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It just seems weird, with the fact that many of the rural Quon Tali and Genabackis tribes still not knowing basic ironworking let alone steel, but then again there were lizards who figured out how to produce energy rifles and anti-gravity vehicles while humans were still figuring out which rock makes better arrowheads.
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Aug 17, 2014 01:22
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amuayse posted:It just seems weird, with the fact that many of the rural Quon Tali and Genabackis tribes still not knowing basic ironworking let alone steel, but then again there were lizards who figured out how to produce energy rifles and anti-gravity vehicles while humans were still figuring out which rock makes better arrowheads. But this is nothing new. The same phenomena are found in our world - both modern and historic. Plenty of civilizations achieved heights of knowledge that seemed practically fantastic to people just hundreds or thousands of years later. Hell, we still don't know how they built the pyramids.
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Aug 17, 2014 01:45
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amuayse posted:After rereading a bunch of the books, it seems that there's a huge technological disparity between the various city states and the other nations. Much of the Malazan army troops mention that they were from rather primitive cultures like the Dal Hon and Seti. Which groups use plate armor? IIRC most armies are looking at a mixture of leather, scale, chain and small plate armor (think like a brigandine).
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Aug 17, 2014 02:59
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Ah, munition half plate then. I thought that some of the wealthier Letherii and the Tiste Andii/Liosan were in full plate though.
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Aug 17, 2014 03:06
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I thought they kinda touched on this in Memories of Ice when they uncover those long-lost Barghast swords and discuss how magic made such impeccable craftsmanship somewhat irrelevant. I also figured that's why the Imass are as they are; you don't really need to move beyond animal skins and flint when you've already figured out how to become immortal and shapeshift and travel between planes of existence and such.
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Aug 17, 2014 04:07
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amuayse posted:Ah, munition half plate then. I thought that some of the wealthier Letherii and the Tiste Andii/Liosan were in full plate though. Tiste are different. I actually just searched Midnight Tides for references to plate and the only thing I saw was when it was talking about the undersea apparition which was wearing plate armor. There might have been a different wording that suggests that the Letherii use plate but I didn't see it.
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Aug 17, 2014 04:17
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It's also a recurring message in Erikson's books in general - The presence of Magic stunts your technological development, because humans are path of least resistance animals. It's a pretty blatant reference to his archaeological/anthropological background, in that it happens with all civilisations; Necessity drives development, and lack of it culls it.
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Aug 17, 2014 14:38
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Shockeh posted:It's also a recurring message in Erikson's books in general - The presence of Magic stunts your technological development, because humans are path of least resistance animals. It's a pretty blatant reference to his archaeological/anthropological background, in that it happens with all civilisations; Necessity drives development, and lack of it culls it. Which is why the Letherii pretty much are completely stagnant at the start of Midnight Tides - they have no nearby competition that can threaten them in any meaningful ways due to their mages
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Aug 18, 2014 15:46
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So that's why most of the humans haven't progressed beyond subsistence farming or nomadic hunter gatherers? Makes sense.
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Aug 18, 2014 18:47
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"We need a better bow with which to hunt bhederin." "Nah, we'll just use magic to convince the bhederin to come closer." "Nah, we'll just use fireballs to kill the bhederin faster. It cooks them, too." "Nah, we'll just ..."
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Aug 18, 2014 21:20
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amuayse posted:So that's why most of the humans haven't progressed beyond subsistence farming or nomadic hunter gatherers? Makes sense. I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not here...
