D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

The Crotch posted:

So... abilitiy score damage. Is there anything that restores it aside from greater restoration?

Because gently caress, man.

The only example I've seen - the Shadow - only has it last until a rest.

I mean, still, gently caress ability score damage, but...

# ? Aug 24, 2014 01:55

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# ? May 15, 2024 03:16

siggy2021: Mar 8, 2010

AlphaDog posted:

Oh, the book doesn't say when they get to make their escape check or what kind of action it takes, so who loving knows if they have to give up at least one attack or something to get out?

Just to clear this up, the book clearly states under the holder section "escaping a grapple" that a grappled creature can use an action to escape.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 01:58

Generic Octopus: Mar 27, 2010

VacuumJockey posted:

Can me and the guys clear some dungeons and bash some monsters head in without taking an engineering degree? That's what I personally am looking for.

See, this is what I found in dungeon world. And it didn't cost me 150+ dollars for rules and options spread across 3 books. Maybe I'd feel better if I knew Morningstar or whatever it's called would function like DDI (afaik it's just a character builder/campaign manager?) and I could access all 5e content, but the buy-in right now is just too steep compared to what I can get elsewhere for me to bother.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 01:59

A Catastrophe: Jun 26, 2014

Strength of Many posted:

I was thumbing through the PHB and being somewhat content with the game being what it is (cleaned up 3.5) but then I get to the beastiary and...

I don't think I'd ever run this game as a DM. Holy poo poo why did they throw everything decent about 4e encounter design out the window?

Emphasis mine. It's that simple.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 02:00

Strength of Many: Jan 13, 2012; The butthurt is the life... and it shall be mine.

A Catastrophe posted:

Emphasis mine. It's that simple.

That doesn't seem very smart when encounter design, how to budget them, what their defenses/to hit/damage should be at a given level, etc. were one of the best parts of it.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 02:06

OtspIII: Sep 22, 2002

A Catastrophe posted:

Emphasis mine. It's that simple.

I think this is another of those weird multi-stage legacy things. D&D's original incarnation handled balance very very differently than most modern games do, and I feel like 3 rolls with poo poo that 1e did, modifying it a little along the way, and assume it's okay despite the fact that poo poo works super differently now for most groups. Now 5e is doing what 3e did, including the modifications that aren't applicable any more, and are just making it even weirder. The core of the problem, I think, is the 15 minute adventure day.

In Basic, monster/PC balance is impossible. There's not a huge difference between a 3th level fighter who's been knocked down to 8hp and a 1st level fighter at full health, or a 8th level magic user who's down to their last 1st level spell and a 1st level magic user who's fresh to the fight. The effective level of the party drops throughout a dungeon delve, and so it's impossible to anticipate how powerful they'll be when you place any given encounter. Hit-dice and warnings of powerful abilities are pretty much good enough, even though they're not massively more helpful than CR. That was fine, though, since the party was expected to be totally able to run away from any encounters they felt they weren't ready for, in a way that doesn't work nearly so well in a plot-hook-driven campaign.

The problem is, nobody really does the attrition-style dungeon crawl any more. Rope Trick makes resting trivial. Wizards get way way way more spells than they used to, so running out is rarely a threat. Healing is way stronger. Campaigns tend to be less based around dungeons, so it's easier to rest between encounters. All of the sudden it's actually not that hard to guess the power level of a party when you're designing a session's encounters.

5e resembles Basic in some ways. The flat math means that a worn down 5th level fighter (in some ways, not in others--multiple attacks and cantrips and stuff break all this) isn't too different than a fresh 1st level one. You still have the massively different assumptions about campaigns, though, so thinking about balance in 5e in the same way you would in BECMI or 1e doesn't work so well.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 02:24

Strength of Many: Jan 13, 2012; The butthurt is the life... and it shall be mine.

OtspIII posted:

I'm more appalled by monster entries doing absolutely nothing besides making basic attacks.

Well, besides having spells. Because cross-referencing with a completely separate book is something I loved doing in the past..

# ? Aug 24, 2014 02:38

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

AlphaDog posted:

After that, the opponent appears to remain grappled until you let go, it escapes, or something incapacitates you or moves you away. All this really does is reduce their move to 0 (and take away any bonuses to their move speed, for some reason).

