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Paramemetic posted:Jews are cool, and a lot of Lodges have a solid Jewish representation, sometimes more than Christian, depending on the region, because some Christians get weird about it. Gotcha, thanks for the extensive clarification.
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Aug 25, 2014 23:10
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Since it came up, has there been any progress on the handful of states that still don't recognize Prince Hall lodges? I'm in SC and this thread has piqued my interest in masonry but I'm reluctant to explore it while that's an issue. Specifically, I don't want to be visiting a lodge in a non-backwater and find myself obligated to leave because some Prince Hall guys are there and irregular to my lodge. Didn't someone have a story similar to that earlier in the thread?
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Aug 25, 2014 23:16
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PrinceRandom posted:What's the history of Jews like with Freemasonry? It seemed to be a primarily a Protestant thing at the beginning. Hi. I'm a Jewish Freemason. The degree work uses the building of Solomon's Temple, so it's all good.
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Aug 25, 2014 23:16
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The Proc posted:Since it came up, has there been any progress on the handful of states that still don't recognize Prince Hall lodges? I'm in SC and this thread has piqued my interest in masonry but I'm reluctant to explore it while that's an issue. Interesting, I'd never actually thought through the ramifications of sitting in lodge in a another jurisdiction who'd recognized another GL that my own hadn't. Since I hold membership in two jurisdictions, there are probably some scenarios where I'd run afoul of this myself. Ignorance being a good defense, I'm not going to compare MT and NM's recognition books side by side unless I have to. My gut reaction is that while you're a guest in a lodge of another jurisdiction, you'd take your cues from them and their GL, at least for the duration of a single meeting. This puts you in the bind of violating the letter of your obligations though and excusing yourself from the meeting would be proper, if inescapably rude. You'd have the cold comfort that you were doing the right thing. In a perfect world the issue wouldn't come up - there shouldn't be a set of circumstances where Grand Lodge A recognizes Grand Lodge B & C, but B & C don't recognize each other, allowing for things like newly formed Grand Lodges and the time it takes for recognition proceedings to work through the bureaucracy. The GL of MT just recognized the PH GL of Maryland, and already recognizes several others, so the situation is improving in some places, albeit slowly and incrementally. Hopefully it's something no one has to worry about in a few decades. You could also use the possibility of the scenario as a reason to proactively pester your GL about recognition? I understand that that might be an unrewarding and unpleasant labor though. I always figured that if work takes me to the south east I'd affiliate with a Prince Hall lodge instead of an A/F&M, if they'd have me. Edit: Which I know doesn't help you any, sorry. Glorified Scrivener fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 00:30
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Colonial Air Force posted:Hi. I'm a Jewish Freemason. Are you in any of the appendant bodies? There are certain degrees in the York and Scottish Rites that I think would be difficult for a Jewish Mason to go through in good conscience. Well, the York Rite degrees obviously, but I'm just curious if you've been through the YR or SR degrees.
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Aug 26, 2014 02:24
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My hall has quite a few Hindus and we get visitors from India at least once a year. No black men that I've met though we do have quite a few Mexican Americans.
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Aug 26, 2014 04:17
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PrinceRandom posted:What's the history of Jews like with Freemasonry? It seemed to be a primarily a Protestant thing at the beginning. There were a couple of Jewish fellas in there at the very beginning in England, as I recall. Basically it's 'so what, they're jews. Let 'em in' with a few lodges blackballing them and others not giving a gently caress. Also, since it ties into the earlier conversation, the recognition of Prince Hall freemasonry outside America is much, much more limited. We don't recognize them here in the GL of NSW&ACT, but that's not due to malice - it's because there are no Prince Hall masons in Australia and any black freemasons are just part of the 'regular' fraternal order here. To be frank it seems a bit of a silly divide to still have from a foreign perspective, but I can understand why both sides are reluctant to just merge. I'd be interested in attending a PH third degree sometime, if I ever visit America, to see how it differs from the mainstream American third degree and how both differ from the Australian one.
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Aug 26, 2014 05:43
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The Proc posted:Since it came up, has there been any progress on the handful of states that still don't recognize Prince Hall lodges? I'm in SC and this thread has piqued my interest in masonry but I'm reluctant to explore it while that's an issue. Unironically join Prince Hall.
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Aug 26, 2014 08:26
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COOL CORN posted:Are you in any of the appendant bodies? There are certain degrees in the York and Scottish Rites that I think would be difficult for a Jewish Mason to go through in good conscience. Well, the York Rite degrees obviously, but I'm just curious if you've been through the YR or SR degrees. I'm in Scottish Rite, it was fine. I'm not in York Rite for the reasons you're probably aware of.
