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FrozenVent posted:Yeah, gently caress these guys. I place almost no value in them since the odds of them being around in 35 years when I get to retire are somewhere between zero and hahahah yeah loving right. Besides, in this day and age who works at the same job the majority of their life aside from teachers/police/fire and other public employees?
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Jul 31, 2014 17:28
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Appachai posted:Just an update: I talked to the COO on the phone about the offer. She said that due to the corporate guidelines she couldn't change the salary, but she had some leeway in other areas. She gave me a 10K signing bonus. I think you guys are right about not negotiating with HR. The HR person probably didn't have the authority to change anything.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:17
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It still seems like they're in cost control mode which is not a good sign of growth in a startup. You WANT to control costs, of course, but you do that by not hiring a ton of people and being very selective when you do hire, not lowballing each individual candidate. In a competitive marketplace, that's a recipe for having a small team of B and C players — not a winning strategy. Granted, I'm less familiar with the life sciences industry, but my sense is that burn is so high and investors' time horizon for an exit so long that paying at least in the middle of the range for a PhD-level hire wouldn't move the needle too much.
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Aug 1, 2014 01:23
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I was asked to provide a salary history for a position I applied for. I would really like to get the job but I don't make much money. I'd like to change that, hence why I'm seeking other jobs. The position is a support position for a SaaS company. They're located in Chicago. This is what I was considering sending in response. quote:My current salary is below the average for my area but my employer does provide rather good benefits and a great PTO package. I would be happy to discuss what a position such as this one pays. It feels weird to me. Like I'm being coy or something. Any advice?
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Aug 8, 2014 01:16
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Yeah, don't say your salary is below average. How far are you in the process? If this is early on, just punt until later and say you'd be happy to discuss compensation at a later date. If this closer to the offer stage, mention that you're interested in a competitive salary (and maybe give a broad range if you feel comfortable giving a number).
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Aug 8, 2014 01:20
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That's helpful, I don't want to seem fresh off the turnip truck. Thanks! Yeah, these are the earliest phases of the whole thing. I punted the question. Said I'd be glad to discuss salary if I'm found to be a good candidate for the position. Roger Troutman fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 01:27
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Citizen Jerk posted:That's helpful, I don't want to seem fresh off the turnip truck. Thanks! This is the right answer. You want to establish how valuable you are to them before talking about price. If they push you on it down the just stick to your guns and say you expect to be offered a competitive salary. Have a range of what you think a competitive salary is in your head but hold off on sharing it unless they're flat out unwilling to make an offer without a range. Aim to make your range so that the bottom is around your ideal salary and well above your bare minimum, while the top end is an optimistic but justifiable number based on a more aggressive set of salary comparables. This ensures that if they do the most likely thing and just hit the bottom of your range you'll still be happy with it. If they go below your range but above your walk away this gives you the leverage to ask for other soft concessions like better PTO or benefits vesting in light of the lower salary.
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Aug 8, 2014 08:39
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I just interviewed for a job at a public university. The job listing said "minimum $40,000" for the salary. All the salaries were listed online for everyone who worked there, and the two people in the same position as the one I applied for are making $43,000. One of them has only been there for a year or so, so I am assuming that is the generic starting salary. If I am offered the job and it goes into salary negotiations, should I ask for $45,000 knowing they will probably counter offer $43,000? Should I just say straight up I know $43,000 is the standard and that I want to make that? I don't really think there's any chance I will get higher than that, and it's not common to just be able to google future co-workers' salaries like this. If I were going in blind I would probably ask for $45,000 and hope for around $43,000 anyway.
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Aug 8, 2014 14:39
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Ask for more than you want so there is room for them to counter below what you asked for. I would also expect to get less than 43k if the person has been there a year though there are a ton of factors that could influence that.
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Aug 8, 2014 15:50
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systran posted:I just interviewed for a job at a public university. The job listing said "minimum $40,000" for the salary. All the salaries were listed online for everyone who worked there, and the two people in the same position as the one I applied for are making $43,000. One of them has only been there for a year or so, so I am assuming that is the generic starting salary. If I am offered the job and it goes into salary negotiations, should I ask for $45,000 knowing they will probably counter offer $43,000? Should I just say straight up I know $43,000 is the standard and that I want to make that? I don't really think there's any chance I will get higher than that, and it's not common to just be able to google future co-workers' salaries like this. If I were going in blind I would probably ask for $45,000 and hope for around $43,000 anyway. My wife's experience with this exact situation was basically no negotiation. But good luck.