I assume this is to head off arguments about "yeah, I know being grappled reduces my move to 0, but if I give myself +10 to speed after being grappled-"

It's kind of cool that a character with multiple attacks can sacrifice a bit of damage to (maybe) impose the Immobilized condition on enemies and prevent those enemies from running by or fleeing or whatever. It's kind of like having an at-will power.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 02:49

Strength of Many: Jan 13, 2012; The butthurt is the life... and it shall be mine.

Eh gently caress it.

I'm going to tenuously try this as a player. Dragonborn Paladin is a go!

... now how do I make the most bullshit Paladin I can?

# ? Aug 24, 2014 02:54

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

siggy2021 posted:

Just to clear this up, the book clearly states under the holder section "escaping a grapple" that a grappled creature can use an action to escape.

It would be kind of nice if all the rules were together - I assumed the "how to escape" part would be in the grappling rules themselves, not in the conditions appendix. Still, my fault for missing it.

Ferrinus posted:

It's kind of cool that a character with multiple attacks can sacrifice a bit of damage to (maybe) impose the Immobilized condition on enemies and prevent those enemies from running by or fleeing or whatever. It's kind of like having an at-will power.

OK, a first level fighter can immobilise (kinda) something no bigger than L with his grapple. A tenth level fighter can... same thing.

This is sort of what I was getting at before when I was talking about abilities that allow myth-style actions rather than "fighter spells".

You could do this by "... for martial characters only, grapple an opponent no bigger than <own size +1> +1 for every five levels". Add a selectable class ability "once per fight, make a STR(Athletics) test to rip a limb of your choice off the thing you have grappled. Does X damage + narrative effects of losing a limb (or, a table of what happens when an arm, leg, wing, or tentacle is removed)". There, a 15th level fighter can maybe rip one wing off one dragon per fight.

Is "once per fight" too dissociated? OK, make it "... when you have an opponent grappled and a further attack of yours hits and deals more than <x% opponent max health> damage, rip off a limb of your choice (table of limb ripped off effects).

It's so loving easy to make the Beowulf-lite they said they were trying to make.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 03:22

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

I mean, there just needs to be a canon of heroic exploits the same way there's a canon of magical effects, each with its own abstracted "level" and idiosyncratic resolution mechanics.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 03:27

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

Look let's not go down the slippery slope here. You let fighters tear off an arm, next they'll want to pull off a head. Instant win? Come on now, let's at least try to protect the wizard's niche.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 03:36

siggy2021: Mar 8, 2010

AlphaDog posted:

It would be kind of nice if all the rules were together - I assumed the "how to escape" part would be in the grappling rules themselves, not in the conditions appendix. Still, my fault for missing it.

That's what I'm trying to say, though. It is under the grappling rules themselves.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 03:44

ritorix: Jul 22, 2007; Vancian Roulette

Strength of Many posted:

That doesn't seem very smart when encounter design, how to budget them, what their defenses/to hit/damage should be at a given level, etc. were one of the best parts of it.

Encounter building and budgeting is basically unchanged from 4e. Building encounters by adding up xp to meet a target number based on desired difficulty and number of party members is still a thing. They added a table about how having numerous monsters can affect difficulty even when the xp value may make it seem easier. And there's no more explicit monster roles.

What isn't there (yet?) is monster building. The MM has a bit on it but not what their defenses/to hit/damage should be at a given level.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 03:51

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

siggy2021 posted:

That's what I'm trying to say, though. It is under the grappling rules themselves.

Yeah, it's me, I'm the idiot. Sorry, no excuse for that one.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 03:51

Jimbozig: Sep 30, 2003; I like sharing and ice cream and animals.

Strength of Many posted:

I'm more appalled by monster entries doing absolutely nothing besides making basic attacks.

Well, besides having spells. Because cross-referencing with a completely separate book is something I loved doing in the past..

Look, fighting a Troll and fighting a Veteran are exactly the same except the Troll has regen. That just makes sense! And of course Lizardfolk are much the same except... get this... the Lizardfolk can hold their breath for a longer time! Helmed Horrors are the same except they are immune to whatever spells the DM thinks the Wizard is likely to have (suck it, nerd!).

And none of them do anything but multi-attack every round.

Strength of Many posted:

Eh gently caress it.

