Michael Brown Shooting: No probable cause exists to file any charges

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Michael Brown Shooting: No probable cause exists to file any charges

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BottledBodhisvata: Jul 26, 2013; by Lowtax

Woozy posted:

Why can't I invoke freedom of speech in order to advocate murdering protesters

Well, people already are. It's one thing is Jim Bob from accounting thinks the protests should be violently put down, he's actually--or at least, he should be able to--express that all he wants. It's a bit different if Officer Peabody, a member of the police force interacting with the protesters, thinks that they should be violently put down, as that demonstrates the exact attitude that led to the protests in the first place.

Police need to be held to a higher standard.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:09

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:45

Sir Tonk: Apr 18, 2006; Young Orc

Pretty sure freedom of speech doesn't prevent an employer from firing you if you're yelling about how much you hate Mexicans at work, although I could be wrong, given the behavior or some staff in Texas restaurants.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:26

CharlestheHammer: Jun 26, 2011; YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

BottledBodhisvata posted:

Well, people already are. It's one thing is Jim Bob from accounting thinks the protests should be violently put down, he's actually--or at least, he should be able to--express that all he wants. It's a bit different if Officer Peabody, a member of the police force interacting with the protesters, thinks that they should be violently put down, as that demonstrates the exact attitude that led to the protests in the first place.

Police need to be held to a higher standard.

Well in theory Jim Bob can be fired too, he might not be but its fully within their rights to do so.

Sir Tonk posted:

Pretty sure freedom of speech doesn't prevent an employer from firing you if you're yelling about how much you hate Mexicans at work, although I could be wrong, given the behavior or some staff in Texas restaurants.

You don't even have to be at work. If you do it in a public place (mostly twitter) they can fire your rear end.

CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Aug 23, 2014

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:33

BottledBodhisvata: Jul 26, 2013; by Lowtax

Sir Tonk posted:

Pretty sure freedom of speech doesn't prevent an employer from firing you if you're yelling about how much you hate Mexicans at work, although I could be wrong, given the behavior or some staff in Texas restaurants.

AT work, possibly. I've gotten in sharp trouble for this discussion before, but if you're being openly racist in the workplace and thus creating a hostile work environment, that's absolutely fireable. Posting that you hate Mexicans on your Facebook page doesn't, in my mind, warrant a firable offense. It is not the business of your employer what you say when you aren't on the clock.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:33

Ergo Propter Hog: Jul 21, 2014

BottledBodhisvata posted:

AT work, possibly. I've gotten in sharp trouble for this discussion before, but if you're being openly racist in the workplace and thus creating a hostile work environment, that's absolutely fireable. Posting that you hate Mexicans on your Facebook page doesn't, in my mind, warrant a firable offense. It is not the business of your employer what you say when you aren't on the clock.

But if someone sees that, and either sees your occupation on your facebook page or linkedin or something, it reflects poorly on company/workplace XYZ, and could have a negative impact on business for that place.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:40

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Vincent Van Goat posted:

But if someone sees that, and either sees your occupation on your facebook page or linkedin or something, it reflects poorly on company/workplace XYZ, and could have a negative impact on business for that place.

Correct, happens all the time. Remember, the 1st amendment only applies to the government.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:43

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

If you're a police officer and you post about how much you hate Mexicans on your facebook outside of work, the issue isn't that it reflects poorly on the police department (although it obviously does) as much as it is that you yourself have lost the public's trust.

Being exposed as a racist as a police officer, even if it's on your own time, affects your ability to do your job, because you're no longer a credible witness whenever you arrest someone.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:46

BottledBodhisvata: Jul 26, 2013; by Lowtax

Trabisnikof posted:

Correct, happens all the time. Remember, the 1st amendment only applies to the government.

So, can your employer be choosy about any OTHER Amendments? Like, how about the 4th Amendment? Are we limiting the bill of rights--which is a contract of inalienable rights guaranteed to the citizenry--only to the purview of government, while excluding that same responsibility and respect from the private work force?

Vincent Van Goat posted:

But if someone sees that, and either sees your occupation on your facebook page or linkedin or something, it reflects poorly on company/workplace XYZ, and could have a negative impact on business for that place.