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Aug 8, 2014 21:12
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Did they offer her what the other people were making or something lower?
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Aug 8, 2014 21:36
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systran posted:Did they offer her what the other people were making or something lower? Exactly the same, everyone made $40k there were 3 people who all started the same year. This was at university of Colorado.
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Aug 8, 2014 22:14
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Thanks for this thread. Applying the techniques/principles in this thread made me an extra five figures today. 
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Aug 15, 2014 05:31
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Hi thread, I am back again. To recap, I am a newly graduated veterinary technician who is currently unlicensed, but has passed his boards and will be licensed in a couple of weeks once paperwork goes through. I just started a job at an emergency clinic in June, and have had feelers out for day practice opportunities in case I didn't like nights. I just got through a series of interviews at a day practice and they offered me a job. I'd like to make the switch because schedule wise it's better for my family, and I do like the clinic overall. The problem is that they've offered me the same amount that I make now, before I am licensed, which means after my current job gives me an increase for becoming licensed (which will amount to about 4k/year), I would be taking a pay cut. How can I most tactfully say that I would love to take them up on the opportunity to work there, but I can't justify taking a pay cut to do it? They offered me the job over the phone two hours after my working interview ended today, and I said that I was very happy to hear that they wanted to offer me the position, and asked them to email me the details so that I could have a chance to look things over and make a decision. They gave me until Monday to decide. Going into the emergency job, I thought I would be making significantly more that my day practice counterparts, but after talking to my peers who graduated with me, that did not appear to be the case, so I can't rationalize the difference in pay as the cost of losing an emergency differential, either.
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Aug 15, 2014 21:23
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Not Grover posted:Hi thread, I am back again. To recap, I am a newly graduated veterinary technician who is currently unlicensed, but has passed his boards and will be licensed in a couple of weeks once paperwork goes through. I just started a job at an emergency clinic in June, and have had feelers out for day practice opportunities in case I didn't like nights. I just got through a series of interviews at a day practice and they offered me a job. I'd like to make the switch because schedule wise it's better for my family, and I do like the clinic overall. The problem is that they've offered me the same amount that I make now, before I am licensed, which means after my current job gives me an increase for becoming licensed (which will amount to about 4k/year), I would be taking a pay cut. How can I most tactfully say that I would love to take them up on the opportunity to work there, but I can't justify taking a pay cut to do it? They offered me the job over the phone two hours after my working interview ended today, and I said that I was very happy to hear that they wanted to offer me the position, and asked them to email me the details so that I could have a chance to look things over and make a decision. They gave me until Monday to decide. You've already said most of what you should say in your post: "Thank you for the offer. I'm really interested in this position but what you're offering for salary is below market rate for a certified technician. I'd be prepared to sign on if you could revise your offer to $x." X should be something above the number you want / need to move so that you have room to concede gracefully if they push back. You have a strong position because you know exactly what you're going to get in your current job. Personal story time (since it can be hard to prove you walk the talk sometimes): I was let go by my former employer about 6 months ago due to challenges in the industry and a need to manage head count. I wasn't under performing but the nature of my industry means that if there isn't room to move up you're sent packing with a severance package rather than left hanging around. As a result, I've been searching for something new for several months, but with the backstop of having my previous income continue until fairly recently. A week ago, I received an offer for a position at a company I find very interesting. It's in a different but related field, but for a number of reasons pays significantly less than my old position. The offer ended up being roughly a third of my previous income, but required significantly less time commitment. This offer unfortunately was also 30-45% below what my research said competing positions were paying. I had good data from recruiters and had actually had an offer from a different firm for a similar job, which I didn't take due to some concerns I had about the company's viability. An opening offer that low could be concerning for a number of reasons but I was confident in this case that the firm was healthy so was willing to see what they could do. Data in hand, I reverted to my potential employer with my target range of 40-75% above what they had originally offered, plus some soft asks such as minimum notice period related to my seniority as well as benefit vesting. They got back to me very quickly that there was a hard cap on cash comp