I'm going to tenuously try this as a player. Dragonborn Paladin is a go!

... now how do I make the most bullshit Paladin I can?

See, I think you've got the right attitude. It sounds fun to play with some character that can bend the game in some way whether that's through absurd char-op or by simply picking a caster. I'm not going to go looking for a game of it, but I'd play if my friends invited me. Would I run it? Hell no.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 04:11

A Catastrophe: Jun 26, 2014

ritorix posted:

Encounter building and budgeting is basically unchanged from 4e. Building encounters by adding up xp to meet a target number based on desired difficulty and number of party members is still a thing. They added a table about how having numerous monsters can affect difficulty even when the xp value may make it seem easier. And there's no more explicit monster roles.

The monsters aren't balanced, the classes aren't balanced, and hence, the encounter building is not like 4e at all. It certainly isn't 'basically unchanged'.

3e had a fake, made up, not real encounter building system, but it was fake and made up and not real. 5e in theory has more manageable math, but in practice, every monster will be a bag of hit points with an MBA, or a pile of special clauses that demand system mastery.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 04:43

treeboy: Nov 13, 2004; James T. Kirk was a great man, but that was another life.

siggy2021 posted:

Page 174 of the PHB under ability checks. It's also in the basic PDF's somewhere too.

sorry last page, but thanks, it was driving me crazy and my PHB was at home so I was trying to search via texts with friends. Really appreciate it.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 04:56

treeboy: Nov 13, 2004; James T. Kirk was a great man, but that was another life.

double post

# ? Aug 24, 2014 04:57

DalaranJ: Apr 15, 2008; Yosuke will now die for you.

ritorix posted:

What isn't there (yet?) is monster building. The MM has a bit on it but not what their defenses/to hit/damage should be at a given level.

Is it possible or likely that they would put this in the DMG? I just don't know anymore.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 05:06

ritorix: Jul 22, 2007; Vancian Roulette

DalaranJ posted:

Is it possible or likely that they would put this in the DMG? I just don't know anymore.

The MM has a blurb "for advice on how to customize creatures and calculate their CR, see the DMG".

# ? Aug 24, 2014 05:17

Glazius: Jul 22, 2007; Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.; Clapping Larry

AlphaDog posted:

This is what I don't get. The game shows promise of doing awesome or interesting things (in this case, a dude can have a skeleton army) and the game's fans immediately start saying how they'd shut it down.

Not the people who have pre-decided to hate the game. The actual fans who say they love the rules immediately start talking about changing the rules so the things that happen because of those rules won't happen. It's the weirdest attitude*.

"You can play as a dude with a skeleton army", "You can be, like, 14 bears", and "If you're careful, you can use spells to become a dragon" should be regarded as features. I feel like they would have been back in the OD&D days. If you don't like that sort of thing, that's cool - but it means that you don't actually like this game.

*Well, not in TTRPGs. But in any other industry it would look weird as hell.

Honestly it's a bit of a trap choice. The skeleton army, I mean. Sure, a gang is attractive, and it is effectively +1-harm and +1-armor, but at the level you can get a small gang of skeletons, the Fighter IS a small gang. Pretty much the same with a medium and a large gang too, though I think the Fighter technically leads on that front.

And, I mean, the Fighter doesn't need to be fed magic. The Fighter doesn't have any problem with holy places. The Fighter doesn't constantly have to roll to order himself around, and the Fighter actually understands the concept of mercy. Also, he can bring that power to the point of a sword, which is way better for going aggro on somebody -- when you come down to it, Rolfball only really has to fight through one skeleton at a time, right?

I mean, you can heal your gang up easier, so you've got that going for you. And it's not like your MC is going to just go "oh, two large gangs, I think I'll only throw enough at them for one large gang". So you'll have something to do. But if the Fighter decides to do Demense, he can GET a second large gang, in addition to himself, of knights and men-at-arms. Who also have no problem with holy places, understand mercy, and eat plain ol' food.

Just saying. Talk it over with your Fighter, see where he's going. Maybe you want to build another way.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 05:34

Strength of Many: Jan 13, 2012; The butthurt is the life... and it shall be mine.