I have always felt this a weird justification. I'm not representing my work (generally speaking, there are always exceptions) when I'm not at my workplace. If I posted on Facebook that I find the police to be reprehensible bullies and tyrants who take liberties with my liberty, and my boss--whose daddy is a cop--sees that and fires me for it, is that justified? Don't you see that perhaps there needs to be something of a middle ground? If you can be fired for voicing an opinion, who is to stop you from being fired from voicing an opinion that we don't find as reprehensible as racism? What if you post an off-color joke about women on your Facebook, and get fired for it? Is that justified?

Are you not allowed to have your own thoughts and views if your employer tells you not to? That seems absolutely...well, to use the term, unAmerican. Am I expected to be on the clock 24 hours a day, even if I'm only paid for 8?

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:49

Franks Happy Place: Mar 15, 2011; It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dank of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by weed alone I set my mind in motion.

For those of you who didn't watch that video of the cop's rant posted a few pages ago, here is an article recapping some of the lovely quotes:

Talking Points Memo posted:

A St. Louis County police officer who had worked on crowd control in Ferguson, Mo., has been suspended after an online rant surfaced in which he disparaged a variety of groups, from LGBT people to Muslims to victims of domestic violence.

The officer, Dan Page, a 35-year veteran, also described himself as "a killer," according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. CNN reported that the video appeared to have been taken in April at an event for Oath Keepers, the right-wing law enforcement group that is aligned with the Patriot movement.

"I'm into diversity. I kill everybody, I don't care," Page said, per the Post-Dispatch. He also referred to President Barack Obama as an "undocumented president" and warned the audience that the government wanted to place their children in indoctrination camps.

"I personally believe in Jesus Christ as my lord savior, but I'm also a killer. I’ve killed a lot. And if I need to, I'll kill a whole bunch more," Page said. "If you don't want to get killed, don't show up in front of me, it's that simple. I have no problem with it. God did not raise me to be a coward."

Those comments in particular disturbed St. Louis County police chief Jon Belmar, he told the newspaper.

“With the comments on killing, that was obviously something that deeply disturbed me immediately,” Belmar said.

Page also had some choice words for victims of domestic violence (“Don’t be wasting cops’ time. Just shoot each other and get it over with") and Muslims ("Passive until they gain parity with you or they exceed you in numbers and they will kill you") and LGBT people (describing their lifestyle as "sodomy").

He also expressed disdain for hate crime legislation.

“We have no business passing hate crime laws," he said, "because we're setting aside a group of people special.”

The full one-hour video, via the Post-Dispatch, is below.

Pig manages to miss literally the only important message of the Bible he claims to love.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:49

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

BottledBodhisvata posted:

So, can your employer be choosy about any OTHER Amendments? Like, how about the 4th Amendment? Are we limiting the bill of rights--which is a contract of inalienable rights guaranteed to the citizenry--only to the purview of government, while excluding that same responsibility and respect from the private work force?

[Insert Second Amendment retort here].

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:54

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

BottledBodhisvata posted:

So, can your employer be choosy about any OTHER Amendments? Like, how about the 4th Amendment? Are we limiting the bill of rights--which is a contract of inalienable rights guaranteed to the citizenry--only to the purview of government, while excluding that same responsibility and respect from the private work force?

That's literally how America works. Remember, that the Bill of Rights didn't even apply to state governments until the 14th amendment.

Also you're mixing up the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 16:58

BottledBodhisvata: Jul 26, 2013; by Lowtax

Trabisnikof posted:

That's literally how America works. Remember, that the Bill of Rights didn't even apply to state governments until the 14th amendment.

Doesn't that seem like a really, really bad thing, and not something we should idly tolerate? Like, surely there's a compromise to be made--I'm well and fine with protocols about behavior within the workplace, especially in regards to sexual harassment and intolerance towards fellow workers, this affects the overall productivity of the whole place. But once you're out the doors, how much power should your employer really have over you?

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:00

CharlestheHammer: Jun 26, 2011; YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

BottledBodhisvata posted:

So, can your employer be choosy about any OTHER Amendments? Like, how about the 4th Amendment? Are we limiting the bill of rights--which is a contract of inalienable rights guaranteed to the citizenry--only to the purview of government, while excluding that same responsibility and respect from the private work force?

Basically yeah, the constitution was never really meant to have any effect on on private enterprise. Its a solely government thing. With some exceptions as time has passed.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:07

bobtheconqueror: May 10, 2005

BottledBodhisvata posted:

Doesn't that seem like a really, really bad thing, and not something we should idly tolerate? Like, surely there's a compromise to be made--I'm well and fine with protocols about behavior within the workplace, especially in regards to sexual harassment and intolerance towards fellow workers, this affects the overall productivity of the whole place. But once you're out the doors, how much power should your employer really have over you?

