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Maybe we should ban guns and just bring back swords imagine how much cooler this would be if everyone had swords yeaaaaaaaaah
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Aug 21, 2014 05:35
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BottledBodhisvata posted:Can we not develop a better one? I dunno. All I'm saying is, in the current technological zeitgeist we are enjoying, is it really so far-fetched to devise some way of incapacitating somebody reliably and nonfatally? It is. Things that incapacitate quickly are bad for the body, usually really bad. Tranquilizer is just a nice way of saying poison. Chemically speaking, most anything that puts a person down that fast has a chance to do long lasting damage to livers, kidneys, and other useful organs. That's why anesthesiologists get paid the big bucks and have to go to school for years. I really don't want cops getting a six hour training course on a dart gun and calling it good.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:36
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There are also no nationally accepted standards for use of force and neither are there no complete national registries for use of deadly force incidents in teh US. Neither are there requirements for boards to investigate use of force or an agency that could issue new regulation after investigation.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:36
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chitoryu12 posted:Because that's not how anesthesia works. I've played a lot of Metal Gear Solid, so as a qualified expert on the subject,
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Aug 21, 2014 05:36
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I'm reluctant to engage with people on this forum because I think you're unlikely to accept the opinions of any one as an expert on firearms and how that plays into the role of how police use them. Nonetheless I feel the need to address a few things I saw in the past couple pages. Warning shots are generally a bad idea. Most American laws specify that firearms are always deadly force regardless of how used. To justify deadly force it must be immediately necessary. If there is the time for warning shots there is time for other less lethal or non lethal options. A safe backstop might not be, so using the firearm should always be a last resort. Limb shots. Again deadly force is justified or not. If that's the shot an officer has it might be appropriate. Limb shots are still potentially fatal. You're also counting on the police being hyper competent with marksmanship which most are not. Depending on where the agency is they may not have access to ranges easily and if the culture is anti gun there will be few officers that choose to become proficient on their own. See NYPDs recent string of shooting multiple innocent bystanders for example. Multiple shots. Firing one or two shots and assessing if someone is still a threat exposes the officer to risk of counter attack. Officers have in fact been killed because a wounded suspect returned fire or closed the distance. Firing 2 shots and assessing went out of style with revolvers where 2 shots was 1/3 of the ammunition capacity and reloading was slow. 5-6 is now roughly 1/3-1/4 the capacity and training revolves around shooting until the threat stops (usually on the ground or as they fall). It overwhelms the opponents nervous system and they are less able to fight back. Pohl posted:The St. Louis police don't have tasers. Incredibly stupid for a modern law enforcement not to. They also didn't have dash cam or body cams. quote:Are you crazy? I don't mean you, I mean the person getting shot. Are they crazy? Do they know that? Human reaction times are a real scientifically proven thing. If I am defending and have my gun out and pointed at you and I wait for you to point a gun at me or start pointing it, best case we will shoot each other at the same time. This includes if you are facing 90 degrees away. If you don't drop the weapon right away the officer is taking a risk that you will not shoot him. If my finger is on the trigger it takes 0.25 seconds to fire if I make the decision to. It also takes as long to stop shooting. Reaction cannot beat action, at least not easily without distance and movement. If I am holstered and I am good it will take me 1.5-1.75 to get the gun out and fire the first shot. In the same amount of time an opponent with an edged weapon can cover 21 feet. Most people because they do not practice will take 2-2.5 seconds which increases this distance to 25-35 feet. This incident happened in 1998. The deputy had previously been disciplined for use of force so he was less willing to use force when justified, he had also been taught to never shoot until a gun was actually pointed at him. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e91_1324341647 Academies and internal training have been watching it and other videos for 16 years now as examples of what not to do. Why do police operate the way they do? Because it makes them more survivable. Force on force training and real world use validates these methods. What the police do need is on body cameras for every officer recording every contact. The police don't want to kill you and the safest way to avoid that is immediately complying with whatever orders they give you. Even if an arrest is unlawful arguing or resisting right there could result in injury or death. Sue them later when a muzzle isn't pointed in your face. I've had the police point guns at me several times during my adult life, including one time where it was called in as terrorists with machine guns. We still managed to avoid getting shot and the situation was quickly resolved. SinistralRifleman fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 05:37