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Aug 26, 2014 12:03
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The Proc posted:Since it came up, has there been any progress on the handful of states that still don't recognize Prince Hall lodges? I'm in SC and this thread has piqued my interest in masonry but I'm reluctant to explore it while that's an issue. I got my EA and FC in WV, then demitted to Ohio for my MM, and WV not recognizing Prince Hall caused some issues with that. WV actually stopped recognizing Ohio as legitimate because Ohio recognized Prince Hall, and as such it was difficult to demit. I did my MM as courtesy work in an Ohio lodge (that I'm now a member of), and they were initially very hesitant to allow me due to the bad blood between the two states. There's a longer and fascinating story of the very dramatic beginning of that situation which I can type up tonight if y'all want. The very short version is that, as usual, it was caused my racist members and not the system. It just so happened that the racist members were grand lodge officers.
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Aug 26, 2014 13:40
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Emron posted:I got my EA and FC in WV, then demitted to Ohio for my MM, and WV not recognizing Prince Hall caused some issues with that. WV actually stopped recognizing Ohio as legitimate because Ohio recognized Prince Hall, and as such it was difficult to demit. I did my MM as courtesy work in an Ohio lodge (that I'm now a member of), and they were initially very hesitant to allow me due to the bad blood between the two states. My understanding of the WV-OH spat was that it was mainly about the issue of ex-PGM Frank Haas. The way it went down in my understanding is that WV PGM Frank Haas had made some pretty sweeping reform by edict as GM. I know a lot of those reforms were things like having the US Flag in Lodge, admitting people with disabilities or deformities from war, and some other things like that. I didn't know PG recognition was part of that, was it? Anyhow, when Frank Haas' tenure as GM ended, incoming GM Gregory Riley expelled Haas and his closer supporters and officers by edict, cleaned house on the officers of his mother lodge who opposed it (and I believe revoked their charter), and reversed by edict all of Haas' reforms. Haas had a house in Steubenville, OH, and was put through the degrees again in a special one day class for him at Steubenville. My Masonic mentor was present and had the pleasure of shaking PGM Haas' hand and telling him that if he really applies himself, he might just make something of himself in Masonry. Anyhow, West Virginia revoked recognition of Ohio, claiming that Ohio had stepped onto their jurisdiction and was not recognizing their sovereignty. Ohio never derecognized WV, and this was largely a "at the highest level" thing, as on the SE Ohio-WV Border there was "off the records" attendance on both sides by members from the other to help fill lines for degree work and so on. It was made a lot more bitter because Haas sued WV GL AF&AM, resulting in a sort of a draw where the court said WV was in the wrong for expelling him based on the grounds provided, but recognized the WV GM's absolute right to do it regardless of whether or not the reasoning was just or sound. I know this because I grew up in WV but became a Mason in Ohio, and to this date I still have not sat in Lodge in my hometown, because it's only in the last 2 years or so that it's resolved itself (Ohio revoked their recognition of Haas as a Mason). It's interesting to hear about it from a WV perspective because I've never communicated Masonically with a WV Mason, so I'd like to hear the story from your perspective. I don't think I'm clandestine in WV anymore since OH basically backpedaled on the whole thing and I believe WV and OH are back on good terms, so it'd be good to hear about this. Unless, of course, this was another issue of derecognition, or a more recent issue (I'm a MD Mason now as well, so I really only follow MD AF&AM news, not so much OH F&AM news anymore). I know WV derecognized a bunch of states when they originally recognized PG, but extended recognition again when it got to the point that they were no longer in good standing with the Conference of Grand Masters in North America as a result of not recognizing most of the assembly. Actually, WV has derecognized everyone so many times that it's hard to keep track and we might be talking about different derecognitions of Ohio at different times. WV AF&AM is kind of the North Korea of Masonry, in that regard, bless them. I do hope to sit in Wheeling Lodge No. 1 someday.