I think that's what unemployment insurance is intended for. Basically, in most states, your employer can fire you for any reason, at any time, just like you can quit for any reason, at any time, but if it's really just a poo poo reason, you get unemployment insurance while looking for another job.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:07

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

BottledBodhisvata posted:

Doesn't that seem like a really, really bad thing, and not something we should idly tolerate? Like, surely there's a compromise to be made--I'm well and fine with protocols about behavior within the workplace, especially in regards to sexual harassment and intolerance towards fellow workers, this affects the overall productivity of the whole place. But once you're out the doors, how much power should your employer really have over you?

That's why we have laws that restrict what employers can do. The Bill of Rights restricts what laws the government can make.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:08

PupsOfWar: Dec 6, 2013

Franks Happy Place posted:

For those of you who didn't watch that video of the cop's rant posted a few pages ago, here is an article recapping some of the lovely quotes:

regardless of whether the department can fire a guy for being racist, I expect they can definitely fire a guy for stating that he enjoys cavalierly murdering people.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:13

Murderion: Oct 4, 2009; 2019. New York is in ruins. The global economy is spiralling. Cyborgs rule over poisoned wastes.

The only time that's left is
FUN TIME

Sorry to post the Graun, but apparently Ferg's ex-mayor is a little bit racist.

quote:

Ferguson's white Republican mayor, James Knowles, is clear: he will tell anyone who listens that there is no racial divide in the town, which has been hit by a fortnight of protest over the killing of a young African American, Michael Brown, by a white policeman.

Knowles's predecessor, Brian Fletcher, has a different take. "Sure we're segregated. Most cities are. People want to be with people that look like them, think like them, talk like them. It's human nature. It doesn't mean it's bad," he said. "A lot of communities in the United States are segregated by colour, by economic power, by education. You know the term 'the other side of the tracks'? It's the truth. It's been that way, it is that way and will be that way."

...

"This is not us. We don't recognise it. It's not the community we know," Knowles told a public meeting. The tensions were not racial, he said, but economic. And the government was to blame. "When you jam people into low-income housing in one area and you wonder why there are social issues, there's no surprise to that. It's been done to us," he said.

...

Fletcher, the former mayor, was among leading citizens who called a public meeting at a Baptist church to talk about the crisis. He told the audience: "I'm like a lot of African Americans in reality. I grew up in poverty. I can relate a little bit to what it is to struggle in life."

The meeting was intended to consider ways to bridge divides but, while the church was close to full, fewer than a dozen black people attended. Fletcher struggled to explain why. "I don't have an answer. They're welcome. It's not uncommon in the community for African Americans not to be involved. Perhaps their struggle is just surviving the day, feeding their family," he said. But black people on the streets of Ferguson said they didn't know about the meeting because almost no effort had been made to communicate with them.

White people at the meeting lined up to offer suggestions, from how to "meet someone who's different from us" to programmes to help people "rise and become part of the community". But at times it felt as if the participants were stumbling in the dark looking for answers without knowing the question.

No one in the church mentioned the conduct of the police � the issue at the forefront in much of the rest of Ferguson � until one of the few black men in the audience, Byron Conley, brought it up. "I didn't see our police officers coming out to talk to the kids. I'm asking every officer to come to my street and just say 'hi' to us," he said. Conley said he invited police officers to barbecues but they never came, which surprised white members of the audience who said they regularly turn up to theirs.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:13

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Trabisnikof posted:

Correct, happens all the time. Remember, the 1st amendment only applies to the government.

Also, unlike the 5th, where there is an argument to be made for not firing people, firing an employee for speaking, even as a member of the government, isn't a violation of the first amendment.

The first amendment doesn't prevent you from suffering the consequences of your stupid speech. It just means the government can't make you shut up, can't take away your platforms, etc. and so on. If you're a newspaper posting stuff the government doesn't like, it's perfectly okay for them to stop buying your newspaper for their offices and get another one instead. If you're a police officer going off about how bad you want to kill black people, it should be perfectly acceptable for the government to stop purchasing your services.