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SinistralRifleman posted:The police don't want to kill you Yeah, about that... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFia3Uo0TQ
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Aug 21, 2014 05:39
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yeah... Here, read or watch this: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/ zeal posted:Yeah, about that... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFia3Uo0TQ 
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Aug 21, 2014 05:39
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SinistralRifleman posted:I'm reluctant to engage with people on this forum because I think you're unlikely to accept the opinions of any one as an expert on firearms and how that plays into the role of how police use them. Nonetheless I feel the need to address a few things I saw in the past couple pages. You forgot to tell why how these policies that just can't work do work elsewhere in the World and do not lead to massive bystanders being killed or massive police casualties. On the contrast, where center mass clip-unloading is done, perps, cops and bystander get killed on a higher rate. "Force on force training and real world use validates these methods." Despite policing being relatively safe, out of civilized countries, you are worst off in here as a cop. That is not a thing to just hop over. Police shoot and get shot at elsewhere, too. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 05:40
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Pohl posted:I never said it was justified, stop putting words in my mouth. Read the thread. Wasn't my intention to insinuate you said that, just speaking more to the general hosed up situation. Looking on in from Canada makes all this seem pretty nuts and so goddamn crazy, and the worst I can think we've had is that one guy that rushed a cop in a buss and got shot dead. That never should have happened, but a lot more justified given confined spaces and a confirmed crazy person with a knife that eventually rushed the cop after a longish standoff. Nothing comes close to Michael Brown up here, though. My apologies for earlier and condolences on one hosed up police state.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:42
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SinistralRifleman posted:I'm reluctant to engage with people on this forum because I think you're unlikely to accept the opinions of any one as an expert on firearms and how that plays into the role of how police use them. Nonetheless I feel the need to address a few things I saw in the past couple pages. A good post.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:44
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Aug 21, 2014 05:44
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in the video of the guy that supposedly had a knife and was lunging and stole two cans of pop, why do they put cuffs on a dead body?
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Aug 21, 2014 05:51
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SinistralRifleman posted:I'm reluctant to engage with people on this forum because I think you're unlikely to accept the opinions of any one as an expert on firearms and how that plays into the role of how police use them. Nonetheless I feel the need to address a few things I saw in the past couple pages. You have basically just regurgitated much of the basis for how police in America are trained and well we know that doesn't actually work.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:51
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Al Harrington posted:in the video of the guy that supposedly had a knife and was lunging and stole two cans of pop, why do they put cuffs on a dead body? Often mandated.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:52
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Al Harrington posted:in the video of the guy that supposedly had a knife and was lunging and stole two cans of pop, why do they put cuffs on a dead body? You never know when the zombie apocalypse will strike.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:52
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Al Harrington posted:in the video of the guy that supposedly had a knife and was lunging and stole two cans of pop, why do they put cuffs on a dead body? Protocol. Only certain people can ascertain ones being alive or dead.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:52
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Niedar posted:You have basically just regurgitated much of the basis for how police in America are trained and well we know that doesn't actually work. I still don't know how dealing with someone coming at you with a knife is supposed to work. Please, in detail explain to me what you would do.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:54
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Chicago Death Rate posted:Protocol. Only certain people can ascertain ones being alive or dead. Certain often being a medical doctor, or in case of massive trauma, severed parts of body, secondary indications of death or similar, any first responder can "assume death" and does not have to provide treatment, cpr or otherwise regard as living.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:55
