posted:In the show they pronounce it Ray-gar Rheagar = Raydar theory confirmed
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Aug 18, 2014 15:22
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mastajake posted:It doesn't really matter anymore now anyway. Assuming Jon lives, here are Martin's options: 1) do R+L=J and just deal with everyone being all smug and saying they called it, or 2) do something different and just deal with everyone saying he changed his reveal because people guessed it, regardless of if he actually did. I think at this point, with an understanding of how GRRM writes, either R+L=J isn't true OR it is true and it doesn't play out at all like we expect. Something like Bran sees it through the trees, but Jon never actually finds out.
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Aug 18, 2014 16:42
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Because lots of the interesting stuff relating to the Stark children, especially between Rob and Jon would be far less interesting if he was thought to be Brandon's son instead of Ned's. To add onto it, were Jon to be legitimized (under this scenario), Ned's son Robb would have no inheritance.
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Aug 18, 2014 16:51
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mastajake posted:It doesn't really matter anymore now anyway. Assuming Jon lives, here are Martin's options: 1) do R+L=J and just deal with everyone being all smug and saying they called it, or 2) do something different and just deal with everyone saying he changed his reveal because people guessed it, regardless of if he actually did. GRRM has said he avoids message boards specifically to avoid 2) .
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Aug 18, 2014 17:54
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computer parts posted:GRRM has said he avoids message boards specifically to avoid 2) . He also avoids writing so no one will ever find out if R + L = J
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Aug 18, 2014 18:48
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Mnemosyne posted:Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of poo poo in the book that is pretty hidden, and I'm not trying to say that it's easy to suss out all the clues and foreshadowing, but he lays it on heavy when it comes to R+L=J. To compare, I think Oberyn poisoning Tywin is a strong theory and I feel 99% sure it's true, but I feel that very, very few people will come to that conclusion without someone else bringing it up. It's also very different in that it kind of doesn't matter to the story whether it's true or not, since it doesn't change anything, unlike R+L=J. (God, I feel like such a nerd typing R+L=J.) I feel like the theory about Oberyn poising Tywin could be an intentional choice on GRRM's part since the history of Westeros is full of plots that would have gone uncovered unless someone really went digging for them and ASOIAF is full of plots nobody in Westeros will ever know of. mastajake posted:To add onto it, were Jon to be legitimized (under this scenario), Ned's son Robb would have no inheritance. If Ned claimed Jon were Brandon's son, people might rally behind Jon over Ned as liege of the North in the future or outside forces could attempt to use Jon to usurp Ned (like the Boltons are "using" Ned's daughters). Not only does Jon's birth not line up with anything Brandon could have done, he'd present a challenge to Ned since a legitimized Jon would be ahead of Ned as heir to the North in that scenario. tadashi fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 19:26
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The thing I like about the "Oberyn poisoned Tywin" theory is it shows that Oberyn had a plan before the Joffrey/Tyrion stuff happened.
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Aug 18, 2014 21:09
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The part I like is that he intended to be caught and accused of Tywin's murder so he could kill the Mountain in his own trial by combat.
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Aug 18, 2014 21:29
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Is trial by combat supposed to be an available option for everyone in every case? It seems like someone suitably badass enough could get away with anything by just requesting trial by combat and murdering whoever gets thrown up against them.
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Aug 18, 2014 22:34
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If you're a murderous badass in Westeros, people give you land and titles so that you'll be their murderous badass.
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Aug 18, 2014 22:42
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Or if that's not an option they just won't take you alive for a trial.
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Aug 18, 2014 22:46
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Mortabis posted:Or if that's not an option they just won't take you alive for a trial. Yer, you'd be killed during capture or found dead in your cell if you ran around committing crimes and demanding trial by combat. That or the faith would decide you weren't allowed trial by combat because you were a heretic (likewise see the Hedge Knight where they opt for trial by seven specifically because they don't think Dunk can field a team of seven).
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Aug 18, 2014 22:49
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bango skank posted:Is trial by combat supposed to be an available option for everyone in every case? It seems like someone suitably badass enough could get away with anything by just requesting trial by combat and murdering whoever gets thrown up against them. Pretty much. There needs to be enough doubt about the guilt of the defendant to warrant a trial in the first place though. Olenna couldn't have just buried a knife into Joffrey's throat in front of everyone at his wedding and then requested a trial by combat. Tyrion and Sandor were only afforded their respective trials by combat (twice in Tyrion's case) because they weren't 100% proven guilty. However, I think knights are able to declare a trial by combat no matter what though. I'm basing this on Dunk being told by Baelor Breakspear that he could still request a trial by combat even though he kicked the poo poo out of Aerion in front of an entire crowd of people.