I've been talking about this elsewhere and I really wish 5e at least had, bare minimum, Minion rules and Swarms/Units. That would fix so much that's wrong with building giant skeleton-thug-hectopeasant units. If they're all forced into the same blob that can only make its one token attack, albeit one with suitable damage to represent that massed attack or volley, it wouldn't be able to destroy the action economy of the game.

And well, minions because gently caress having to hit a CR 1/2 monster twice when you're a 20th level Fighter.

Didn't 4e also have some rules for level 20" about 'you do not take damage from enemies if their levels are too low' or was that strictly an NPC thing?

Jimbozig posted:

Look, fighting a Troll and fighting a Veteran are exactly the same except the Troll has regen. That just makes sense! And of course Lizardfolk are much the same except... get this... the Lizardfolk can hold their breath for a longer time! Helmed Horrors are the same except they are immune to whatever spells the DM thinks the Wizard is likely to have (suck it, nerd!).

And none of them do anything but multi-attack every round.

See, I think you've got the right attitude. It sounds fun to play with some character that can bend the game in some way whether that's through absurd char-op or by simply picking a caster. I'm not going to go looking for a game of it, but I'd play if my friends invited me. Would I run it? Hell no.

And, yeah. I'll go ahead and play it but I'm not touching the DM's chair until I see them put out something sane for this mess. What's the point of a Monster Manual if I have to homebrew every single encounter so they do something more interesting than Full Attack and don't one-shot players a quarter or half the game's level curve.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 06:04

VacuumJockey: Jun 6, 2011; by R. Guyovich

Generic Octopus posted:

See, this is what I found in dungeon world. And it didn't cost me 150+ dollars for rules and options spread across 3 books. Maybe I'd feel better if I knew Morningstar or whatever it's called would function like DDI (afaik it's just a character builder/campaign manager?) and I could access all 5e content, but the buy-in right now is just too steep compared to what I can get elsewhere for me to bother.

I have Dungeon World, but I can't get anyone to play it with me. Our club don't do new and innovative, so I'm pretty much limited to some variant of D&D or Savage Worlds. Cost is not an issue in this case though, as we have a bulging club treasury.

As for Morningstar, hopefully it will be good - but if not, I'm doing pretty well with a combo of Roll20, Evernote, Wizardawn, and my trusty iPad.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 09:48

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Strength of Many posted:

Didn't 4e also have some rules for level 20" about 'you do not take damage from enemies if their levels are too low' or was that strictly an NPC thing?

NPCs (specifically, gods) only IIRC. BUt it also had encounter and adventure design that acknowledged that even though yes, technically, an army of level 1 minions armed with longbows might be able to damage a level 30 PC, who cares, the PC is just not going to bother with them, if he doesn't elect to loving kill the lot of them. Or, that army will instead become an at-level Swarm monster.

This stuff has been an issue (or at least, a potential one) with 5e's bounded accuracy right from the start - if AC caps at a relatively low number, relatively lovely creatures can still hit and damage the Tarrasque.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 09:57

Hwurmp: May 20, 2005

Glazius posted:

And, I mean, the Fighter doesn't need to be fed magic.

He does have to wear it instead of eating it, that's true.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 12:06

LongDarkNight: Oct 25, 2010; It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.; Oven Wrangler

Jack the Lad posted:

I've done a bunch more work on my sheet, including transcribing the stat blocks of every monster of the DM Basic and Hoard of the Dragon Queen Supplement PDFs by hand for easier analysis.

You can find it here but you'll need to File -> Make a copy before you can tinker with it.

I've included the chance for each monster to make each kind of save against a PC of level = CR, and it turns out the best chance anything has to save against its lowest save is 40%.

A Stone Golem (described as 'nearly impervious to spells') can never pass an Int or Cha save from a PC caster and has a 28% chance of making a Dex save and a 36% chance of making a Wis save - after taking into account its advantage against magic.

Hey Jack, your spreadsheet is down.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 13:48

Jack the Lad: Jan 20, 2009; Feed the Pubs

So 5e Barbarians who go the Berserker route have a feature that lets them go Super Saiyan 2 by upgrading their Rage to a Frenzy. This lets them make an extra attack as a bonus action on each of their turns, but when the Frenzy ends they gain a level of Exhaustion, which is a Really Big Deal:

Especially as it takes a Long Rest to recover from the effects of each and every individual level of Exhaustion. Consider that the DM guidelines recommend 6-8 encounters per day, have a look at that chart and think about how often you'll want to use that particular feature.