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Vahakyla posted:You forgot to tell why how these policies that just can't work do work elsewhere in the World and do not lead to massive bystanders being killed or massive police casualties. On the contrast, where center mass clip-unloading is done, perps, cops and bystander get killed on a higher rate. You can't view every American law enforcement agency as the same. Some are great on training, others are not. NYPD is the worst example in recent years for shooting innocent bystanders. They have a culture adverse to firearms, they have sought out equipment solutions to training problems that make using firearms harder, and officers qualify as little as every 18 months to 3 years. There is no one in a position of authority to tell them what they are doing is wrong because the police are treated as defacto experts on firearms. Where I live I compete with a number of officers that are trainers and decision makers in their departments. I also compete with several attorney's prosecutors and defense. These people are at the top 1% for firearms proficiency and understanding and I trust them to make better decisions with regards to training and equipment selection than people that fire 50 rounds every 18 months. I'm honestly not very familiar with how foreign police use firearms. I do know England uses long guns more often when firearms are called for, and this makes sense when training is Minimal shoulder fired weapons are easier to shoot well with less training. For how good many American cops are with their pistols I'd rather see them using semi auto Mp5s or M4s because their hit ratios would be better.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:55
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SinistralRifleman posted:I'm reluctant to engage with people on this forum because I think you're unlikely to accept the opinions of any one as an expert on firearms and how that plays into the role of how police use them. Nonetheless I feel the need to address a few things I saw in the past couple pages. Thank you.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:56
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Been gone for 5 hours. Did I miss anything?
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Aug 21, 2014 05:57
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Niedar posted:You have basically just regurgitated much of the basis for how police in America are trained and well we know that doesn't actually work. Yes I explained the basis, so you might understand why things are the way they are. It's up to you to disprove the basis or come up with alternative methodologies that mitigate risk to officers and the public.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:58
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7thBatallion posted:Been gone for 5 hours. Did I miss anything? Relatively quiet night due to storms/people needing to go back to their jobs. But apparently the PMC Asymmetric Solutions was hired to add some of their ex-special forces goons to the security detail of an unnamed individual visiting St. Louis this week.
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Aug 21, 2014 05:59
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Vahakyla posted:Certain often being a medical doctor, or in case of massive trauma, severed parts of body, secondary indications of death or similar, any first responder can "assume death" and does not have to provide treatment, cpr or otherwise regard as living. So we are agreeing?
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Aug 21, 2014 05:59
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SinistralRifleman posted:You can't view every American law enforcement agency as the same. Some are great on training, others are not. NYPD is the worst example in recent years for shooting innocent bystanders. They have a culture adverse to firearms, they have sought out equipment solutions to training problems that make using firearms harder, and officers qualify as little as every 18 months to 3 years. There is no one in a position of authority to tell them what they are doing is wrong because the police are treated as defacto experts on firearms. In Finland, to facilitate better limb shot success, police cars have an MP5. Limb shots with pistol are still practiced in case of no access to the support weapon. Other countries have similar concepts of support weapons. A great portion of american police do have access to patrol rifles. I do agree that with the mandated trigger pull of the NYPD managing a limb shots would be hard in a fast situation. This is not an argument against using deadly force in a mitigated way, but an argument against retardation.
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Aug 21, 2014 06:00
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zeal posted:Relatively quiet night due to storms/people needing to go back to their jobs. But apparently the PMC Asymmetric Solutions was hired to add some of their ex-special forces goons to the security detail of an unnamed individual visiting St. Louis this week. Huh. Any ideas who the high profile visitor is
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Aug 21, 2014 06:01
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Chicago Death Rate posted:So we are agreeing? Yeah, sorry for confusion. It was meant as defence to the action of putting cuffs on.
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Aug 21, 2014 06:01
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SinistralRifleman posted:I'm reluctant to engage with people on this forum because I think you're unlikely to accept the opinions of any one as an expert on firearms and how that plays into the role of how police use them. Nonetheless I feel the need to address a few things I saw in the past couple pages. You should engage with us, it isn't a bad thing. Most of us are nice. I will, however, leave you with this: https://www.google.com/search?q=fir...fficial&spell=1 Pohl fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 06:02
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7thBatallion posted:Huh. Any ideas who the high profile visitor is Holder? Maybe?