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Aug 18, 2014 22:45
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Much of the human cultures encountered outside of the Malazan Empire, Seven Cities, and Letherii proper are shown to be nomadic or small agrarian farming communities. There are a few exceptions like the Seguleh and Moranth, but they're isolationist enclaves. Magic and ancestral spirits and stuff contributing to technological and cultural stasis makes sense.
amuayse fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 23:02
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amuayse posted:Much of the human cultures encountered outside of the Malazan Empire, Seven Cities, and Letherii proper are shown to be nomadic or small agrarian farming communities. Magic and ancestral spirits and stuff contributing to technological and cultural stasis makes sense. Okay, just checking. Although it's certainly exaggerated in the Malazan world because of the presence of magic, as noted, this same concept is a thing in our own world. There are still many cultures and peoples in the world today that, for reasons of circumstance, imperialism, what have you, either never progressed past or at some point declined back to things like subsistence farming or a nomadic lifestyle. And it wasn't that long ago - a few hundred years - that certain powers were already beginning the process of industrialization while the great majority of the world's population was (for the same reasons as above) still living in those afore-mentioned conditions or ones otherwise not far removed from the middle ages.
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Aug 18, 2014 23:11
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Yeah, now that I think about it, the series does seem to have overtones of the vast technological gulf between the conquerors and subjugated that New World Imperialism had. Makes sense considering Erickson's background. I guess that's why I thought it was kind of weird since I was trying to think of an irl parallel.
amuayse fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 23:42
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Habibi posted:And it wasn't that long ago - a few hundred years - that certain powers were already beginning the process of industrialization while the great majority of the world's population was (for the same reasons as above) still living in those afore-mentioned conditions or ones otherwise not far removed from the middle ages. *cough* CHINA *cough*
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Aug 18, 2014 23:43
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I lived in Korea in 2001-2002. People picking rice by hand had cellphones on their hip. That's kind of how I see Lether and Malaz.
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Aug 19, 2014 00:21
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The more I re-read Midnight Tides, the more I remember how much I love Tehol and Bugg.
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Aug 20, 2014 13:30
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Baudin posted:Which is why the Letherii pretty much are completely stagnant at the start of Midnight Tides - they have no nearby competition that can threaten them in any meaningful ways due to their mages Well, is this actually true? The descriptions of how Kellanved formed the Malazan empire clearly shows how he used mages as the driving force. Examples are of Kellanved razing a city through magic, the Claws where many are highly proficient mage users and the mage cadres, as well as the squad mages. There were also in addition to Kellanved a number of High Mages present including Tayschrenn, Nightchill, Bellurdan and more. And that is not including the T'lan Imass with their Bonecasters. However at the time of GotM a lot of the mage cadres have been spent and there is a shortage of mages overall. I am a little bit disappointed by Assail since the ending was such an anticlimax. Also, the Crimson Guard becomes worse for every time you encounter them. Iron Bars is great in Midnight Tides, and then it goes downhill from that. How the gently caress did the peaceloving Jaghut get such warmongering halfbloods by mixing with humans. As well, did we ever get an explanation why Forkrul Assail was sleeping on the mountain top, I thought they were exterminated in TCG. Cardiac fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 14:00
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Cardiac posted:Well, is this actually true? Cardiac posted:The descriptions of how Kellanved formed the Malazan empire clearly shows how he used mages as the driving force. Examples are of Kellanved razing a city through magic, the Claws where many are highly proficient mage users and the mage cadres, as well as the squad mages. There were also in addition to Kellanved a number of High Mages present including Tayschrenn, Nightchill, Bellurdan and more. And that is not including the T'lan Imass with their Bonecasters. However at the time of GotM a lot of the mage cadres have been spent and there is a shortage of mages overall. The entire mentality towards Letherii enemies is disdain at the start, this changes dramatically once a real threat arises, and their military features the always amusing "bad cavalry" trope - remember the Bluerose failed to give the right stirrups to their conquerors, which is a huge deal for calvary Cardiac posted:How the gently caress did the peaceloving Jaghut get such warmongering halfbloods by mixing with humans. Cardiac posted:As well, did we ever get an explanation why Forkrul Assail was sleeping on the mountain top, I thought they were exterminated in TCG.