If you start advocating selling state secrets to the chinese, you're going to lose your top secret clearance. If you start advocating killing protestors, you should lose your job dealing with protestors. It's speech that is entirely relevant to the job you're doing and why you shouldn't be doing it, and there's no obligation for the government to continue employing people when they acquire information that indicates they are not fit for their job. (See: All the court cases over this I quoted in my last post)

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:21

Gyges: Aug 4, 2004; NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

PupsOfWar posted:

regardless of whether the department can fire a guy for being racist, I expect they can definitely fire a guy for stating that he enjoys cavalierly murdering people.

So you support infringing on religion. Jesus is telling this man to kill those who show up in front of him, it's not like Satan is telling him things via his dog.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:29

PupsOfWar: Dec 6, 2013

Gyges posted:

So you support infringing on religion. Jesus is telling this man to kill those who show up in front of him, it's not like Satan is telling him things via his dog.

hey man the entire white race has just been buying indulgences since the mid 1600s

we don't take kindly to that 'round these parts of protestant-land

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:41

Damiya: Jul 3, 2012

Nick Valencia @CNNValencia
Supporters for Officer Darren Wilson line a sidewalk in St. Louis. #Ferguson #FergusonShooting #CNN

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:47

Broken Loose: Dec 25, 2002; PROGRAM
A > - - - LR > > - - LL > - - -

Damiya posted:

Nick Valencia @CNNValencia
Supporters for Officer Darren Wilson line a sidewalk in St. Louis. #Ferguson #FergusonShooting #CNN

there is no ironicat big enough

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:49

Rorac: Aug 19, 2011

Franks Happy Place posted:

For those of you who didn't watch that video of the cop's rant posted a few pages ago, here is an article recapping some of the lovely quotes:

Pig manages to miss literally the only important message of the Bible he claims to love.

I would really like to see him unarmed and staring down the barrel of a gun.

Not that I want him to die; he's a piece of poo poo that needs to be separated from society for the sake of society, but all I really want is to see if he turns into a sniveling coward when he's helpless and staring death in the face.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:52

Ergo Propter Hog: Jul 21, 2014

Damiya posted:

Nick Valencia @CNNValencia
Supporters for Officer Darren Wilson line a sidewalk in St. Louis. #Ferguson #FergusonShooting #CNN

I wonder if they're going to be gassed or shot at with rubber bullets.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 17:59

Delsaber: Oct 1, 2013; This may or may not be correct.

Damiya posted:

Nick Valencia @CNNValencia
Supporters for Officer Darren Wilson line a sidewalk in St. Louis. #Ferguson #FergusonShooting #CNN

Well, at least they picked a good spot. Barney's Sports Pub is right there to fill all their post-protest needs.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 18:05

Damiya: Jul 3, 2012

quote:

Alice Speri @alicesperi
Pro-Darren Wilson rally, bashing the media for biased coverage. Speaker won't give her name, saying instead "I am Darren Wilson" #Ferguson

What is this i don't even

quote:

Alice Speri @alicesperi
Speaker: Media needs to "earn respect back" from Darren Wilson's supporters #Ferguson

quote:

Ryan Devereaux @rdevro
At Barney's Sports Pub where an almost entirely white crowd has gathered to show support for Officer Darren Wilson

Damiya fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Aug 23, 2014

# ? Aug 23, 2014 18:11

EvilHawk: Sep 15, 2009; LIVARPOOL!

Klopp's 13pts clear thanks to video ref

Damiya posted:

Nick Valencia @CNNValencia
Supporters for Officer Darren Wilson line a sidewalk in St. Louis. #Ferguson #FergusonShooting #CNN

That "innocent until proven guilty" line is so loving amazing. They have literally no concept of irony.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 18:11

Ergo Propter Hog: Jul 21, 2014

No, you see, Wilson is innocent because he says so. Whereas Mike Brown is guilty because he's he committed _strong-Armed robbery, and was a mma level thug, hyped up on PCP. Eye-witnesses? Those don't matter.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 18:21

Sir Tonk: Apr 18, 2006; Young Orc

Look, if we admit that the police are capable of evil then the whole thing falls apart. A few unarmed minorities being killed is a necessary part of a modern society. :shepface:

# ? Aug 23, 2014 18:47

Damiya: Jul 3, 2012

Sir Tonk posted:

Look, if we admit that the police are capable of evil then the whole thing falls apart. A few unarmed minorities being killed is a necessary part of a modern society.