about 10% above their original offer, but that they would be willing to include me in their option plan. They didn't say no immediately to the notice and benefits asks but instead asked why I was interested in them. The equity offer was interesting to me, but after calculating the value of the options their offer only made up for about one years' difference in cash compensation, unless the company saw significant growth, in which case I would end up about flat with the cash comp from the alternative position over the four-year vesting period of the options. I reverted with a counter-proposal of either 4x the number of options up front, or 2x the original offer plus ongoing performance-based issuance with a floor and ceiling. My preference is for the latter but I wanted to give them some choice and show that I could be flexible on structure. I expect they will revert with an offer of around 2-3x the original option offer up front (no ongoing issuance) and push back on my soft asks. I'd be ok with this as it means I end up with a floor value of a bit less than the comparable position (or a 35% increase from their original offer) but have potential to exceed my previous income if the company does well. I'm sure some of you might wonder how I had any leverage at all in this negotiation. I wasn't obscuring the fact that I wasn't currently employed; in fact I had clarified this fact to the company a couple times when someone incorrectly assumed that I was. There are a couple things I used to establish leverage: 1. No pay discussion until they had already made the decision to hire me. At this point I KNEW that I was their preferred candidate, which has a lot more weight than you might think. If nothing else there can be sunk cost behaviour and/or institutional inertia once a hiring decision is made. 2. The afore-mentioned research. Having a clear benchmark for salary allowed me to define my BATNA as thus: I am financially better off even if I choose to not work for an additional three months, assuming I can get a job at the higher comparable salary in that time period. 3. Careful financial planning. Even if I didn't get a higher paying job down the road, I have sufficient savings to bridge the intervening period. Each individual will have a different financial situation so this may have more or less impact for different situations. The greater your general financial independence the less beholden you are to any one job. I didn't go into the negotiation by disclosing this but made sure to drop enough subtle hints in our conversation that they knew I wasn't in a panic to find a job. To turn this to advice, even if you are in a hurry, it's really, really important not to let that drop to your potential employer. You should always be honest about your current employment status but disclosing that you need to buy groceries next week or something like that is negotiating suicide. Rather than engendering sympathy your counterparts will likely just see blood in the water. The minute they know this you lose almost all of your ammo. 4. Ask for advice. In spite of my negotiating / hiring experience, before making my counter-offer I spoke to friends who both had similar jobs as well as one who would have been in a position to hire someone like me. This gave me the context to structure my counter proposal in a way that would be most attractive to my potential employer while providing me with the best value. It was this advice that guided me to the structure alternatives I provided. The company got my counter-offer on Friday morning and elected to consider it over the weekend. I'll update the thread when I hear back.
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Aug 18, 2014 01:56
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Kalenn Istarion posted:You've already said most of what you should say in your post:
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Aug 18, 2014 03:17
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Not Grover posted:Hi thread, I am back again. To recap, I am a newly graduated veterinary technician who is currently unlicensed, but has passed his boards and will be licensed in a couple of weeks once paperwork goes through. I just started a job at an emergency clinic in June, and have had feelers out for day practice opportunities in case I didn't like nights. I just got through a series of interviews at a day practice and they offered me a job. I'd like to make the switch because schedule wise it's better for my family, and I do like the clinic overall. The problem is that they've offered me the same amount that I make now, before I am licensed, which means after my current job gives me an increase for becoming licensed (which will amount to about 4k/year), I would be taking a pay cut. How can I most tactfully say that I would love to take them up on the opportunity to work there, but I can't justify taking a pay cut to do it? They offered me the job over the phone two hours after my working interview ended today, and I said that I was very happy to hear that they wanted to offer me the position, and asked them to email me the details so that I could have a chance to look things over and make a decision. They gave me until Monday to decide. I agree with swenblack and Kalenn. Ask for 6k/year more, then be willing to walk it back to 4k/year more. You're not collecting a premium for working an emergency shift based on comps with your peers, so don't take a pay cut to work a non-emergency shift. If they won't get to comparable compensation for you post-licensing, stay in your current gig and keep looking. Also remember that once you're licensed your attractiveness to prospective employers shoots up big time, and it seems you do well interviewing already. Stuff in writing is always way more of a sure thing than stuff a prospective employee assures you will be in writing "any day now, just wait a bit".