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Aug 20, 2014 14:29
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I haven't finished Assail but regarding the identity of Jethis His flashback soon after facing of the Bonewright stronlgy suggests him being Anomander. I mean, wasn't Hood slain with Dragnipur to get the dead into it so they could battle the legions of Chaos? In FoD we learn that it's T'riss that gives Anomander his white hair as a sign of "defiance" iirc, maybe him brining Mother Dark back and all could explain the hair? Other than Anomander couldn't it be Andarist? I may be confusing stuff, but don't both he and Jethiss have amber eyes? Andarist also "aged", but I think he also had white hair like his brother. But the circumstances of his death also include a battle (vs the Edur) and a gate (isn't the throne of Shadow also a gate?). I don't remember how he was burried but if he was given to the ocean (not burned/burried on Drift Avalii) it wouldn't be the first time that Mael brought someone back from the ocean (Brys & Shandalath Drukorlat).
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Aug 20, 2014 15:33
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zokie posted:I haven't finished Assail but regarding the identity of Jethis His flashback soon after facing of the Bonewright stronlgy suggests him being Anomander. I mean, wasn't Hood slain with Dragnipur to get the dead into it so they could battle the legions of Chaos? In FoD we learn that it's T'riss that gives Anomander his white hair as a sign of "defiance" iirc, maybe him brining Mother Dark back and all could explain the hair? quote:Other than Anomander couldn't it be Andarist? I may be confusing stuff, but don't both he and Jethiss have amber eyes? Just random points: Brys and Drukorkat weren't resurrected by Mael. Andarist ages (veeeeerrrry slowly like all non-Soletaken Andii) because he doesn't have the chaotic blood of T'iam in him. Habibi fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Aug 20, 2014 |
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Aug 20, 2014 16:03
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Just popping in to say that book 3 was loving amazing. And book 2. And that I can't wait to re-read book 1 knowing what I do now. And just that god drat, this is one of the best fantasy series I've read and I can't believe that I didn't hear about it until 3 years after it finished. I'm in chapter 2 of book 4 now, and Karsa is a loving boss. I never thought I'd be cheering for a character that's all "rape and murder bitches, whatever", but this is a fun as gently caress ride and I can't wait to see how it ties in. Or any of the other threads, for that matter. This has got to be the most detailed fantasy world ever written (well, maybe other than the one by that crazy guy who locked himself indoors for 30 years and nobody found his book until he was dead.) I was kind of worried, with the end of book 3, that the series was going to start getting too... highbrow? Like, just start being the stories of the ascendants and their games. And then Karsa pops up like a big middle finger to that idea, that mortals wrecking poo poo and saying gently caress words to gods is an integral part of this series and I'm so down for where this thing going. Probably just gonna duck out of this thread now for fear of spoilers. I'm a slow-rear end reader, so I've got like a year of these books ahead of me.
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Aug 20, 2014 16:39
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Kreega Bondola posted:Karsa is a loving boss. Yes he is and prepare to tire your arm out from fist-pumping so much.
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Aug 20, 2014 21:22
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Assail is probably the worst ICE book. The reasons are too many to list them all here, but I'll try to just name a few in no particular order: - The new POV characters are pointless. Editing them out would really have done the book a lot of good. I refer to the boat captain, the young pilot and Orman. Fisher was OK. - Jethiss. As you can probably tell I'm a big fan of Rake and I thought he had a really powerful and worthy sendoff. If Jethiss is Rake then ICE should not have been the one to cover his return. And an amnesiac returning to life? It's the worst trope ever, and doubly offending when ICE just used it with Tayschrenn a few books ago. - The big confrontation. There was none, except the fight against the ice maybe? Nothing to see here... Even the Forkrul Assail were boring and pointless. - The continent of Assail. When Lanas Tog showed up in MoI I felt awed that human tyrants could slay so many T'lan Imass. So it was all a lie... I wonder if that was the initial plan or just something that came up later. The truth was really disappointing. - The T'lan Imass. The Jaghut/T'lan Imass conflict has been done to death (see the pun here?) already. The Crippled God already showed Jaghut and T'lan working together. There was no need for another peace in this book. The tragedy of the T'lan was much better presented by SE. ICE is just retreading the same ground and he has a worse prose by far. - The Crimson Guard. They are almost non-characters. The reveal was not that surprising and apparently their vow is a better form of the T'lan vow as they can "return" at will. Skinner will probably be back the next book  Shimmer was a much better character in the last book, Bars was much better in Stonewielder.- Kyle. Maybe he was better? Hard to tell. I still don't understand why he came to Assail since he didn't even pass by his tribe (which were exterminated by the T'lan Imass offscreen). - The gold rush. The worst excuse for a convergence. The whole Letheri subplot also sucked. The negotiation with K'azz was supposed to be comical? - The prose. Pell-mell is ICE's turgid? Erikson writes really well, ICE is no more than adequate at best. - Inconsistencies. OK, just one, but at some point Kyle "remembers" how Jethiss summoned Kurald Galain when Coots fell. This is despite the fact that Kyle was not there at the time. Was that part meant to be from Fisher's POV? I feel an editor should really have caught that. - The whole plotline. As said in the spoilers above in more detail, it's pointless. If I have to think back out of all ICE's books I preferred Stonewielder. It had the most straightforward plot and it was engaging and competently written. This book reads like a travelogue for most of the time (as did the last one, but there at least the continent was more interesting and it had Kallor). By this point I dread the next ICE book (but I'll probably buy it anyway as I love the Malazan world). SE would better hurry with Fall of Light.