Yea and if they get uppity well the police will deal with them appropriately.

After all, as the Wilson folks said:

quote:

Ryan Devereaux @rdevro

Overheard at the Wilson rally: "No tear gas needed here" -- followed by laughter

# ? Aug 23, 2014 18:48

SectumSempra: Jun 22, 2011; Bi-Han now we've got Bad Blood

Reading this all is gross,
reading this as a black person is grosser for some reason, but depressingly not surprising.

It's like being in class with the guy who shouts strawman arguments that you tear down multiple times in a row. Like there are people on the internet using 4 white deaths by black men over a 6 month span to compare to police killings.
I think I just want to use the internet for pretty pictures.

SectumSempra fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Aug 23, 2014

# ? Aug 23, 2014 18:58

Gyges: Aug 4, 2004; NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK

SectumSempra posted:

Reading this all is gross,
reading this as a black person is grosser for some reason, but depressingly not surprising.

It's like being in class with the guy who shouts strawman arguments that you tear down multiple times in a row. Like there are people on the internet using 4 white deaths by black men over a 6 month span to compare to police killings.
I think I just want to use the internet for pretty pictures.

I see someone hasn't been set straight by O'Reilly. There's nothing to see in Ferguson, move along.

Bill O'Reilly posted:

So you've got 12 million arrests, 420 police shootings. And they call them homicides. Sometimes they are justifiable. Sometimes they are not. We don't have stat breakdown on how many police were convicted but not many. So this is an infinitesimal situation. It doesn't happen and those people who run in to Ferguson or any other city and say the police are hunting down young black men are lying and they're grossly insulting law enforcement across the country because this stat shows it all, this tells it all.

Just 1.15 people a day shot by the police. That's nothing, why must you keep asking the police to stop doing something they're, statistically, not doing? Also Marijuana, Robbery, Jaywalking, he was a big BLACK.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 19:41

Damiya: Jul 3, 2012

Evidently the pro-Wilson rally soundtrack included ACDC's 'Shoot to Thrill' per @rdevro. you can't make this poo poo up.

he's got tweets with all the details (including a copy of the statement by the leader)

# ? Aug 23, 2014 19:47

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

At least one outlet is talking about police oversight

http://www.voanews.com/content/ferguson-shooting-sparks-interest-in-body-cameras/2423895.html

# ? Aug 23, 2014 19:51

Periodiko: Jan 30, 2005; Uh.

Gyges posted:

Just 1.15 people a day shot by the police. That's nothing, why must you keep asking the police to stop doing something they're, statistically, not doing? Also Marijuana, Robbery, Jaywalking, he was a big BLACK.

On top of that, if something of even a fraction of this scope happened that involved Muslims or illegal aliens they would be up in arms. If literally one white person was murdered by radical muslims in any US town, they'd be up in arms about how Islam was taking over the country and no one is safe and how the federal loving government has to do something about it. It wouldn't even be perceived as a local problem. Hell, this is exactly what happened with the underwear bomber or Ft. Hood.

Strangely, they only seem to do these kind of number crunching cost-benefit analyses when minorities are the ones suffering.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 19:55

SectumSempra: Jun 22, 2011; Bi-Han now we've got Bad Blood

Don't forget the outrage after the cop shot a dog a few months ago.

:allears:

Have to keep the dogs alive just in case we need to use them on those unruly blax

# ? Aug 23, 2014 20:12

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

DO police ever unjustifiably shoot white people? I can't remember ever hearing of an incident like that.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 20:13

Good Citizen: Aug 12, 2008; trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump

Samurai Sanders posted:

DO police ever unjustifiably shoot white people? I can't remember ever hearing of an incident like that.

Do homeless people count?

# ? Aug 23, 2014 20:14

Samurai Sanders: Nov 4, 2003; Pillbug

Good Citizen posted:

Do homeless people count?

Yeah...but I guess I can understand why I wouldn't hear that on the news.

Still, my local newspaper does have lots of articles about the homeless situation here and their interactions with police and such, but I've never seen anything like that. The worst was the state house member from Waikiki going around smashing homeless people's stuff because he can.

Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Aug 23, 2014

# ? Aug 23, 2014 20:16

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:45

Stultus Maximus: Dec 21, 2009; USPOL May

Good Citizen posted:

Do homeless people count?

As people? Not according to many.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 20:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Michael Brown Shooting: No probable cause exists to file any charges

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