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Aug 18, 2014 14:50
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Well, to be perfectly honest, it didn't go as well as I'd have liked it to. I sent back an email asking for something closer to (+8k), and they called me, put me on speaker with the hospital and office administrators, and started negotiating. Frankly, I choked a little bit. They balked at my high end, and I would have been surprised if they hadn't, but if I were more experienced and better on the spot, I could have gotten them to (+4-5k) I think. As it is, they offered (+2k) with verbal promises of an increase after 90 days based on some nebulous criteria (how well I was "living the culture" of the practice?). and I elected to stay where I am and resume searching after licensure if I still want day shift or don't feel adequately compensated. So at the least, this was a valuable experience for me in learning/dealing with negotiations, and it was a big confidence boost on top of that to have gotten the offer. Thanks again for all of your replies, it's really helped a lot to have some guidance in an area where I've had minimal experience.
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Aug 20, 2014 19:35
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Not Grover posted:Well, to be perfectly honest, it didn't go as well as I'd have liked it to. I sent back an email asking for something closer to (+8k), and they called me, put me on speaker with the hospital and office administrators, and started negotiating. Frankly, I choked a little bit. They balked at my high end, and I would have been surprised if they hadn't, but if I were more experienced and better on the spot, I could have gotten them to (+4-5k) I think. As it is, they offered (+2k) with verbal promises of an increase after 90 days based on some nebulous criteria (how well I was "living the culture" of the practice?). and I elected to stay where I am and resume searching after licensure if I still want day shift or don't feel adequately compensated. So at the least, this was a valuable experience for me in learning/dealing with negotiations, and it was a big confidence boost on top of that to have gotten the offer. Thanks again for all of your replies, it's really helped a lot to have some guidance in an area where I've had minimal experience. The negotiating isn't over, by the way. I don't see any harm in e-mailing them back and thanking them for the offer and that you would strongly consider applying again after you get licensed and can command a salary more in line with your experience and qualifications.
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Aug 20, 2014 23:01
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Not Grover posted:Well, to be perfectly honest, it didn't go as well as I'd have liked it to. I sent back an email asking for something closer to (+8k), and they called me, put me on speaker with the hospital and office administrators, and started negotiating. Frankly, I choked a little bit. They balked at my high end, and I would have been surprised if they hadn't, but if I were more experienced and better on the spot, I could have gotten them to (+4-5k) I think. As it is, they offered (+2k) with verbal promises of an increase after 90 days based on some nebulous criteria (how well I was "living the culture" of the practice?). and I elected to stay where I am and resume searching after licensure if I still want day shift or don't feel adequately compensated. So at the least, this was a valuable experience for me in learning/dealing with negotiations, and it was a big confidence boost on top of that to have gotten the offer. Thanks again for all of your replies, it's really helped a lot to have some guidance in an area where I've had minimal experience. Actually being able to walk away is the most useful tool in negotiating you can have. No amount of experience, charisma, or persuasiveness will get an offer above what an employer sets as a limit at the outset, so you'll always have times when you need to agree that you can't find a mutually agreeable arrangement. And that's fine. There are only two losing moves: not continuing to look, and taking an offer that puts you in a worse position. You haven't done either.
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Aug 21, 2014 14:30
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I'm a recent graduate and currently negotiating job offers with several places. I turned down a job offer at the firm I currently intern at because it was solely a tech job, and I'm trying to move away from that. The next day, I was told that they are trying to write a new job description that "better fits my goals," because they feel that the fact I know both tech and chocolate teapots is a valuable asset. This is generous, but I would rather only be working on chocolate teapots. I know that there isn't much negotiating to be had at the entry level, but I do have some impressive qualifications. How much leeway would I have in negotiating salary?
KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Aug 22, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 15:55
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If you're a recent graduate, how do you have impressive qualifications? I don't mean this in a mean way, really more curious than anything.
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Aug 22, 2014 14:12
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Sorry if that seemed a little boastful – I only meant relative to other recent graduates. Without getting into too much detail, I have a lot of work experience and a sought-after skillset for my field. Obviously I'm still just fresh out of college though, which is why I'm wondering if that gives me any negotiating headroom. Even if I have a higher-paying offer from another firm, I don't want to come off as cocky to a potential employer.