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Aug 26, 2014 14:14
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Paramemetic posted:My understanding of the WV-OH spat was that it was mainly about the issue of ex-PGM Frank Haas. The way it went down in my understanding is that WV PGM Frank Haas had made some pretty sweeping reform by edict as GM. I know a lot of those reforms were things like having the US Flag in Lodge, admitting people with disabilities or deformities from war, and some other things like that. I didn't know PG recognition was part of that, was it? Anyhow, when Frank Haas' tenure as GM ended, incoming GM Gregory Riley expelled Haas and his closer supporters and officers by edict, cleaned house on the officers of his mother lodge who opposed it (and I believe revoked their charter), and reversed by edict all of Haas' reforms. You've got a lot more in depth knowledge on it than I do. My father is a 33rd in the valley of Steubenville, but is a blue member in WV. I heard it all secondhand from him. The version I heard was that the GM of WV visited Haas for his father getting his fifty year pin. Haas offered honors to the WV GM by offering the gavel. He took it, gaveled the lodge to order, seated his officers, and held a Masonic trial where he found Haas as in violation or whatever. It sounded super dramatic, but I was not a brother at that point so it was secondhand. I had heard the "sweeping reforms" bit, and I think that recognizing PH was a part of that. Regardless, the whole spat was embarrassing and I'm glad the states are on speaking terms again. Thanks for the insight, brother! That was cool to see more into it. Emron fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 14:35
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Emron posted:You've got a lot more in depth knowledge on it than I do. My father is a 33rd in the valley of Steubenville, but is a blue member in WV. I heard it all secondhand from him. I would not be surprised if that happened, because that is exactly what I'd heard he did at Frank Haas' mother lodge. My understanding is he rolled up with his officers after having been asked to resolve some issues resulting from Frank's expulsion. When they offered him the gavel, he took it, then expelled half the lodge by edict, revoked the charter, then took the charter with him and left.
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Aug 26, 2014 14:39
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Paramemetic posted:I would not be surprised if that happened, because that is exactly what I'd heard he did at Frank Haas' mother lodge. My understanding is he rolled up with his officers after having been asked to resolve some issues resulting from Frank's expulsion. When they offered him the gavel, he took it, then expelled half the lodge by edict, revoked the charter, then took the charter with him and left. I always describe the Masonic philosophy as "don't be a dick, but especially don't be a dick to a mason." This fuckin guy broke the code.
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Aug 26, 2014 14:59
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Yeah that's so un-Masonic, it's like the perfect example to use as "this is the opposite of a Mason."
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Aug 26, 2014 15:06
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It can't be unmasonic if he's the Grandmaster amirite??? But yeah it was an unfortunate time in WV's Masonic history. Similarly, Ohio was probably in the wrong putting Frank through the degrees after he'd been expelled. Technically, it's true, Ohio had the right to bring him up after WV expelled him, but it was a clear and deliberate act of disregard for WV's masonic jurisdiction, no matter how abusive WV was being.
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Aug 26, 2014 15:09
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Paramemetic posted:I would not be surprised if that happened, because that is exactly what I'd heard he did at Frank Haas' mother lodge. My understanding is he rolled up with his officers after having been asked to resolve some issues resulting from Frank's expulsion. When they offered him the gavel, he took it, then expelled half the lodge by edict, revoked the charter, then took the charter with him and left. Holy cow, what a fuckhead. So as far as you know all of this bad blood is settled now?
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Aug 26, 2014 17:27
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My understanding is that we're back in mutual recognition after a new Ohio GM caved and declared Frank's second raising etc. to have been improper, since you can only receive the work once.
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Aug 26, 2014 17:57
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Paramemetic posted:I would not be surprised if that happened, because that is exactly what I'd heard he did at Frank Haas' mother lodge. My understanding is he rolled up with his officers after having been asked to resolve some issues resulting from Frank's expulsion. When they offered him the gavel, he took it, then expelled half the lodge by edict, revoked the charter, then took the charter with him and left. Good god. That makes he difficulties my lodge has with the Grand Lodge seem downright tame.
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Aug 26, 2014 19:48
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It really was some Red Wedding poo poo.
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Aug 26, 2014 20:28
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Glorified Scrivener posted:I always figured that if work takes me to the south east I'd affiliate with a Prince Hall lodge instead of an A/F&M, if they'd have me.
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Aug 27, 2014 04:54
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Paramemetic posted:I would not be surprised if that happened, because that is exactly what I'd heard he did at Frank Haas' mother lodge. My understanding is he rolled up with his officers after having been asked to resolve some issues resulting from Frank's expulsion. When they offered him the gavel, he took it, then expelled half the lodge by edict, revoked the charter, then took the charter with him and left. Wow. Even being on the other side of the globe this hurts my masonic heart just reading it. In a way, he is lucky to having been able to leave with all his limbs, on the other hand it says something about the respect for masonic authority they actually let him do all this without throwing a chair at him or something. I mean, how the hell did he get his hands on the charter to begin with? About Prince Hall, if they are recognized by the GLoE then they are recognized by us as well. It is pretty straightforward to be honest. Something else, but I might be visiting Hong Kong sometimes in the not to distant future and I found a British lodge there. The requirements here are puzzling, any of you know more? quote:Overseas visitors
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Aug 27, 2014 09:02
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Keetron posted:I mean, how the hell did he get his hands on the charter to begin with? In our lodge, the charter is kept on display in front of the WM's dais with the swords, for any brother to inspect at will (though obviously he must salute, etc, and state intentions since it's on the dais) before, during or after lodge. So if it's like ours, he just plain picked it up and left with it.