Meanwhile, the Polearm Master feat also allows you to make an extra attack as a bonus action. You have to wield a Glaive or Halberd, which means you deal 1.5 less damage per attack than if you were using a Maul, and the extra attack only deals d4 damage, which is 4.5 less, but let's face it - the whole point of extra attacks is to apply your Strength (5) and Great Weapon Master (10) static damage mods an additional time, and you can Polearm Master All Day.

LongDarkNight posted:

Hey Jack, your spreadsheet is down.

Oops, sorry. Here's the latest version.

Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Aug 24, 2014

# ? Aug 24, 2014 13:48

Jimbozig: Sep 30, 2003; I like sharing and ice cream and animals.

Yeah, it seems like picking Berserker is actually a big nerf to raging. Which is pretty funny.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 15:16

slydingdoor: Oct 26, 2010; Are you in or are you out?

Which barbarian build can kill itself faster, the eagle totem barb who can fly straight up and fall back down or the frenzy barb who can just waste 6 rages and exhaust themselves to death?

# ? Aug 24, 2014 15:49

Nihilarian: Oct 2, 2013

Is there a spell that heals exhaustion?

# ? Aug 24, 2014 15:56

Jack the Lad: Jan 20, 2009; Feed the Pubs

slydingdoor posted:

Which barbarian build can kill itself faster, the eagle totem barb who can fly straight up and fall back down or the frenzy barb who can just waste 6 rages and exhaust themselves to death?

At level 17, when you gain the requisite 6 rages, you'll have 158 HP if Con was your 14 at character creation and you haven't boosted it since.

Each turn you can move and dash to get 80 feet up into the air, meaning when you end your turn you take 8d6 fall damage - an average of 28. That's halved by the resistance to bludgeoning damage that you gain while raging, through, so it'll take you 12 turns on average to do the job with fall damage.

Beginning or ending a rage is a bonus action, so it will also take 12 rounds to rage yourself to death - a tie!

Nihilarian posted:

Is there a spell that heals exhaustion?

Of course! Greater Restoration, a level 5 Bard/Cleric/Druid spell, reduces the target's exhaustion by 1 step.

Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Aug 24, 2014

# ? Aug 24, 2014 16:01

Sage Genesis: Aug 14, 2014; OG Murderhobo

Jimbozig posted:

Yeah, it seems like picking Berserker is actually a big nerf to raging. Which is pretty funny.

On the other hand, at level 15 you never have to stop raging. You'll end it just before you go to sleep, which restores the exhaustion. Then next day you wake up, go into a frenzy and then have a frenzied wash, some frenzied breakfast, and walk along the road frenzied while whistling a frenzied tune. All a rage does it prevent you from casting spells, big deal. You can still do any other task normally.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 16:20

Jack the Lad: Jan 20, 2009; Feed the Pubs

Sage Genesis posted:

On the other hand, at level 15 you never have to stop raging. You'll end it just before you go to sleep, which restores the exhaustion. Then next day you wake up, go into a frenzy and then have a frenzied wash, some frenzied breakfast, and walk along the road frenzied while whistling a frenzied tune. All a rage does it prevent you from casting spells, big deal. You can still do any other task normally.

Unfortunately Persistent Rage means your rage ends early only if you choose for it to do so (i.e. not if you can't hit something for a round). It still only lasts 1 minute per use.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 16:31

SmellOfPetroleum: Jan 6, 2013

Jack the Lad posted:

Of course! Greater Restoration, a level 5 Bard/Cleric/Druid spell, reduces the target's exhaustion by 1 step.

From the DM Basic Rules there's also the Potion of Vitality, which cures all exhaustion/disease/poison and maxes any rolled HD used for recovery for 24 hours. I assume there will be a lot of these in any berserker barbarian game or a lesser version.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 17:01

Obligatum VII: May 5, 2014; Haunting you until no 8 arrives.

Jack the Lad posted:

Unfortunately Persistent Rage means your rage ends early only if you choose for it to do so (i.e. not if you can't hit something for a round). It still only lasts 1 minute per use.

A shame. The idea of an always angry barbarian just seems so... right.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 17:16