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WickedHate posted:Captain America and the Great Society. Captain America and Superman(because it's hinted that the rest of the Great Society, or the Batman-alike at the very least had already committed world-murdering of some sort) SirDan3k posted:They chose inaction and so would he. The Great Society's plan was to hope everything works out real hard, it was cripplingly naive. The Great Society never chose inaction- they stopped 2 separate incursions with at least one case of genocide and were most definitely willing to do it again until they discovered that the Earth they were about to zap was full of people. They were already a step ahead of the Illuminati in terms of the emotional progression of dealing with incursions. Seriously it's the same poo poo as the Illuminati except they have Superman on their team so they're willing to be more hopeful about the situation because that's how Superman is vs. Tony Stark: weapons dealer. The main difference between Cap and the Great Society is that the Great Society still let the problem be closed off in terms of approaching a solution for it. They're ultimately still a mirror to the Illuminati, no matter how well-intentioned and heroic they meant to be. Cap very clearly wanted to open this up to everyone to see if they could work a solution and was never given the chance. Who knows what the Great Society would have done because surprise: they were never given a chance because once again the members of the Illuminati attacked first. It's the whole "problems cannot be solved by the same type of mindset that creates them" theme. There's a reason that the identified theme of New Avengers is "death" and everything that every single group in the New Avengers has done to attempt to solve the problem has been related to that concept. That the whole book has a tone of "might makes right in the long run, regardless of the small ideals held by the small group that runs the world because the 'reality' of the universe is cruel and destructive". I wonder if the plotting of New Avengers generally being simpler to follow and more 'grounded' conceptually vs. Cap's Avengers being harder to follow/more obtuse and more 'out there' is related to that but I feel like that might just be pretty high hopes.
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Aug 23, 2014 03:33
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Is there going to be another New Avengers issue before the time line jump of 8 months? Because I know Avengers 34 is the last issue before the jump.
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Aug 23, 2014 05:51
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I'm surprised that Hickman would write Amadeus Cho as ever being in danger from heroes coming to punch him. He's the CEO of the Olympus Group, he thinks faster than light, he throws down with deities. You don't just fly up and hit him.
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Aug 23, 2014 06:08
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Fereydun posted:so they're willing to be more hopeful about the situation because that's how Superman is vs. Tony Stark: weapons dealer. Can I just say that Tony Stark having the "build some weapons, whoops now someone awful has them" thing happen to him again is hilarious? Congrats dude, you built a big room full of planetkiller bombs and now The Mad Titan Thanos Who Loves Death So Much He Wants To Marry It, Like For Real has them.
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Aug 23, 2014 07:50
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wiegieman posted:I'm surprised that Hickman would write Amadeus Cho as ever being in danger from heroes coming to punch him. He's the CEO of the Olympus Group, he thinks faster than light, he throws down with deities. You don't just fly up and hit him. I'm inclined to think it's some alternate universe thing because why are Hawkeye and Captain Marvel wearing grey costumes? Dammit Who? posted:Can I just say that Tony Stark having the "build some weapons, whoops now someone awful has them" thing happen to him again is hilarious? Congrats dude, you built a big room full of planetkiller bombs and now The Mad Titan Thanos Who Loves Death So Much He Wants To Marry It, Like For Real has them. It's also funny putting your prison right next to your storeroom for said WMDs.
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Aug 23, 2014 09:13
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PaybackJack posted:I'm inclined to think it's some alternate universe thing because why are Hawkeye and Captain Marvel wearing grey costumes? I think it's an alt universe too, we've seen a trend across the multiverse of illuminatis fighting against incursions maybe it will also be a trend for teams of Avengers to oppose them in what they're doing.
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Aug 23, 2014 10:58
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wiegieman posted:I'm surprised that Hickman would write Amadeus Cho as ever being in danger from heroes coming to punch him. He's the CEO of the Olympus Group, he thinks faster than light, he throws down with deities. You don't just fly up and hit him. They are the Avengers, they've had multiple deities on their team at the same time. They don't give a gently caress. At any given moment they've also had 3 or 4 people on their team smarter than him too. And, again, they are the Avengers. There isn't a problem they aren't going to try and solve by punching something in the face.