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Aug 21, 2014 06:02
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I know it's not a popular sentiment around here but I also want to put it out there that most cops - and by that I mean a big majority - aren't thrilled about killing people. These are people who suffer sever post traumatic stresa disorder and I've met people who have had severe life changing scars from their encounters with death. Terrible shootings absolutely happen, Mike Brown is a prime example, but unless Wilson is insane he has to be carrying that poo poo with him. He deserves to be locked up for a long time.
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Aug 21, 2014 06:03
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Holder should have has his feds protecting him. Not some goons.
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Aug 21, 2014 06:03
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SirJohnnyMcDonald posted:I know it's not a popular sentiment around here but I also want to put it out there that most cops - and by that I mean a big majority - aren't thrilled about killing people. These are people who suffer sever post traumatic stresa disorder and I've met people who have had severe life changing scars from their encounters with death. Terrible shootings absolutely happen, Mike Brown is a prime example, but unless Wilson is insane he has to be carrying that poo poo with him. He deserves to be locked up for a long time. Why, it's almost as though training police to respond to any threatening situation with deadly force can only lead to bad consequences!
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Aug 21, 2014 06:05
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zeal posted:Why, it's almost as though training police to respond to any threatening situation with deadly force can only lead to bad consequences! They aren't trained this way though.
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Aug 21, 2014 06:09
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Phone posting double post.
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Aug 21, 2014 06:09
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Vahakyla posted:In Finland, to facilitate better limb shot success, police cars have an MP5. Limb shots with pistol are still practiced in case of no access to the support weapon. You are bringing up Finland which I assume is your country which is almost half of what the population of NYC is. What is a mandated trigger pull for the NYPD? Can you not understand that whatever euro bullshit you project on a country of 300,000,000+ isn't the same as your poo poo? Support rifles? They are called trunk guns and they aren't made for subduing people by shooting them in the limbs
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Aug 21, 2014 06:10
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SirJohnnyMcDonald posted:They aren't trained this way though.
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Aug 21, 2014 06:11
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Chicago Death Rate posted:You are bringing up Finland which I assume is your country which is almost half of what the population of NYC is. What is a mandated trigger pull for the NYPD? Can you not understand that whatever euro bullshit you project on a country of 300,000,000+ isn't the same as your poo poo? American exceptionalism will never die! Rar.
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Aug 21, 2014 06:11
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SinistralRifleman posted:I'm reluctant to engage with people on this forum because I think you're unlikely to accept the opinions of any one as an expert on firearms and how that plays into the role of how police use them. Nonetheless I feel the need to address a few things I saw in the past couple pages. Yeah. This sort of risk averse analysis is one of the biggest problems with policing in the US. If you go into the 99% of situations where you aren't entering a duel with Doc Holiday with this mentality, then it seems to me like you almost need a more acute decision making ability than if you were more complacent about your safety. The fact that the vast majority of the time this calculus will end up with a citizen in danger, rather than yourself, might work out if you are police. I don't think for a second it makes the situation in itself any safer, though. itsgotmetoo fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 06:12
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Pohl posted:American exceptionalism will never die! Rar. America is so exceptional that it must be bad at everything, because
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Aug 21, 2014 06:13
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Chicago Death Rate posted:You are bringing up Finland which I assume is your country which is almost half of what the population of NYC is. What is a mandated trigger pull for the NYPD? Can you not understand that whatever euro bullshit you project on a country of 300,000,000+ isn't the same as your poo poo? The European Union has 505 million people. Still less combined dicharges than Major american cities. This does not take into account the asian lethality-averse tactics. Also, the patrol support weapons are not used for subduing. They are discharged when lethal force is justified. They just do not aim to kilm but to disable. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 06:13
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