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Aug 20, 2014 22:39
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Anomandaris posted:- The Crimson Guard. They are almost non-characters. The reveal was not that surprising and apparently their vow is a better form of the T'lan vow as they can "return" at will. Yeah I figured it out in Stonewielder, I mean there's only so many things it could have been.
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Aug 21, 2014 00:26
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Baudin posted:The Letherii didn't have the competition that the Malazan had during the formation of the empire - the mage cadres are shown to be used more as a shield than an offensive tool, with a few notable exceptions the biggest exception being Pale of course. Remember that Beak held off a magic ritual heroically by himself - but at the start of the book he was a lowly cadre mage (low ranked and not relied upon much). I am pretty sure there is a comment somewhere in the books where it is said that Kellanved used magic to raze a city. He was an extremely proficient sorcerer, and was surrounded by many High Mages. You can't really use the events in the series to argue that the Malazan Empire was weak in magic, since it is stated already in GotM that the mage cadres had been massively depleted by all the fighting. This is also described in DG, where Kulp is the surviving member of the mage cadre. There is a lot of details missing on the formation of the Malazan Empire, but my impression was that the expansion was driven by superior organisation. Kellanved reorganized the army, navy, setup the Claws and Talons and it stands to reason that the same detail to organisation was used to setup working institutions for generating mage cadres. The Claws, as an example, consists to a large extent of highly proficient assassinmages. On the back story, I really want to know more about Dassem Ultor as the First Sword of the Empire and his relation with Hood. Baudin posted:Because Jaghut half breeds aren't bred with humans? Aren't they? Icarium is a Jhag ie half Jaghut, half human(?). But the Icebloods are not described as Jhags, are they? Anomandaris posted:Assail is probably the worst ICE book. The reasons are too many to list them all here, but I'll try to just name a few in no particular order: Pretty much my thoughts as well.
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Aug 21, 2014 14:03
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Cardiac posted:I am pretty sure there is a comment somewhere in the books where it is said that Kellanved used magic to raze a city. He was an extremely proficient sorcerer, and was surrounded by many High Mages. Nitpicks but Kellanved set up the Talon, Laseen set up the Claw, and likely she cannibalized mages which were available to Kellanved to do so. Icarium is considered a half-blood Jaghut/Thelomen Tobalkai and not Jaghut/Human, at least early in the series. There is also speculation later in the series that his mother may be Kilmandaros, making Icarium instead a half-Jaghut half-Azathanai. Xachariah fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 14:17
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Xachariah posted:Nitpicks but Kellanved set up the Talon, Laseen set up the Claw, and likely she cannibalized mages which were available to Kellanved to do so. Wasn't the Talons the creation of Toc the Elder? Also, prior to Kellanved going away with Dancer, the Claws existed so in all likelihood Kellanved used Laseen for setting up the Claws and was fully supportive of them. Kellanved doesn't seem like the person that would allow anyone to setup an organisation that would threaten his power. The Claw was instrumental during the occupation of Seven Cities, so it seems rather unlikely that Kellanved should allow an organisation he didn't trust to amass that power. As for the Claws ascendancy during Laseen, that is likely due to it being Laseens organisation. And the Talon/Claws rivalry is likely due to the classical infighting between intelligence organisations. As for Icarium, that sort of makes sense. He is after all pretty ancient and humans are pretty recent compared to Tellan Imass and Eresal.