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Aug 23, 2014 15:25
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PelvicNerve posted:Rereading the first few issues, Cap called everything. Now that he remembers, I'm curious to see how he'll act in the face of incursions. I ended up rereading the first couple of issues too and Namor's characterization follows the attitude he's been showing in NA recently pretty much exactly- he's extremely cynical about everything at hand and continually jumps to conclusions based on that cynicism. The dude is always the first to give up based on the hopelessness of the situation. After Cap pushes back a universe with the Infinity Gauntlet and it breaks, the first thing Namor does is assume it's Cap's fault and start beating the poo poo out of him. Afterwards, the rest of the Illuminati all continue to believe that and work from there to justify planet-killing and brainwashing Cap. Like on the last page he straight up tells them that they're going to convince themselves to build weapons of mass destruction because it's the only choice they believe they've got before they hit him with the mind-eraser spell. In the first page of the issue after they've already jumped to the point of having finished building the bombs and began working on other weapons. The payoff for the last couple of issues has really been building up from the start. New Avengers owns.  Look at all that dang foreshadowing! Also I don't think there's going to be such a cop-out like that when it comes to allowing the Avengers to tackle the problem from an alternate side. At least, I hope not- it really is too convenient and clean while not really making sense thematically. My guess is that the Cabal 'buying time' will ultimately accelerate the problem to the tipping point and then the Avengers will asspull some solution from that verge of annihilation. Fereydun fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Aug 23, 2014 |
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Aug 23, 2014 15:46
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Fereydun posted:Captain America and Superman(because it's hinted that the rest of the Great Society, or the Batman-alike at the very least had already committed world-murdering of some sort).
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Aug 23, 2014 20:40
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FilthyImp posted:I thought they had used the 'infinity glass' (or whatever their cosmic gems equivalent was) to shift an earth out of alignment, then Norn used two of his alterlives to prevent the incursion we see. Wasn't sure if they had actually killed any Earth's at that point, and while Not-Batman was up for a fight, Not-Superman was trying to have everyone come together and solve the problem before a giant death match?? This makes me wonder if one of the Futures that the Norn gave up was one where he lived after confronting the Illuminati.
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Aug 23, 2014 21:20
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:I think it's important to note when this is happening. They were forced to do something horrible. They "survived" but were utterly defeated by their actions and before they can even begin coming to terms with it another incursion begins. If they have had a day or two to think about it maybe they would come up with something. But no, the incursion game forced them to do something horrible and then proceeded to kick them while they were down in the ground. They've been dealing with this with the idea that this is a no-win scenario. It's been, what, half a dozen incursions and they're not anywhere close to figuring them let. gently caress, they still don't know ANYTHING outside of the main players. Their big mistake was keeping this to themselves because ever since Wakanda lost those kids this has been eroding them little by little. We saw their breaking point. We saw them lose hope. Maybe the Cabal are the ebony kings.
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Aug 23, 2014 21:25
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FilthyImp posted:I thought they had used the 'infinity glass' (or whatever their cosmic gems equivalent was) to shift an earth out of alignment, then Norn used two of his alterlives to prevent the incursion we see. Wasn't sure if they had actually killed any Earth's at that point, and while Not-Batman was up for a fight, Not-Superman was trying to have everyone come together and solve the problem before a giant death match?? Yeah, that's what made the Great Society special in the first place. T'Challa (or Tony or whoever I forget) said he'd been watching worlds through the Bridge for days but things always ended the same but then they saw the Great Society go and shift an earth without killing it and that's what made everyone so hesitant about fighting them, because they were provably good guys.
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Aug 23, 2014 21:36
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FilthyImp posted:I thought they had used the 'infinity glass' (or whatever their cosmic gems equivalent was) to shift an earth out of alignment, then Norn used two of his alterlives to prevent the incursion we see. Wasn't sure if they had actually killed any Earth's at that point, and while Not-Batman was up for a fight, Not-Superman was trying to have everyone come together and solve the problem before a giant death match?? They dealt with a third incursion and given the response, I'm guessing they were forced to do a bad thing. 
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Aug 23, 2014 21:57
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TwoPair posted:Yeah, that's what made the Great Society special in the first place. T'Challa (or Tony or whoever I forget) said he'd been watching worlds through the Bridge for days but things always ended the same but then they saw the Great Society go and shift an earth without killing it and that's what made everyone so hesitant about fighting them, because they were provably good guys. They most certainly were good guys, but Namor pushed it into a fight and Strange killed them.
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Aug 23, 2014 21:59
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I may have missed something but can anyone tell me what Reed and Tony were talking about in issue 8 of New Avengers? They're talking together any Tony says he's got a plan to do something pro-active and takes Reed off somewhere, you see them later having met with someone. Reed says "he'll do the job well, as well as either of us would... he'll have 3 months". There's a very small number of people that "he" could be so I would assume Doom but I have no idea who/what they're talking about.