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Aug 22, 2014 15:35
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There's no downside to negotiating especially if you have the potential for other offers. There is nothing cocky about asking for a match, especially if you have a higher dollar offer in hand. If you can draw a direct line from what makes you special to the job's responsibilities, that helps you negotiate more effectively.
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Aug 22, 2014 15:43
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Even if I have a higher-paying offer from another firm, I don't want to come off as cocky to a potential employer. Asking for a match isn't cocky, and to the extent you can glean intangible qualities of employers while interviewing, demanding more from an employer with worse intangibles is entirely appropriate. e.g. Employer A and B both want you to do the same work, A expects a suit & tie every day, B is filled with people walking around in t-shirt and shorts. If you prefer to wear a t-shirt and shorts, A should pay you more than B. As a recent grad you probably can't fire up a bidding war, but if you can, certainly don't stop it. You'll have to deliver and do a good job, but you're more likely to be valued and treated well if getting you to work there takes some effort from the employer.
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Aug 22, 2014 18:16
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Kalenn Istarion posted:You've already said most of what you should say in your post: So, after some back and forth the company decided that they couldn't get to the comp levels that someone of my experience would expect and so are going to hire someone more junior. I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't find a middle ground as I liked the company, but not enough to take a 30% haircut in the hope that it would all work out someday.
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Aug 26, 2014 02:45
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Kalenn Istarion posted:So, after some back and forth the company decided that they couldn't get to the comp levels that someone of my experience would expect and so are going to hire someone more junior.
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Aug 26, 2014 04:54
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swenblack posted:Sorry, bud. Good work, though, putting yourself in the position where you didn't have to take the low-ball offer. We'll see how I feel about my negotiating stance six months from now 
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Aug 26, 2014 05:07
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Quick question: my girlfriend has an interview tomorrow, and she's located in Hong Kong. She's not exactly the fiercest negotiator, and she's been sent this little e-mail with two documents. The first one she needs to fill out her name, address, work permit etc., and, oddly, "expected salary." The second is a form where she allows future employer to contact current employer for employment, performance and salary information. This is a fairly big, international, well-respected engineering company. I advised her in no uncertain terms to under no circumstance sign off on the second paper, because 1) Disclosing current salary significantly reduces her negotiating power. and 2) Once new firm contacts current firm with these questions, of course current firm will know she's looking to get a new job, and will give her raises, tasks and promotions accordingly. (This could be a good thing, but I'm not holding my breath.) Is Asia vastly different about this? I find the method incredibly bizarre...
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Sep 9, 2014 17:38
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bolind posted:Quick question: my girlfriend has an interview tomorrow, and she's located in Hong Kong. She's not exactly the fiercest negotiator, and she's been sent this little e-mail with two documents. The first one she needs to fill out her name, address, work permit etc., and, oddly, "expected salary." I can't speak to Hong Kong hiring practices but if she doesn't want to risk her current job she absolutely shouldn't sign the second doc. She could however offer to provide authorization for a standard reference check upon a formal offer of employment. The ask for performance information is also weird. There may be some need toe Ducati her prospective employer that this is something that North American companies rarely provide for fear of litigation, even if positive. You can now be sued if a company makes an 'improper hire' because of a positive recommendation from your old boss. Every place I've worked would provide only a confirmation that I did in fact work there and a date range and that's it. Smaller companies are likely to be more lax on this but it's something to be very careful of. You're right on the ask for current salary as well. There's no reason to provide it.
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Sep 9, 2014 18:59
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I just got two job offers, but I'm mostly interested in one (because it pays about more.) Both jobs would be with nonprofits, and they have a great benefits package. The offer was stated as "the position pays a range of 65-70k, but given your relative inexperience we'd start you at 65." Should I attempt to ask for the 70, given they said that range exists? How do I ask for it if I (mentally) agree with their "relative inexperience" explanation? Would it be wiser to ask to start with a week's vacation already accrued (as I'd value that as well.) The job requires some travel, and my wife and I currently share a car. Is it reasonable to ask for a "transportation allowance" to assist me in getting a second vehicle? (Apologies if this rehashes anything, I'm only up to page 7 in the thread.)