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Aug 18, 2014 22:52
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So do you guys think it is pretty much definite that the last shot of the season will be Dany riding off into the sunset on a dragon? Though it would be hilarious the reaction if they opted to end the season on the chapter ADWD ends with (not counting epilogue)
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Aug 18, 2014 23:27
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asvodel posted:So do you guys think it is pretty much definite that the last shot of the season will be Dany riding off into the sunset on a dragon? It seems pretty likely that the basic beats of Dany's last chapter are going to be in the last episode of Season 5. That or they have that in Ep 9 and 10 is her bringing a Khal back to cleanse Meereen and ride west.
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Aug 18, 2014 23:31
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I'm thinking that the fighting pit will be the season's climax, but not necessarily the final scene. Maybe just Dany's last scene. For a final scene of the season, I'm thinking of Jon getting stabbed up.
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Aug 18, 2014 23:32
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asvodel posted:So do you guys think it is pretty much definite that the last shot of the season will be Dany riding off into the sunset on a dragon? I have no loving clue really because they are still insisting on Seven Seasons and surely they can't cover all of that and the last two books in only three seasons?
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Aug 18, 2014 23:33
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Well they might not actually have books for the final two seasons, just outlines of major plot developments.
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Aug 18, 2014 23:36
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And if Aegon is cut as speculated, they'll skip over some of those major plot developments too.
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Aug 18, 2014 23:49
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Lycus posted:For a final scene of the season, I'm thinking of Jon getting stabbed up. I could see that being the climax to episode 9, with the aftermath/potential resurrection being saved for the final episode. Stabbing Jon in the final episode wouldn't make sense, as viewers would be spoiled on whether he'd return for season 6 during the long period of downtime between seasons.
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Aug 19, 2014 00:04
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bango skank posted:Is trial by combat supposed to be an available option for everyone in every case? It seems like someone suitably badass enough could get away with anything by just requesting trial by combat and murdering whoever gets thrown up against them. Isn't this basically the Mountain?
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Aug 19, 2014 00:34
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bango skank posted:Is trial by combat supposed to be an available option for everyone in every case? It seems like someone suitably badass enough could get away with anything by just requesting trial by combat and murdering whoever gets thrown up against them. a fight against another knight is not ever gonna be a 100% sure thing even if you're way better, even without taking into account Always A Bigger Fish principles. Someone who abused the system too much would lose eventually. Or they would be poisoned/assassinated in some other way. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 00:36
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In It For The Tank posted:Pretty much. There needs to be enough doubt about the guilt of the defendant to warrant a trial in the first place though. Olenna couldn't have just buried a knife into Joffrey's throat in front of everyone at his wedding and then requested a trial by combat. Tyrion and Sandor were only afforded their respective trials by combat (twice in Tyrion's case) because they weren't 100% proven guilty. Not exactly. While there were witnesses to Aerion assaulting Tanselle they wouldn't testify against Aerion by saying the assault was unjustified, and Egg refuted Daeron's accusation that Dunk had kidnapped him. That brought it down to Dunk and Egg's word against Daeron and Aerion's, which is why a trial was required.
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Aug 19, 2014 00:44
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Dienes posted:Isn't this basically the Mountain? Only so long as one is down with the crown. I think that when the King declares someone to be an outlaw, as Ned named the Mountain in Robert's name, you lose the ability to claim noble rights and can get dog-piled by whoever. I imagine such things are rare as they implicitly undermine the legitimacy of the King, and would look really bad if guilt is in doubt (if Oberyn poisoned Tywin he probably beat six or seven other people with a motive to the punch) or the target can't outlaw for poo poo (Tyrion).
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Aug 19, 2014 03:03
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Last night I went to see Jack Gleesons puppet show, where he plays an emotionally conflicted AI and a mad screeching goblin. Dude's got range, I'll give him that much.
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Aug 20, 2014 11:37
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More Preston Jacobs on TOJ: [Spoilers] A Song of Ice and Fire: Tower, Tower, …: http://youtu.be/CXGBP4SVwcc
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Aug 20, 2014 23:31
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bango skank posted:Is trial by combat supposed to be an available option for everyone in every case? It seems like someone suitably badass enough could get away with anything by just requesting trial by combat and murdering whoever gets thrown up against them. This was a real problem in real life. Professional duelists in Germany would go around roughing up peasants and if they went to the courts the duelists would demand combat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat Also good read: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1416262/Court-refuses-trial-by-combat.html
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Aug 21, 2014 06:48
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