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Aug 23, 2014 22:14
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We haven't seen the pay off from that conversation yet.
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Aug 23, 2014 22:20
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:They dealt with a third incursion and given the response, I'm guessing they were forced to do a bad thing. What I took away from that is it is similar to Dr. Strange in issue 3 or so where he carries the Blood Bible. He describes his world destroying solution as "Unspeakable, and it will remain so."
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Aug 24, 2014 04:17
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I hope they give us a reason to have hank and hulk on the team soon. They seem to just kind of stand around.
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Aug 24, 2014 05:02
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Nevvy Z posted:I hope they give us a reason to have hank and hulk on the team soon. They seem to just kind of stand around. Did you miss the issue(can't remember if it was Avengers or New Avengers) where Bruce figures it out and nearly kills Tony? Hank, yeah, mostly useless, but he's meant to be a substitute for Xavier. It would have been so much better if it was Cyclops instead, but, well, he's the whole reason Xavier needs a substitute...which seriously sucks. Cyclops is basically a "king who will go to extreme lengths their people" like Black Bolt, Namor, and Black Panther and would fit in so much better. Honestly, I think Hickman should have just had it be Cyclops anyway and maybe have a few panels at the start where Cap complains.
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Aug 24, 2014 05:08
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Black Swan states that the Beasts of the multiverse are well-known for the inconceivable (to the Black Swans) '8th way' of dealing with incursions by moving everyone off the planet and blowing it up to temporarily escape the threat of Incursions. I think that will probably come into play somehow- there's been very tight plotting from the very start and both Hank and Hulk are specific additions to the roster for the story. edit: Also remember that the Illuminati's understanding of the Incursions comes from the Black Swan herself and she's kinda part of the problem by a pretty significant amount! Fereydun fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Aug 24, 2014 |
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Aug 24, 2014 05:15
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A lot goes on under the hood with all that super science McCoy probably helps with. What would Summers do besides stand around at the critical moment and mumble "welp, maybe if I was still possessed by the Phoenix..." That and he's really busy with all his other poo poo. Granted, the others are too but have better excuses as to why they're able to participate.
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Aug 24, 2014 05:18
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Starsnostars posted:We haven't seen the pay off from that conversation yet.
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Aug 24, 2014 05:25
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Bell_ posted:A lot goes on under the hood with all that super science McCoy probably helps with. What would Summers do besides stand around at the critical moment and mumble "welp, maybe if I was still possessed by the Phoenix..." He would yell "Get off my lawn" and torch the alternate Earth.
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Aug 24, 2014 05:36
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WickedHate posted:Did you miss the issue(can't remember if it was Avengers or New Avengers) where Bruce figures it out and nearly kills Tony? No. But that was a decision made by the author. Now Bruce is on the team and not doing anything of note. Hank at least is sort of legacy. If Bruce had never figured it out we wouldn't be saying "I think Bruce would have figured it out" Speaking of which, really surprised not to see Doom in the Cabal.
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Aug 24, 2014 05:48
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Bell_ posted:A lot goes on under the hood with all that super science McCoy probably helps with. What would Summers do besides stand around at the critical moment and mumble "welp, maybe if I was still possessed by the Phoenix..." Cyclops on a team with Cap (even if Cap was just around for a little while) while he was still being kinda hunted by SHIELD would have been hilarious. Also, oh man now I really want the Illuminati to hit an incursion where the other side is being protected by a Phoenix powered Jean.
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Aug 24, 2014 06:03
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Personally I'm really curious to know more of the history of the Black Swans and why a monochromatic Emma Frost is counted as one of their members.
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Aug 24, 2014 06:11
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Cyclops on a team with Cap (even if Cap was just around for a little while) while he was still being kinda hunted by SHIELD would have been hilarious. It'd get chumped like it should have been in AVX. "Oh no the Phonix is rampaging" "Send the b team, it's poker night."
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Aug 24, 2014 06:24
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Have they explained why they can't use the future technology they used in regular avengers to make the 'rogue planet' occupy the same space as the earth to have the two incursioning earths occupy the same space?