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Aug 21, 2014 14:54
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Well you're both right. Dancer set up the Talon and Laseen set up the Claw but they existed concurrently, the Talon as external operatives while the Claw worked more like a secret police. Laseen had (most of) the Talon murdered when she took power.
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Aug 21, 2014 15:07
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Cardiac posted:Wasn't the Talons the creation of Toc the Elder? Talons were created by Dancer. Talons were internal secret police loyal to Dancer and Claw was external mage assassins loyal to Surly. Surly wiped out the Talon and instituted the Claw in their place in addition to their former jobs.
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Aug 21, 2014 15:13
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Back to Jethiss Andarist does have amber eyes, but I don't think we know how he's buried. It seems Cutter and Apsalar leave Drift Avalii before that happens. Didn't check if we are told once we get Nimanders POV. Regarding Anomanders hair, T'riss does say she will make his defiance visible (which I would think is his silver hair), but Mother Dark also hints that he got that from his mother.
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Aug 21, 2014 15:42
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Anomandaris posted:- The continent of Assail. When Lanas Tog showed up in MoI I felt awed that human tyrants could slay so many T'lan Imass. So it was all a lie... I wonder if that was the initial plan or just something that came up later. The truth was really disappointing. As to the first point, I agree 100%. That was such a letdown. "Human tyrants" were what was said in Memories of Ice by that T'lan Imass, then we get there and it's not humans at all? Why was it changed, or did the first Imass in MoI not understand what was doing the killing? Either way, it was a letdown. Maybe we just haven't seen all of the continent yet? I'm with you in the next point. I dont really want to read it, but I know drat well I will. I did enjoy Kyle's travel diary for a while, then he met back up with old pals and it got a lot dumber. For me the initial part of the book with the 4-boats all hanging out together and escaping the channel was interesting, and then they got on land and it just got boring again. Also: Who was it in this thread that had a huge theory about Assail and continents of ghosts that continue to get reanimated into armies that never are allowed to rest or something? That was an interesting read, and then we get the book about Assail and it's the most bland 'blah blah blah' poo poo ever.
Spermy Smurf fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 16:03
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Baudin posted:The Letherii didn't have the competition that the Malazan had during the formation of the empire Between the cadres of High Mages who are mostly dead or AWOL by the time we start the series, the Moranth munitions, the Kron T'lan Imass, the borderline ascendant First Sword, etc etc etc, I don't think you can argue that Lether had it easier when it came to competition. The Malazan empire was driven to rapid innovation for good reasons, but I am not sure they primarily revolved around a power imbalance. They exceeded Lether pretty early on in their formation, but continued to refine and improve at a ferocious pace.
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Aug 21, 2014 16:46
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Xachariah posted:Talons were created by Dancer. Talons were internal secret police loyal to Dancer and Claw was external mage assassins loyal to Surly. Surly wiped out the Talon and instituted the Claw in their place in addition to their former jobs. Thanks for repeating what I said; you're wrong about the respective purposes though
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Aug 21, 2014 16:46
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Spermy Smurf posted:Why was it changed, or did the first Imass in MoI not understand what was doing the killing? Either way, it was a letdown. Maybe we just haven't seen all of the continent yet? We saw everything as far as I understand. Silverfox muses at one point that Lanas Tog just lied. There are no human tyrants. Whether this was SE's intention when he wrote that or ICE just retconned it is anybody's guess. Probably the latter. Maybe he didn't want to go with the human tyrants path since Jacuruku was mostly that? Anyway it makes no sense that Lanas Tog's Imass spent hundreds (thousands?) of years just doing nothing. As written the Jaghut were no match for them since it was basically just one full-blooded matriarch and some weak descendants. The T'lan could have wiped the whole continent clean without asking for help from Silverfox, so why didn't they?