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Sep 13, 2014 01:39
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Is the travel based on you providing the car and them paying you a set rate per mile? In that case I would use that as leverage ("I share a car with my wife, so this would mean an added expense for me.") to get above 65k. Otherwise, it's usually the company's headache to get you to places that aren't your office, they'll have to provide you a rental car if they want you to drive places, but a mileage deal + a little more pay might be a better deal for them. With regards to other ways of getting a bit above 65k - do you have any other areas where you excel? "I agree that my overall experience is on the lower end of the scale, but I happen to speak and write perfect Ugandan." or something. Also, you can use the "70k" in your favor in a year or two come salary adjustment. They said the position pays up to 70k, and you are now experienced, ergo you should get 70k.
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Sep 13, 2014 14:09
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bolind posted:Is the travel based on you providing the car and them paying you a set rate per mile? Yep, my vehicle. I presume there is a standard mileage reimbursement rate company-wide, though I'll be sure to confirm that suspicion. I can't think of how to frame the idea in the negotiation without sounding like a chump. i.e. "As I currently share a vehicle with my wife, we'll have to get a second to ensure my ability to do this job. Can you help me out with some cash to buy a second car ASAP?" or "The travel reimbursement sounds solid, but it'd be putting a lot of miles on my current shared vehicle. What say you chip in a couple grand up front to assist me in getting a second car i can dedicate exclusively to this job?"
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Sep 14, 2014 07:53
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How do you bring up the subject of employee agreements? I would think only very senior people would negotiate those typically, but I was handed one with a truly obnoxious non-compete clause. I think it's bad enough for me to walk over, which would make me sad, but I don't think I can sign it and hope it's not enforceable. I really have no experience negotiating contract terms.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:47
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How obnoxious? I signed an 18 month one where they at least had to pay your salary for that time (they had no money to pay to enforce it in the end though). I'd really like to hear about negotiating them as well.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:56
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12 months, no pay, even if terminated not-for-cause. Also, it's fully assignable, so even if they run out of money, someone will inherit their rights to the agreement.
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Sep 15, 2014 03:11
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KernelSlanders posted:How do you bring up the subject of employee agreements? I would think only very senior people would negotiate those typically, but I was handed one with a truly obnoxious non-compete clause. I think it's bad enough for me to walk over, which would make me sad, but I don't think I can sign it and hope it's not enforceable. I really have no experience negotiating contract terms.
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Sep 15, 2014 03:48
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swenblack posted:I hate to say it, but this isn't a negotiation question, it's a highly regionally-dependent labor lawyer question. Usually this sort of thing is negotiable and unenforceable, but there are a lot of situations were the opposite is true. Spend $200 and get a real answer from a lawyer. Let's assume the lawyer says, "yes, KernelSlanders, it means what you think it means." Now we're back to a negotiation question. Or were you suggesting to have the lawyer negotiate the terms? That is going to be a much more expensive proposition.
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Sep 15, 2014 03:59
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KernelSlanders posted:Let's assume the lawyer says, "yes, KernelSlanders, it means what you think it means." Now we're back to a negotiation question. Or were you suggesting to have the lawyer negotiate the terms? That is going to be a much more expensive proposition. Just say "I'm not willing to sign the noncompete as written. What can we do about that?" They'll likely just remove it all together (you'd be surprised how often this happens) or they'll ask your problems, and you can say that you'd want to be compensated while you couldn't work. It's only fair, after all. Basically every place with a noncompete they actually plan on enforcing will agree to do so (primarily because except in the absolute most employer-friendly jurisdiction, a noncompete that doesn't pay you is likely unenforceable.)
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Sep 15, 2014 04:10
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KernelSlanders posted:Let's assume the lawyer says, "yes, KernelSlanders, it means what you think it means." Now we're back to a negotiation question. Or were you suggesting to have the lawyer negotiate the terms? That is going to be a much more expensive proposition. If you're willing to walk over it then it's pretty easy. Either they mitigate it by changing the terms, pay you enough more that you're not out of pocket, or you tell them to get hosed. Based on personal experience, it's pretty unusual for a non-compete period to be unpaid on termination not for cause but as swenblack noted its a question that's really specific to the labour laws and precedents in your region and industry.
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Sep 15, 2014 04:10
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