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Aug 24, 2014 07:13
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Seldom Posts posted:Have they explained why they can't use the future technology they used in regular avengers to make the 'rogue planet' occupy the same space as the earth to have the two incursioning earths occupy the same space? No but it'd probably hold the same effect as moving the earths, you are still eventually destroyed when the multiverse collapses and stranded in your universe unable to stop the incursions from do so, yadda yadda
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Aug 24, 2014 07:17
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The Phoenix is another one of those cosmic entities that seems to just be a giant mystery in terms of dealing with incursions. Like, it's got no problem blasting worlds but it's also representative of the cycle of life and death so the multiverse going totally bonkers could gently caress with it? Besides that, The Great Society probably represented that type of problem when it came to power disparity between the Illuminati and whoever was on the other side of the Earth, especially considering that they went into the fight against the Illuminati already worn down pretty badly from their encounter with the Sidera Maris. The dialogue in the issues they were introduced in suggests that they'd dealt with pretty much every single multiversal threat that has been mentioned by the Black Swan and come out ahead. The same dudes who had been shown to effortlessly wipe out different variations of the Illuminati shown in other universes that had much heavier hitters on 'em. The Black Swans are definitely one of the most interesting things 'cuz of how much mystery surrounds them. Pretty much all that's known is that they exist outside of the multiverse while serving to further it's destruction. The flashback issue to Black Swan's past has more mysterious stuff in it like her returning to the exact instant she left as a child to extract something from her brother's body and the flickering existence of her ritualistically sacrificing someone covered up with a bunch of other Swans. Man, why is this so short? There's so dang much to explore!
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Aug 24, 2014 07:18
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SirDan3k posted:It'd get chumped like it should have been in AVX. "Oh no the Phonix is rampaging" "Send the b team, it's poker night." The Avengers B team is vastly more powerful than the A team anyway. I've been reading Hickman's FF and when the Annihilation Wave was threatening to breach the portal and flood the Earth, who shows up with Cap, Thor and Iron Man? Hawkeye and Wolverine. Thanks guys but I think you can sit this one out. Actually Cap we all took the same ride over here, so maybe you can fly them back in the Quinjet. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Aug 24, 2014 |
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Aug 24, 2014 07:28
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Nevvy Z posted:Speaking of which, really surprised not to see Doom in the Cabal. Ever since Dark Reign, Doom has a policy against joining cabals. Alliances, Future Foundations, Team-Ups, whatever, but just don't try to get the guy on a Cabal.
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Aug 24, 2014 07:43
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hope and vaseline posted:Personally I'm really curious to know more of the history of the Black Swans and why a monochromatic Emma Frost is counted as one of their members. I'm getting the feeling that a lot of the big bads have analogues on our Avengers World/Machine/Teams. We've already seen that MapMakers are multiversal versions of the superadaptiods, that Norn/Strange are able to tap into the Black Priest helmets and draw on their magics, there's the afforementioned Emma Frost being listed among the Swans... Could be some kind of 'the very power that protects the universe ultimately corrupts and dooms us all' thing. Or maybe it's a kind of reflection of how poorly it could go if the heroes weren't upstanding folks.
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Aug 24, 2014 07:46
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Hm, Strange isnt on the Cabal or in the Illuminati. Wonder what he's up to?
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Aug 24, 2014 08:28
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Boogaleeboo posted:Hey Reed, you checked in on your son? Your functionally omnipotent son?
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Aug 24, 2014 09:49
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SynthOrange posted:Hm, Strange isnt on the Cabal or in the Illuminati. Wonder what he's up to? Getting judged by his manservant. Wong throwin' mad shade as of late.
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Aug 24, 2014 18:47
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Once Strange has healed from that sick burn, he'll probably become a Black Priest or something. How far from it can he really be now that he's Cthulhued the gently caress out of the Justice League? I like the idea that the whole process, the "Wheel" is a transformative, self-sustaining system, that the ones exposed to it eventually die or become its agents. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Ebony Kings were Cabals / Illuminati who took its logic all the way. Iggles posted:Has anyone seen Franklin and Rabum Alal in the same room together? It turns out it's just Franklin Franklin and Valeria playing "the world ends" to prove their dad is kind of poo poo.
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Aug 24, 2014 19:52
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PelvicNerve posted:I like the idea that the whole process, the "Wheel" is a transformative, self-sustaining system, that the ones exposed to it eventually die or become its agents. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Ebony Kings were Cabals / Illuminati who took its logic all the way. And then its a short trip to bombing the gently caress out of a reality to project the multiverse.
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Aug 24, 2014 21:33
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I wouldn't be surprised if Strange left to take some kind of action of his own. If he was looking at the Black Priest Mask I wonder if he opted to try to take them out himself. And then only to find they'd be a reflection of him.
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Aug 25, 2014 05:16
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Yeah I'm just surprised he's moping about it at all considering he unleashed Cthulhu to eat an entire alternate Earth, and that he didnt get an invite to the Cabal.
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Aug 25, 2014 08:12
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