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Aug 27, 2014 12:37
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As the Grandmaster it is at his pleasure that a charter exists at all. He is free to revoke it, and at that point it belongs to him.
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Aug 27, 2014 12:40
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Is anyone here in co-masonry?
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Aug 28, 2014 04:34
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This is the Masonry thread.
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Aug 28, 2014 10:26
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legsarerequired posted:Is anyone here in co-masonry? I don't recall seeing anyone post to the thread who was involved in co-masonry. I think we're mostly stuffy old UGLE recognizing types.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:34
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It was discussed but since the vast majority of us in this thread not only do not but can not recognize co-masons as masons, nor discuss masonry with them, it was more or less decided that it's better to keep this thread about regular lodges and appendant bodies.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:44
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Though that's not to say that we don't have opinions on it. But like Parametric said, we are literally obligated to not recognize it.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:53
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Paramemetic posted:It was discussed but since the vast majority of us in this thread not only do not but can not recognize co-masons as masons, nor discuss masonry with them, it was more or less decided that it's better to keep this thread about regular lodges and appendant bodies. Ah, well, lapse of memory, apologies. NPR had a fairly decent piece on the Craft on All Things yesterday. The amount of crazy in the comment thread is even fairly restrained, as far as these things usually go.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:59
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My wife sent that to me earlier today, it was pretty good. I wonder if any of our Washington brothers are familiar with that lodge?
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Aug 28, 2014 16:05
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zapplez posted:Any Ontario masons in this thread? Preferablly Durham Region or Kawartha lakes area? Shot in the dark I know. Thinking about joining up but have some questions. Ontario Mason here, but south-western ON, Kitchener-Waterloo area. Feel free to PM me though and I'll do my best to answer any questions. edit: Just submitted my application to join the Scottish Rite. More light!
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Aug 28, 2014 20:30
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legsarerequired posted:Is anyone here in co-masonry? Seeing how some here are in favor of welcoming transmen, not being in fellowship with women and comasons smacks of partisanship. It seems that petty feuds linked to tradition have a lot of weight. Ps. I planned on bringing up comasons when I got back but thought better of it after considering the context.
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Aug 28, 2014 21:50
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Transmen are men, we are a men's organization. You weren't meant to return, please take into consideration that essentially everyone has asked you to stop posting in here, Sithsaber.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:06
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legsarerequired posted:Is anyone here in co-masonry? SUFFER NOT THE XENOS TO LIVE
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Aug 29, 2014 02:34
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WAFFLEHOUND posted:Transmen are men, we are a men's organization. You weren't meant to return, please take into consideration that essentially everyone has asked you to stop posting in here, Sithsaber. I'll leave this thread with the common sense statement that the men only rule was made during the era of man=penis. If we are not going by that basic tenant, everything else involving the roles of the sexes needs to be jettisoned. On the other hand I should forget about the philosophy and solely focus on the social club aspects of freemasonry. Nobody wants the wives to interfere with sharing beer and bbq. At this juncture I've sadly written you guys off as a vestige of fraternity culture. The ideals and norms of your lineage are hopelessly diluted, and back in the day I probably would have sided with the blacks (hall) the commies and the esoteric syncretists. Do what pleases you regardless of my opinion. Sithsaber fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Aug 29, 2014 |
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Aug 29, 2014 04:01
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You should stay, you're a rare and aberrant breed of whackjob and dealing with the regular selection of NWO/Secret Rulers Of The World wonks makes one hunger for variety.
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Aug 29, 2014 04:06
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Sithsaber posted:I'll leave this thread with the common sense statement that the men only rule was made during the era of man=penis. If we are not going by that basic tenant, everything else involving the roles of the sexes needs to be jettisoned. On the other hand I should forget about the philosophy and solely focus on the social club aspects of freemasonry. Nobody wants the wives to interfere with sharing beer and bbq. That was a great freshman english paragraph; I tip my trilby at you.
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Aug 29, 2014 04:09
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I love the part where he blames the social aspect despite every drat actual Mason in thread mentioning that it is a ritualistic requirement that cannot be compromised on. But yes, fear of an XX barbecue keeps us a megafrat.
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Aug 29, 2014 04:11
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Mr. Maltose posted:I love the part where he blames the social aspect despite every drat actual Mason in thread mentioning that it is a ritualistic requirement that cannot be compromised on. But yes, fear of an XX barbecue keeps us a megafrat. The ritual is basically anathema to the idea that gender is a construct and that sex is nuanced. Transexuality is utterly foreign to the belief in man's place in the spiritual hierarchy. That's why I call your ritual diluted. Something can't be sacrosanct and relative at the same friggin' time.
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Aug 29, 2014 04:16
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