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Aug 21, 2014 17:28
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Opal posted:Thanks for repeating what I said; you're wrong about the respective purposes though I was writing the post while yours got posted, sorry for not being faster? EDIT: And I guess this wiki has them mixed up http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Claw Xachariah fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Aug 21, 2014 |
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Aug 21, 2014 17:30
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Anomandaris posted:We saw everything as far as I understand. Silverfox muses at one point that Lanas Tog just lied. There are no human tyrants. Whether this was SE's intention when he wrote that or ICE just retconned it is anybody's guess. Probably the latter. Maybe he didn't want to go with the human tyrants path since Jacuruku was mostly that? Anyway it makes no sense that Lanas Tog's Imass spent hundreds (thousands?) of years just doing nothing. As written the Jaghut were no match for them since it was basically just one full-blooded matriarch and some weak descendants. The T'lan could have wiped the whole continent clean without asking for help from Silverfox, so why didn't they? So there are 2 possibilities: 1)Lanas Tog lied, and was just the only T'lan that reached Assail and was just coming back for reinforcements so they could head there together and wipe the continent which from what we saw was mostly desolate and only had isolated tribes which would have been very easy to destroy with a few thousand I'mass? or the much more dumb and 'I hate ICE' thought of 2) ICE decided to write whatever the gently caress he felt like because he thought it would be interesting and none of it was what Erikson had hinted at (which was hinted at mysterious and cool).
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Aug 21, 2014 17:43
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Habibi posted:Between the cadres of High Mages who are mostly dead or AWOL by the time we start the series, the Moranth munitions, the Kron T'lan Imass, the borderline ascendant First Sword, etc etc etc, I don't think you can argue that Lether had it easier when it came to competition. Yeah, I'm rereading Midnight Tides right now and it's stated fairly regularly that the Letherii weren't as reliant on martial contest. They were all about setting up trade agreements, then changing the rules of said agreements or writing in obscure fine print and pushing their trade partners into eventual indebtedness and assimilation - very much a 'colonial' mindset; get the natives addicted to firewater, give them smallpox, et cetera until they are integrated in and/or dependent on your civilization. Plus, their military has the dual crutches to lean on of superior Letherii steel and the raw power of their elder magic.
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Aug 21, 2014 17:44
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Spermy Smurf posted:So there are 2 possibilities: Frankly it does not really matter since what we got was weak. This was the last continent of the world we hadn't seen. It had this built-up mystery surrounding it for more than 10 books. It was apparently the deadliest place in the world. And what we got was just a big let down. It's not that ICE does not know how to build interesting settings, since both Korel and Jacuruku were engaging. I can't really get how he hosed this one up.
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Aug 21, 2014 18:07
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ChickenWing posted:Yeah, I'm rereading Midnight Tides right now and it's stated fairly regularly that the Letherii weren't as reliant on martial contest. They were all about setting up trade agreements, then changing the rules of said agreements or writing in obscure fine print and pushing their trade partners into eventual indebtedness and assimilation - very much a 'colonial' mindset; get the natives addicted to firewater, give them smallpox, et cetera until they are integrated in and/or dependent on your civilization. Plus, their military has the dual crutches to lean on of superior Letherii steel and the raw power of their elder magic. I would say 'subjugated' rather than integrated, and that that difference was one of the things that drove the superior evolution of the Malazan empire and military (both of which did legitimately integrate the people they conquered). In this, if the Letheri military was reminiscent of Rome in that it heavily featured subjugated peoples but made them fight like Romans), the Malaz military was reminiscent of even more ancient Persia in that it integrated groups of conquered people into its armed forces by taking advantage of their ability to fight in the manner they were best at / specialized at / had done all their lives.
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Aug 21, 2014 18:19
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